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[CA Mom]

hi,

My 7 year old son is my gifted kid. We've had problems with him forever and had him tested at 4 1/2 for ADHD based on a recommendation from his preschool teacher. The child psychologist did an aptitude test and said he was gifted not ADHD. Continued to have problems with teachers insisting he has ADHD in K, 1st and now 2nd. We had him retested with our own money again this spring with the WISC test and he came out with a FSIQ of 144. However, he did not do well on the schools CogAT. He scored at the 81st percentile. I am surprised by this because he s clearly gifted, two IQ tests prove this. He will not be allowed in the GATE program next year because it is solely on A CogAT score of 98+. Honestly our GATE program is very weak so I really don't care. I have already started an SST for him for next year to get him a differentiated curriculum and everyone has been great except his teacher this year who still insists he is bearly average and that he has ADHD .

So my question is, how is it I have a gifted kid who can't get into the gifted program even if I wanted him too? It would seem to me he should have done better on the CogAT.

And, does anyone else have an underachiever? He seriously WILL NOT learn his math facts or spelling words. He resists it at all costs. Yet this kid reads Wikipedia and edits it because it is wrong or missing information. I have no idea how to motivate him and he is only 7. I feel good about his grade placement. He has essentially skipped a grade since he as a fall birthday and CA has a late cut off (Dec1) and most fall kids either delay start or are held back. We started him in K at 4 against everyones recommendations and his teacher was blown away by how much he learned, so quickly. He resisted learning his letters in all of preschool so knew none of them at the start of K and left K as the highest level reader.

His teacher this year told me in September he had already completed 2nd grade (the same one who insists he has ADHD and is average) and literally ignored him with his reading so he never read his book box because he didn't like the books. not only did they not progress him they lowered his book box level. . They did the computer reading level assessment a few months ago and realized he is reading at a 5th grade level yet they lowered his book box level. I can only imagine where he'd be if he was actually nurtured. I provide him reading material in his interest areas at home but he's not allowed to bring that to school to read.

Sorry to turn ths into a rant. I am very frustrated and wonder if I should homeschool him., but I really don't want to. I'm afraid his lack of motivation will turn into bad grades soon. I just need a place where people understand. No one else I know has a kid like this. They all think their kids are gifted but high achieving doesn't mean gifted and gifted kids are different...really different.

[mom2ponygirl]

It is not uncommon for highly gifted kids to not do as well as expected on group achievement tests like the CogAT.  The CogAT is similar to the OLSAT and I know there is an article out there about highly gifted kids often doing poorly on the OLSAT.  Check www.hoagiesgifted.org I know the article is there somewhere!

I have a highly gifted kid and there was no way she would have learned her math facts at 7 and/or spelled very well.  She could multiply fractions quickly in her head but 8 plus 5 she'd have to count. :-)   She's 12 now and in precalculus.  Spelling took off around age 10 when she began to care what her friends thought of her writing.  Elementary school can be rough and without an understanding teacher I don't see how it could ever work.  We ended up homeschooling and very glad we did.  Many people find workable situations with their schools, but we could not and have limited school options locally. 

[serenbat]

except his teacher this year who still insists he is bearly average and that he has ADHD .

We had "bearly average" in private school- pulled out and did testing with our public school and tested highly gifted but they would not help (at the time my DD was in 2nd) and the gifted program did not start in 2nd- frankly we were told the best option was to homeschool---we did not have the ADHD---"label" and as you must know if ONE thinks it several other take what last year's teacher said REGARDLESS of truth

we homeschooled never looked back

How much does he know that they think this of him and how much does that really factor in?

I would hate the false label thing!

I would look at all options but if you can't get the school to see what you see I don't see (enough sees?) that they are going to be a help-see?

[loraxc]

They did the computer reading level assessment a few months ago and realized he is reading at a 5th grade level yet they lowered his book box level.

I don't get it-how do they justify this?

[karne]

I hear you.  My 2nd graqde ds is simultaneously reading two of the Harry Potter books (maybe 2nd and 3rd books), reads and comprehends higer level books, has around a 5th, maybe higher reading level, BUT is a careful, slower reader....so basically fluency has been determined to be an issue.  I can easily see a child testing several grade levels above in terms of reading level/ability, and having a lower "book level" in the classroom if speed or fluency is an issue at all.  This got my ds bumped down a level in his reading group, and it was not a good experience for him, so he was moved back.

I wonder if your ds is an 'underachiever", or if the way he approaches math facts, or spelling, are really more of his learning style, and his interest or need to know determines what he does with the material?  My ds is not a natural speller, and would routinely fail spelling tests until he decided that he wanted to pass the tests.  His way: he doesn't look at the spelling words until the morning of the test, and then memorizes them, and generally gets 100%.  It's his way.

We are working with a dx of ADD, and this has it's own set of ups and downs.

[Casha'sMommy]

My two older dc (15yo and 16yo) do not perform well on group achievement tests. They cannot remain focused and end up day dreaming and finding they have to rush to finish the test in time. I didn't understand when they were younger but, now that they're older, they're able to explain why things may not go well.

My now 15yo ds did not do well in math for many years. He always did math in his head and stumbled significantly when he had to start writing things down and keep columns lined up. His 2nd grade teacher allowed him to give two answers on math work. He wrote the number calculated in his head on the back of the page and then he had to try to figure it out on paper. His pencil to paper math skills improved with time.

16yo dd simply gets very frustrated with her boredom and just cannot manage to test well in most circumstances.

[Cherkay]

Hi CA Mom!  What is really standing out to me in this post is that every teacher your child has had has suggested he might have ADHD.  It concerns me that the behaviors he is exhibiting in the classroom are really impacting school for him.  This of course makes life stressful for all involved.  Therefore, what I’m saying in this post is only regarding ways you might help motivate him to work in school rather than what is actually causing the problem (giftedness).  Since you don’t feel you are getting the support from the school it is going to be up to you to figure out solutions for your son and bring them to the school’s attention. 

Do you own a mini trampoline?  See if that helps him focus at home or calms him and if it does suggest to your child’s teacher to use one in school when he is refusing to work.  Your school’s special education teacher actually might have one in their room already and she can send him to her/him to jump awhile.  Also you can meet with his teacher and come up with a behavior plan for him.  Brainstorm things you both see that he likes.  Use those as motivators for him to work.  I know you said you have no idea how to motivate him but there is surely something he is passionate about.  If he can just work 10 minutes on a task he isn’t fond of that would mean progress.  The sky is the limit with rewards so think outside the box.  After all, your son doesn’t exactly fit in the “the box” so you might have to get very creative.  Trust me, I have one of those "out of the box" kiddos so I know this is challenging. 

What is the school saying is his biggest issue?  Is it not being able to pay attention?  Is he talking and being disruptive instead of doing his work?  Is he highly distractable?  Or is he just refusing to work?  I'm just curious as to what has every teacher thinking the same thing?  Have you considered any diet changes or supplementing with fish oil?  I've done a lot of research on how diet can affect behavior.  Also I give both my kids a teaspoon of fish old a day and I do see a difference in their behavior if I run out.  My son is definitely calmer on it.  I'm just wondering if you have tried any of these things. 

Anyway I know I didn’t really touch on your main problem about him being gifted but I thought I might throw out some ideas on how to help him focus in school.  If the school won’t recognize he is gifted you can at least try some things to help him in the classroom.  Just because they aren’t helping you in this situation, doesn’t mean you can’t improve it.  Just imagine their faces if you came in with a slew of things to try for him.  It means you do your research and that speaks volumes! 

[Cherkay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CA Mom 

His teacher this year told me in September he had already completed 2nd grade (the same one who insists he has ADHD and is average) and literally ignored him with his reading so he never read his book box because he didn't like the books. not only did they not progress him they lowered his book box level. . They did the computer reading level assessment a few months ago and realized he is reading at a 5th grade level yet they lowered his book box level. I can only imagine where he'd be if he was actually nurtured. I provide him reading material in his interest areas at home but he's not allowed to bring that to school to read.
 

Oh and this just blows my mind!  Did they explain why they wouldn't let him choose reading material he likes?  This alone seems like a great way to motivate him. 

[ChristaN]

My dd10 was in the same spot with the CogAT.  I admit that I have a bit of pet peeve about that test now.  Dd also had two IQ tests that put her in the gifted-highly gifted+ range (one WISC at 148).  She, too, came out in the 80s on the CogAT.  I've also seen some kids whose parents have privated tested IQ and come out with avg-high average IQ #s (right at 100-115) who came out on the CogAT in a range that qualified them for GT programming where I live (95th+).  The CogAT is not an intelligence test.  Multiple choice tests that look for convergent answers aren't a good way to identify who is gifted IMHO.  The kids who I've seen do well on it who I question as to whether they are really gifted are kids who work fast and have good memories but who don't have that real capacity to create new information and see connections btwn seemingly unrelated things. 

We were told that dd's IQ scores were due to "good guessing."  My dd is 2e and it took a lot of time and trial and error to ferret that out and find a way to help her achieve highly enough on a consistent basis for the schools to be willing to do something for her.  Although the GT teacher at her school was willing to give me the benefit of the doubt b/c I have an older HG child who was in her class and although she's been very helpful with getting dd advanced placement this year, she wasn't going to GT id her either based on the CogAT and other erratic group test scores.  We spoke to the GT coordinator for the district and had dd's scores reviewed by a panel at the district.  She has an id now although I'm not sure that the id makes a huge difference in placement since our district has basically moved toward achievement based placement without consideration of identifications or twice exceptionality.  If you achieve highly, you're in the GT or advanced classes; if you do not have consistently high group achievement scores, you get nothing.    

[chaimom]

ChristaN, I have an HG+ learner and an HG/2E learner  too.  My 2E kid just did amazingly badly on the CogAT, just a couple of weeks after we had him privately tested (WISC & WCJIII).  The latest private testing had him HG-- in the 98th pctl on WISC, 99th on WCJIII.  His previous CogAT & Ravens were in the 95th pctl (not enough to qualify for HG, but significantly higher than the latest district testing).  

We called the district's office and they agreed there was something off about the newest CogAt scores and said we could have him retested individually and have the questions read to him, which his 504 says should have happened in the first place (he has dyslexia and sometimes misreads words). Our district claims they don't accept private scores, but I know of two kids who got in on private scores, so I think it depends on the day. :(  We think we could press them to accept our private scores and not have him retested, but for a variety of reasons we don't want him in the program right now-- we only want him qualified.  

I would call your district and ask that if they won't accept your scores, that they test your dd themselves.  I would also ask to talk to their 2E specialist to see what support he or she can give you.  Your tester might also be able to address the issue of "a good guesser," which to me is a ridiculous statement.

Edited by chaimom - 5/15/11 at 10:42pm

[ChristaN]

We did actually eventually get them to take the private scores and I suspect that our persistence on that changed the district policy b/c it now reads that private IQ scores are acceptable in lieu of the CogAT.  Just to clarify, she did come out above avg on the CogAT (the 80s was the percentile, not the scaled #) and her non-verbal section was, by far, the highest.  Our district does not have a 2e specialist or really anyone who seems to know what to do with 2e kids other than place them in std classes and pretend that neither exceptionality exists. 

While dd has an id and has been in GT reading for two years and was subject accelerated in math this year, none of that would have happened without a very accommodating GT teacher at her school.  The district policy reads something like, "a GT identification does not mean that your child will be placed in advanced classes.  Advanced class placement requires high achievement, good work habits, and motivation."  It pretty much makes it easy to get in as a high achieving kid who isn't gifted but harder if you are underachieving and/or 2e.  Dd did pass the district tests required to continue with subject acceleration in math in middle school and we're cautiously optimistic that we're seeing some improvement with some interventions we're trying, but we were told that you can't get an IEP unless you're below grade level, which she never is, and that they didn't want to give her a 504 b/c the types of accommodations her psych recommended would be things that all kids would want so it wouldn't be fair to give them just to her. 

I realize that they're wrong on the 504 and I could push it more, but the types of accommodations we thought were most likely to be effective wouldn't be best dealt with through a 504 so we haven't pushed on it for now.  Gum chewing, drinking caffeinated tea during school, omega-3 fatty acid supplementation, and a few other alternatives seem to be helping a lot with the ADD end of things.  If someone decided to forbid the gum and tea in middle school, I'll push for them to be formally written into a 504 and would have pretty good support that they are helpful b/c her math teacher noticed such a difference about a month or so after we started them that she e-mailed me to ask what I had done to the kid. 

eta: since I mentioned ADD, I did want to say that I found the end section on ADD/ADHD in the Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and Adults to really clarify in my mind that dd probably is both gifted and someone who has ADD and not someone who was misdiagnosed.  The authors listed a few things that would be unlikely in a gifted child who didn't really have ADD/ADHD.  Dd (and dh) both didn't look like people who were bored, fast processors, or otherwise appearing ADD without really having the issue.  My dd also has an anxiety disorder dx and I've suspected dyslexia for years, but at this point I don't know what we'd do about it.  She reads well above grade level and consistently comes out in the 99th - 99.7th percentile on the verbal part of the WISC, so she has such strong verbal ability that she seems to have compensated enough to make it work. 

[CA Mom]

Wow. Thank you all for your thoughts and input. Corey primarily is disruptive in class in that he won't stop talking and is fidgety. He is can also be noncompliant. The behavorial pediatrician we see thinks ODD opposed to ADD so we are treating him for that. The psychologist we see told me if they bring up ur hint ADD tell them to test him with the school psychologist, she won't find ADD and the case will be closed.

His teachers, he has ones who job share which is terrible for him, moved him down a level in reading to punish him for not reading the books. He is reading at greater than 100 wpm and comprehending at a Lexile 800-900. They did not consult me about this punishment or even tell me he wasnt reading his books.

On his WISC the psychologist pointed out to me that he scored 99th in every section except the one that correlated to visual motor integration, he scored only 48th. If he didnt have this lower score he'd certainly be profoundly gifted. Anyhow, this looks to indicate a LD especially with writing. When we set up the SST I brought this up as a reason he was doing poorly on his timed math facts tests. The principal told the teacher to have him tested orally which she did and he finished the test correctly and on time. However the very next week the teacher was back to written seemingly forgotten about the oral testing. The principal suggested we pursue a 504 next year allowing him to have oral tests and access to a keyboard for class (he types quite well for 7).

I am not interested in pushing the district to get him into GATE because he is a classic underachiever. 3rd grade here is much harder than 2 nd and he will already be facing 2 hours of homework a night in the normal class. I am looking to get an IEP for him for his giftedness (sad I need to treat it like a disability but oh well). I want them to give him a hardest first differentiation where the teacher gives him the 5 hardest questions On the test and if he gets them all correct he is then allowed to pursue a teacher approved project. I think this would allow him to move through the material quicker and keep him busy and focused while the other kids are catching up. He loves research based projects. Hopefully they will agree.

[joensally]

I'll preface my remarks by saying that my irritation is with the diagnostic system and the school system.  :)  Your son's situation makes me cranky on his, and your, behalf.

First off, I really dislike the ODD criteria in the DSM.  It's descriptive, rather than diagnostic.  Too many kids are getting hammered with this label, which is really intended for kids who are not thriving across environments and are causing harm (loosely defined) to themselves, their relationships and their environments.  These aren't the kids who aren't self-regulating and are hyper.  These are the kids who are compelled, against their best interests, to annoy others and be in opposition to others.  They are usually train wrecks until treated.

I don't know how a child could be labeled with ODD when their learning environment, which they are in for about 6 hours per day, is so out of sync with their needs.  What treatment is being employed?  Family therapy is the principal treatment, along with CBT and possibly meds to treat the other conditions that frequently co-occur with ODD (ie ADHD).  Personally, I would absolutely reject this label and would not allow it anywhere near his permanent school record until it's confirmed through a differential diagnosis process with a multi-disciplinary team. 

Have you read Webb's Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and Adults?  This is a must read, IMO.  Also the Eide's book The Mislabeled Child.  Their websites are also very informative - there's a lot about 2E kids there.

Has he been seen by a developmental optometrist and an occupational therapist with experience with written output?

Finally, I wouldn't be so quick to characterize him as an underachiever.  It sounds like he's spent a number of years at this point in sub-optimal environments, and his "underachievment" may be a very rational response to that.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by CA Mom 


On his WISC the psychologist pointed out to me that he scored 99th in every section except the one that correlated to visual motor integration, he scored only 48th. If he didnt have this lower score he'd certainly be profoundly gifted. Anyhow, this looks to indicate a LD especially with writing. When we set up the SST I brought this up as a reason he was doing poorly on his timed math facts tests. The principal told the teacher to have him tested orally which she did and he finished the test correctly and on time. However the very next week the teacher was back to written seemingly forgotten about the oral testing. The principal suggested we pursue a 504 next year allowing him to have oral tests and access to a keyboard for class (he types quite well for 7).
 

Has he had an occupational therapy evaluation? How is his eye hand coordination generally - can he catch a ball?

I'm also seconding the recommendation for Omega 3 fatty acid supplementation. I would also look at his diet and sleep.

[ChristaN]

When you say that the only part he didn't score in the 99th percentile on was the part related to visual-motor integration, are you referring to the PSI?  That section does require quickly visually scanning things and marking pages.  It also tends to run lower in a lot of gifted kids and is considered to be less related to intelligence than the visual and perceptual reasoning indices and it can be totally dropped when calculating the IQ. 

Kids who have "unusual" variances btwn the PSI and/or VCI or PRI should have GAI (general ability index) calculated rather than a full scale IQ according to the publisher of the WISC.  If you have the scaled scores you can figure the GAI yourself.  Just google "WISC Technical Report #4" which should get you a link to the report which has the charts for figuring the GAI.  Davidson Young Scholars does accept a GAI in lieu of the FSIQ if he surpasses that 145 mark on the GAI. 

I also want to second the suggestion of enforced underachievement.  That is part of the reason I pushed so hard for advanced placement for my younger dd.  She, too, had had too many years of inadequate instruction but, when given an individual achievement test (the WIAT), she was still scoring in the 98th and 99th percentiles.  The ability was still there and she was still achieving highly when given the chance.  Her school setting, however, had kind of crushed her and she was no longer showing it on group tests.  That coupled with careless errors and out of the box thinking was setting her up to never get appropriate educational placement.  If we waited for her to start to show consistently high achievement in school without changing her placement, it might not have happened.  She's still not where she could be, but she's doing much better after this year of more accelerated work.