Does GD Breed Wild Children? - Page 4

[peaceful_mama]

Depends.  I've seen people take it too far.  I don't think children learn to respect anyone or anything through having every last whim catered to.  That said, the younger they are, the shorter the wait shall be---my older kids know that the 2 year old gets the first drink poured, ice cream cone made, whatever "because he's little and can't wait"  (as well!)  I don't think they learn a darn thing through being allowed to be loud in places where quiet is the expectation, or snacking in eating-prohibited places.  I have young children.  They eat before and after and survive just fine.  When we go to someone else's home, I expect them to do things like remove shoes at the door, listen to the adults there and respect their rules for their home.  Simple.  That said, I just plain out do not take my 2 year old to the library because he's NOT quiet, and I consider that part of GD....don't take them into environments where they most likely won't do well in the first place.

Oh..and if we take toys into a place with lots of other kids, like a playground, we share.  They do not HAVE to bring a treasured item into the mix.  It can stay home or in the car.  But I don't see what positive thing they learn from other kids ending up sad.  We make that decision *before* we're confronted with the other child who thinks their treasures look cool too.

I also have found that my own comfort level plays a huge part in how well *they* do....I just don't take all 4 of them places where I'm not confident it's going to go well.  They sense that, and it doesn't.

And I just plain out don't do things I hate--like taking more than one of them to the grocery store.  I just don't do it.  ;)  I'd rather have several root canals.

Lately I am happily getting tons of "discipline miles" out of the fact that I control the computer passwords.  Also my DD especially responds to natural stuff like "well, you (or you and your sibling) made a mess at dinner, now you (all who were involved) are going to clean it up"  She's FOUR, of course I help, but she is there working alongside me before she gets to go off and play.  Sure, they have the option of saying 'no' but until they've done that or helped with something, I'm not typing in a password  ;)

My other biggest and hardest thing is delivery.  These 'edicts' CANNOT be delivered in an angry way.  If I'm very matter-of-fact "nope, not now, we need to clean up your mess'  it happens.  If I'm ticked off and show it, it's a battle.

[mntnmom]

  I'm sorry, but in my understanding, what your friend was doing was not GD. There *is* discipline, it's just gentle. I am no expert, and still struggle with it myself. GD would be explaining to the child that the menu is set, and maybe giving him a special day where he can have more input. And then letting them finish their tantrum in their room and have a sandwich!!  It sounds to me like you're using GD and not even realizing it. :)

Originally Posted by philomom 

Yes, I think it does. When you know there very little consequence for your actions.. you tend to get away with what you can.

One of my friend's kids was being GD'ed and he could throw a tantrum and get his way for the most crazy things. My friend would claim she was just "listening to him or respecting him as a person" but it entailed her going to the supermarket at 5:45 p.m. because he wanted a certain dinner menu that night.

If my kids had thrown the same tantrum, I would have sent them to their room to calm down and then shown them the appropriate other dinner choices like a peanut butter sandwich or a bowl of cereal. Not even my hubby can alter the dinner menu that late in the day.

[sosurreal09]

I firmly believe all children need discipline and a LOT OF IT. I also believe in very infrequent (if at all) punishment (never physical). The most important thing you can do to encourage discipline is to meet every and all needs under a y/o. Be completely attached and hold/wear the baby often. Never leave them to cry and above all things respect them for the people they are. My DD really was very high needs and used to scream-bloody-murder no lie 4+ hrs a day until she was 6 m/o then it was still like 2hrs a day until a year. This was all while holding or wearing her and offering the breast any and every thing we tried to no avail BUT I never gave up on her, always met her needs to the best of my ability and showed her all the love I could. I was very patient and loving even though it was the most stressful and hardest year of my life!

After a year you do the same things but you need to add discipline. Always try to just distract first. You need to be firm, get off your butt, and actually show them "we don't touch the stove it is hot" then take them to the living room and give them a toy and some one on one time, for example. At every age and stage though you must remember what their limits are. Don't expect them to not act their age.

Always cheer them on and give them praise when they listen or are being "good". At 20 m/o my DD loves to color, she colors on the paper I tell her she is doing a great job, she colors on the wall I tell her we don't do that we only color on the paper and take the crayons. She throws a fit and I hold her, tell her I love her, and read a book to connect with her and distract her.

My DD is not old enough to fully give an answer I suppose but b/c she was AP'd she wants to please me and DH and she listens remarkably well. People comment all the time at how well she listens/well behaved she is. I am firm with her when I need to be but I always explain why we can't do x and never leave her to a fit by herself. She hardly has any fits. She started that phase (and I'm sure there is more to come) and I just held her threw them and validated her feelings. She does not fear me but she and I have a mutual respect and she knows when I "mean business" and always responds right away. I like to use uhuh in a high tone when she is getting into things she shouldn't be and danger for the dangerous things. I rarely tell her no and when I do she knows to stay away from it. Also if she starts running away from me and we are out or something I call her name firmly in a very serious voice and she just sits right down and waits for me to go get her (she just instinctively started doing that on her own). She has never had a hitting, kicking, biting issue either, actually shares really well too... I know that those phases are totally normal though and I always expected them.

My personal opinion is that if you really AP your baby and you are firm but gentle with your toddler you will have to discipline less and less and have a great kid who really listens to you. You will have respect for each other and trust. A child who wants to please and has reason to will. A child in fear of punishment is afraid, does not respect you, and does not trust you. A child who is not disciplined has no boundaries and no direction and will be chaotic. Discipline is healthy, attachment is healthy, and respect is healthy, children need all of those things.

[1love4ever]

sosurreal09 I think you made some excellent points and have some wonderful methods.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by peaceful_mama 

my older kids know that the 2 year old gets the first drink poured, ice cream cone made, whatever "because he's little and can't wait" 

I, personally, don't think it's a good idea to always let the same child go first. It teaches them nothing. So many of us expected so much of our first child when they become a sibling because they seemed so big, and then we end up treating our youngest as a baby for years longer than appropriate because they always seem small!

Two is old enough to understand that you can be second and not die. It's old enough to start to learn to wait.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

I firmly believe all children need discipline and a LOT OF IT. I also believe in very infrequent (if at all) punishment (never physical). The most important thing you can do to encourage discipline is to meet every and all needs under a y/o. Be completely attached and hold/wear the baby often. Never leave them to cry and above all things respect them for the people they are. My DD really was very high needs and used to scream-bloody-murder no lie 4+ hrs a day until she was 6 m/o then it was still like 2hrs a day until a year. This was all while holding or wearing her and offering the breast any and every thing we tried to no avail BUT I never gave up on her, always met her needs to the best of my ability and showed her all the love I could. I was very patient and loving even though it was the most stressful and hardest year of my life!

After a year you do the same things but you need to add discipline. Always try to just distract first. You need to be firm, get off your butt, and actually show them "we don't touch the stove it is hot" then take them to the living room and give them a toy and some one on one time, for example. At every age and stage though you must remember what their limits are. Don't expect them to not act their age.

Always cheer them on and give them praise when they listen or are being "good". At 20 m/o my DD loves to color, she colors on the paper I tell her she is doing a great job, she colors on the wall I tell her we don't do that we only color on the paper and take the crayons. She throws a fit and I hold her, tell her I love her, and read a book to connect with her and distract her.

My DD is not old enough to fully give an answer I suppose but b/c she was AP'd she wants to please me and DH and she listens remarkably well. People comment all the time at how well she listens/well behaved she is. I am firm with her when I need to be but I always explain why we can't do x and never leave her to a fit by herself. She hardly has any fits. She started that phase (and I'm sure there is more to come) and I just held her threw them and validated her feelings. She does not fear me but she and I have a mutual respect and she knows when I "mean business" and always responds right away. I like to use uhuh in a high tone when she is getting into things she shouldn't be and danger for the dangerous things. I rarely tell her no and when I do she knows to stay away from it. Also if she starts running away from me and we are out or something I call her name firmly in a very serious voice and she just sits right down and waits for me to go get her (she just instinctively started doing that on her own). She has never had a hitting, kicking, biting issue either, actually shares really well too... I know that those phases are totally normal though and I always expected them.

My personal opinion is that if you really AP your baby and you are firm but gentle with your toddler you will have to discipline less and less and have a great kid who really listens to you. You will have respect for each other and trust. A child who wants to please and has reason to will. A child in fear of punishment is afraid, does not respect you, and does not trust you. A child who is not disciplined has no boundaries and no direction and will be chaotic. Discipline is healthy, attachment is healthy, and respect is healthy, children need all of those things.

This post is so depressing to me.  I have a HN child.  I did/do everything you describe.  And i have a Wild Child!  She was still drawing on walls age 4, despite doing just what you describe, and then moving to longer timeouts (for the crayons not the child!) and eventually only having crayons out in one-on-one drawing sessions (with no free access to them at all).  One day she found a stub of one in the pocket of a hand-me-down coat from a cousin and drew all over the walls with it.  Once she dragged a stool from the bathroom to the bedroom, used it to get access to the first shelf of the open wardrobe, climbed it like a ladder and took down my makeup bag and then coloured the entire room with lipstick.  She did this while i was answering the door to the meter-reader.  It took her less than 4 minutes.

I think GD is the best way to raise children.  But i think if you have a wild child, with the sort of personality where they want to push the boundaries over and over, then GD won't cure that.  I think a lot of "naughtiness" is down to curiosity, thoughtlessness, single-mindedness and high-energy/high-needs and GD cannot cure any of that.  Equally i think if i hit my little wild cub all the time she would simply do the same things but lie about them, blame others and hide them.  As it is she does a whole lot of daft/dangerous/annoying things, but she, at present at least, comes clean right away and is happy to help make amends.

I do know several people who use GD and who have hinted that i *must* be shaming or hitting my DD in private because look - it isn't working!  I must have somehow broken her!  I know you're not saying that sosurreal, i'm only mentioning it because it's a semi-common reaction when people see my little crazy babe in action.  She was HN from birth, and though i'm sure AP and GD have helped her to be HAPPY, they certainly haven't tamed her one bit!

[sosurreal09]

GoBeca- I will absolutely agree with you that the child's personality plays the biggest role in who they are/how they act. I don't see that as a discipline issue though. You can not change a person or a child but you can try to work with them. Have you read Raising Your Spirited Child? I have the workbook and found it very insightful for my DD. She is still HN but she is more the sensitive, intense, mixed with stubbornness, low-sleep needs, and bursts of energy that need to be burned throughout the day type. Now like I said above she is still young so who knows what the future holds but I try to work with her. If we are going to run errands I take her to the park first let her run around and then when we are shopping I have her in the wrap on my back. I try to give her enough outside time everyday. I make sure to give her enough one on one time too and lots of eye contact, It is never easy really working with a HN child, I just try my best to accommodate her while still being firm about things and sensitive to her feelings/needs.

I notice by your sig that you share custody with XP right? Perhaps he doesn't parent the way you do and it affects DD?

[sosurreal09]

Originally Posted by 1love4ever 

sosurreal09 I think you made some excellent points and have some wonderful methods.

TY

[SubliminalDarkness]

First off, I don't consider myself a GD parent. So keep that in mind here :)

I think the thing about GD is you can't try and use it here and there, and it's really hard if you don't parent that way from day one. My kids are used to more traditional discipline, so when I'm trying to be 'better' and use GD, they blow it off because to them it's just a non-discipline. Does that make sense? So I feel like a lot of those people saying, "that doesn't work" are like me, people who don't subscribe to it and so in their situation, it doesn't work. 

[sunnygir1]

Originally Posted by SubliminalDarkness 

First off, I don't consider myself a GD parent. So keep that in mind here :)

I think the thing about GD is you can't try and use it here and there, and it's really hard if you don't parent that way from day one. My kids are used to more traditional discipline, so when I'm trying to be 'better' and use GD, they blow it off because to them it's just a non-discipline. Does that make sense? So I feel like a lot of those people saying, "that doesn't work" are like me, people who don't subscribe to it and so in their situation, it doesn't work. 

Well, I don't know.  A couple thoughts come up for me right away reading this post.

1)  The daycare providers I have taken my children to use GD, and it seems to work very well.  They hold crying children, they redirect gently, they have children take responsibility for their own messes, they give them time-ins (and then older kids time-outs) when needed, they have a firm schedule and routine, and don't give on their boundaries, etc.  I am certain that many of the children there are not GD'd at home, but it appears that GD is fairly effective with them at school.  I know that a daycare provider is different than a parent, and children almost magically have more control over our children than we do. 

2)  If I screw up and yell at my children or say something less than gentle to them (which I do fairly frequently) that doesn't mean I have to abandon GD and continue to treat them that way.  I can, at any time, realize that I was out of line, talk to my children about it, make amends, make a plan for how I would like to react next time, and move forward.  I'm not saying it's easy to change my patterns, but I will say, that when I work on it, I am rewarded by children who respond to it -- I don't mean obedience here, but empathy and joy and repeating the kind of behavior I show them.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

GoBeca- I will absolutely agree with you that the child's personality plays the biggest role in who they are/how they act. I don't see that as a discipline issue though. You can not change a person or a child but you can try to work with them. Have you read Raising Your Spirited Child? I have the workbook and found it very insightful for my DD. She is still HN but she is more the sensitive, intense, mixed with stubbornness, low-sleep needs, and bursts of energy that need to be burned throughout the day type. Now like I said above she is still young so who knows what the future holds but I try to work with her. If we are going to run errands I take her to the park first let her run around and then when we are shopping I have her in the wrap on my back. I try to give her enough outside time everyday. I make sure to give her enough one on one time too and lots of eye contact, It is never easy really working with a HN child, I just try my best to accommodate her while still being firm about things and sensitive to her feelings/needs.

I notice by your sig that you share custody with XP right? Perhaps he doesn't parent the way you do and it affects DD?

Oh yeah, i've read it.  I've read a whole bunch of stuff.  The thing i've found most use is Playful Parenting.  It plays into her endless sense of fun (she's a total pollyanna, which i KNOW will make her future easier, but it's hard to deal with when she's minimising something which is currently a huge deal).  But it takes an enormous amount of energy to do it on the scale i need to here.

My DD is the sort where i can give her one-to-one time all day, with planned activities she loves and has helped choose and after 12-14 hours of this she will be saying to me "but why do you NEVER play with me!?".  Because to her the 5 minutes i just spent not playing with her outweighs the previous 14 hours.  Since i had her sister this is a much bigger problem since when the baby has needs i have to meet them.  I am simply never *enough* for DD1, i never sate her constant needs, but i never did, not since the cord was cut have i managed to meet her needs.  So i know i don't give her enough one-on-one, or enough interaction, or enough anything, because i need to sleep and eat and pee.  It's exhausting trying and depressing failing.  I am told i was the same sort of child.

XP and i are on different pages in terms of parenting, but he is AP and GD too, just has a more permissive attitude than me.  She sees him as a friend rather than a parent a lot of the time, but DP is very parenty (we're the primary carers) and so she doesn't lack a male role-model.  XP isn't ridiculously permissive just a little more so than me.

My DD also cried for 4-6 hours a day (every evening) for the first 4 or 5 months and then for several hours (sometimes 1, sometimes 6) until she could crawl at 11 months, then she stopped inconsolable screaming but began getting into stuff and has been frenetic ever since (yes, i know, kids get into stuff.  Hands up if one morning you woke at 5am to find your 19month old had opened her bedroom door, undone her (spring loaded) baby gate, gone into the kitchen and emptied the 2kgs of sugar, 3kgs of red lentils and 2kgs of flour onto the floor and was when you got there carefully massaging a new pack of butter (taken from the LOCKED fridge) into the cupboard doors - while i was cleaning that up she climbed over the other baby gate, went into the bathroom and unrolled the entire toilet roll).  I was so sleep-deprived during that first year i had psychosis.  My relationship fell apart (not that a mellow baby could have prevented that! i just mean it was a difficult time).  And yet despite all of that, 0-1 was my easiest year with her so far.

I love my child.  I love GD - i believe it is the best way to teach children to be thoughtful, caring, respectful, happy adults.  But i don't think it makes them into thoughtful caring respectful kids and i don't think it eradicates discipline problems.

[sosurreal09]

Go beca that is a really tough situation. Even if she is not a caring, respectful kid, that doesn't mean she won't be a caring respectful adult. All of your effort will not be in vain I am sure. You have given her an amazing foundation to grow from and even if she is challenging and a handful you have prepared her and given her the tools to eventually be able to self regulate and control her own behaviors. There is a reason you are her mother! I think children like her especially need GD.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

My personal opinion is that if you really AP your baby and you are firm but gentle with your toddler you will have to discipline less and less and have a great kid who really listens to you. You will have respect for each other and trust. A child who wants to please and has reason to will. A child in fear of punishment is afraid, does not respect you, and does not trust you. A child who is not disciplined has no boundaries and no direction and will be chaotic. Discipline is healthy, attachment is healthy, and respect is healthy, children need all of those things.

That worked out great with one of my kids, but not so great for the other. Different children need different kinds of parenting.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

Go beca that is a really tough situation. Even if she is not a caring, respectful kid, that doesn't mean she won't be a caring respectful adult. All of your effort will not be in vain I am sure. You have given her an amazing foundation to grow from and even if she is challenging and a handful you have prepared her and given her the tools to eventually be able to self regulate and control her own behaviors. There is a reason you are her mother! I think children like her especially need GD.

Thanks for my hugs .  In fact she CAN be caring and respectful and incredibly so, she can also be thoughtless and careless and disrespectful.  I really see already with DD2 that GD is

allowing her to be the gregarious-but-well-behaved child i guess she would most likely have been anyway.  And in terms of DD1 i really DO agree, that GD is more important for a child like that.  And also, big-headed as it sounds, i think the world NEEDS women like DD1 will hopefully grow to be.  She is irreverent, she is brave, she is smart.  I could smack her and shame her and after about a year she might be much easier to parent, but as an adult she might end up just one more frightened, quiet woman.  Maybe not though, who can know how much difference things really make, over, for example, how one FRAMES those things.  A loved-but-smacked child, as an adult, will feel they were smacked out of love.  An unloved-and-smacked child will feel they were smacked out of anger or dislike.  We humans are so adaptable, context and cultural norms can really save or damn any of us.

Anyway, it was interesting talking.  It's nice to know there ARE kids and parents out there for whom GD is a brilliant fit.  I go on as i do mainly because i FEEL it is wrong to smack and shame her, so i shan't.  Even when i'm really tempted (which i am not ashamed to admit, i sometimes, in my more desperate moments, am!).

[lalaland42]

I think it depends on the kid, really. My 6 year old DD is hardly wild and I've used GD on her. The thing is, she is a really sensitive person and a light touch really works. She finds timeouts devastating. She is easy to reason with. My 16 month old is not shaping up to have the same personality. I love his little personality but I think I will have to use different discipline techniques with him. LOL Just as I typed this, DS bit DD on the shoulder so I had to remove him.

Where I live, a lot of the parents use what they think of as GD. I usually refer to it as unparenting because instead of gently guiding them, they leave them to their own devices. It really sucks because a few of the kids with more aggressive personalities bully the smaller children. The parents want to be "gentle" but they end up doing nothing and saying nothing.
 

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

Not in my experience.  I think it depends on how you interpret GD and Alfie Kohn though.  Neither style says not to have rules, discipline, or boundaries.  Both approaches encourage being thoughtful of the rules, boundaries, and discipline that is used though.  Alfie Kohn just seems to encourage much deeper thought and writes in a way that seems to be meant to challenge our beliefs so we can reflect on them but even he talks about setting some limits and not engaging in repetitive debate when the answer won't change.  I think it is harder when kids are young and you are worried about them turning out badly, as they get older and you see that it really does work you will probably start to relax.  Even parents who spank are often hardest on the first and ease up a lot as the kids get older or they have more kids because they see what a little thing most kid stuff is.

This.
 

[sosurreal09]

I agree with those things. I don't think those parents are doing GD though. After the word Gentle is the word Discipline it is just as important as the word gentle. If you do nothing your child will have no boundaries and that is not a good thing for a child. Children want and need boundaries.
 

Originally Posted by lalaland42 

I think it depends on the kid, really. My 6 year old DD is hardly wild and I've used GD on her. The thing is, she is a really sensitive person and a light touch really works. She finds timeouts devastating. She is easy to reason with. My 16 month old is not shaping up to have the same personality. I love his little personality but I think I will have to use different discipline techniques with him. LOL Just as I typed this, DS bit DD on the shoulder so I had to remove him.

Where I live, a lot of the parents use what they think of as GD. I usually refer to it as unparenting because instead of gently guiding them, they leave them to their own devices. It really sucks because a few of the kids with more aggressive personalities bully the smaller children. The parents want to be "gentle" but they end up doing nothing and saying nothing.
 

This.
 

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by mamakay 

That worked out great with one of my kids, but not so great for the other. Different children need different kinds of parenting.

I suspect this is closest to the truth. For the record, we use *some* GD techniques (or plan to, mostly....DD is only 9 months) but we're more traditional in our parenting philosophies. That said, this is just what I've heard about parenting from both my mom and my grandma on my dad's side (both very different types of parents.) They used spanking, which I know most of y'all don't use and I'm not advocating for it, but this is jut the point they both made. They both had children who seemed to worked fine with an occasional swat. They both had children who they ended up having to not ever spank because it just didn't work, the child didn't care and got defiant and they'd have to near kill the child if they were to insist on corporeal punishment with those particular children. And then they both had at least one child each who they never needed to spank because she was so sensitive (was a girl in both cases) if they even just gave the child "The Look" she would dissolve into tears and run and hide behind the couch all day. Made me really believe the "different discipline for different kids" thing.

[Dr.Worm]

I believe strongly in GD.  I think a lot of people do confuse it as permissiveness.  People tend to be overly strict and harsh or they go to the opposite extreme where the kid gets to be in charge of everyone.  Here's what GD means to me....the Golden Rule...treating my child the way I want to be treated.  If I don't want someone calling me a name or hitting me because I made a mistake then I won't do it to my dd.  I think people also confuse the word discipline with punishment.  Discipline is, to me, helping your child feel right, as Dr. Sears would say.  I teach my dd empathy(she is eleven by the way)by helping her to see what it would be like to be the other person.  It is apparently working because she defends kids getting picked on in school and is very quick to pick up on unfairness and hypocrisy.  I'm most definitely not the perfect mother.  I have made mistakes but that is just because I am imperfect.  I go to her and tell her I am sorry and I shouldn't have done what I did.  My dad used to call me names as a kid and what bothered me even more than the insults was the fact that he justified what he said...as if I deserved it.  We all do the best we can and none of us are perfect parents but I honestly believe that if a child knows they are loved and respected by you they will "listen" for the most part. 

[hildare]

we try to follow unconditional parenting style.  so.. to answer the op's question:

it depends upon what you mean by 'wild.'  and also.. what the alternative to 'wild' might mean to you/other parents.  if you want tame, obedient, rule-following children, ones that do not question the fairness or unfairness of a situation, etc. then, in contrast sometimes a gd or unconditionally parented child might seem 'wild.' 

personally, why we chose to raise our child gd is because we want a child who can critically view a situation, can think and show insight, and may not necessarily WANT to follow a rule just because someone says so, or may voice an opinion, or expect to participate in family life. 

from what i've seen, there are parents who want kids to just shut up and do what they are told.  i imagine the reality of a child who can be self aware, and expects to be autonomous (to the degree that age/responsibility/ability allows) would be 'wild' to that parent. 

i feel like gd is about respecting the ability and knowledge of a child and supporting self direction to the best extent possible.  that doesn't work in all environments. 

gd doesn't mean no boundaries, or allowing behaviors that are dangerous/rude/harmful, though.  it's possible to set and enforce limits and expect a child to operate within them. 

i have seen non gd parents just be lax about enforcing/creating rules and boundaries (permissive ? parenting according to the child development books) who have children who are wild by my definition and do not stop to consider their own behaviors the way i have seen gd parented children do.  i've also seen what some pp's describe -- parents who do that same no boundary/structure/expectations and call it gd and then have results they are not expecting. 

[lalaland42]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

I agree with those things. I don't think those parents are doing GD though. After the word Gentle is the word Discipline it is just as important as the word gentle. If you do nothing your child will have no boundaries and that is not a good thing for a child. Children want and need boundaries.
 

I agree with you but the parents would label themselves as GD parents and sometimes that self-identification tarnishes an otherwise good parenting strategy. It is important to distinguish between gently guiding your child and forcing them to reinvent the wheel of social behavior.