Tell me how your gifted pre-schooler did in Kindergarten and beyond - Page 3

[ChristaN]

Originally Posted by nuttymom 

Yes, she is a high achiever, that is just what I would call her. Our school uses CogAT to qualify kids for the TAG program. So it is technically a gifted program, we just got the news that she was in it about a month ago. They test all second graders here with CogAt. I only know her IQ score because her and I volunteered at a research study at a medical school, and part of it for her was an IQ test which they told me the results to.

So, are you saying that her IQ score was average but her CogAT score was in the upper 90s?  That is interesting if so.  I am not a big fan of groups tests like the CogAT for GT ids and have seen some kids who test highly on them who don't seem gifted (and the reverse, kids with high IQ scores who don't test in the GT area on the CogAT).  However, scores can also fluctate on ability tests more than I thought they might over time.  If her IQ was tested at a really young age, it might have been a less than accurate result.

I do get where you are coming from, though, about thinking of gifted as a different way to think more so than high achievement and I do think that is an accurate assessment.  I think that schools much too often confuse achievement with gifted thinking.  That is another reason that I'm not totally fond on using tests like the CogAT for GT identifications b/c they are multiple choice and rely pretty heavily on fast, convergent thinking.  If you see an out of the box answer rather than what the person who wrote it intended, you tend not to do as well.  Finding kids who think within the box isn't a good way to look for giftedness IMHO.

[nuttymom]

Yes, average IQ score (perfectly average 100), 98th in math, 97th in reading for the CogAT. I think she is a very bright, high achiever, quick learner and good at testing. But not necessarily gifted.  Not diminishing her in any way whatsoever, I just don't think she's "gifted" in the way that I think of the definition of gifted. I could very well be wrong. 

[whatsnextmom]

Just something to consider, research study IQ tests aren't always reliable particularly with young children. The testing is often not considered truely accurate until around 7. If her needs are being met, it really doesn't matter. However, if that changes, I'd revisit having her tested by someone who specializes in testing gifted children. I think as you interact with more identified kids, you might be surprised. My eldest is one of those obvious sorts you see right off the bat but most wouldn't guess my son was gifted unless they hit on a particularly favored topic of his. Both test in the same percentile.

[jen in co]

Originally Posted by nuttymom 

Yes, average IQ score (perfectly average 100), 98th in math, 97th in reading for the CogAT. I think she is a very bright, high achiever, quick learner and good at testing. But not necessarily gifted.  Not diminishing her in any way whatsoever, I just don't think she's "gifted" in the way that I think of the definition of gifted. I could very well be wrong. 

That's interesting that her IQ score varied from her COGAT so much.   My understanding was that while group administered screening tests like the COGAT frequently miss kids with high IQs, kids who score high (97%+) normally also score in that range for IQ testing.   Basically COGAT tends to have more false negatives than false positives, but for kids who do score high, the correlation is significant.   We've held off on any formal IQ testing for our entering 1st grader (who scored 99%+ across the board on COGAT and 99%+ on NNAT) b/c of the issues with unreliable testing/expense and because our school district gave him a placement in a center program based on COGAT/NNAT, but I wonder if the IQ testing wasn't accurate or was done too early.
 

I do think a lot depends on how your district/school program is structured.   Our program requires high COGAT, but is honestly an accelerated and highly academic program more than a classic GT program (e.g. they consider is a pseudo grade skip as by the end of 1st grade, they have covered and met the standards for 1st and 2nd grade curriculum and requirements).   Honestly, I'm not sure it's ideal, but it's something.

[joensally]

How old was she for the IQ test?  This could make a big difference.

Originally Posted by nuttymom 

Anyway, we are new to the whole Talented and Gifted program so I don't know a whole lot about it yet but think it will be interesting for my daughter. The TAG kids got to go on a field trip to the Air and Space museum 2 weeks ago. My daughter felt so special being only one of a few kids in her class to get to go. 
 

A general comment, not meant in any way offensively to Nuttymom, but this explains why there can be resentment for gifted programming.  Why on earth is this TAG-specific?  Really, what more is a diverse group of gifted kids going to get out of this field trip that is so much different or better than a group of range-of-ability kids?  We don't have much of anything for gifted kids in my area, and certainly not field trips and extras like this.  I'm not looking for fancy field trips to meaningfully address my kids' out of norm academic needs, I'm looking for day-to-day increased depth and breadth.  <sorry for off-topic, this just surprised me>

[loraxc]

Why on earth is this TAG-specific? Really, what more is a diverse group of gifted kids going to get out of this field trip that is so much different or better than a group of range-of-ability kids? We don't have much of anything for gifted kids in my area, and certainly not field trips and extras like this. I'm not looking for fancy field trips to meaningfully address my kids' out of norm academic needs, I'm looking for day-to-day increased depth and breadth.

Not to hijack, but I completely 100% agree. I would even say I 1000% agree.

[whatsnextmom]

Originally Posted by joensally 

A general comment, not meant in any way offensively to Nuttymom, but this explains why there can be resentment for gifted programming.  Why on earth is this TAG-specific?  Really, what more is a diverse group of gifted kids going to get out of this field trip that is so much different or better than a group of range-of-ability kids?  We don't have much of anything for gifted kids in my area, and certainly not field trips and extras like this.  I'm not looking for fancy field trips to meaningfully address my kids' out of norm academic needs, I'm looking for day-to-day increased depth and breadth.  <sorry for off-topic, this just surprised me>

I think it depends on the specifics of the trip. Sure, a regular trip doesn't make much sense but if it's specialized and will involve material for advanced students, I can see it. Our district didn't do GT only fieldtrips but there were a few middle school fieldtrips where only kids with proven ability in a field were invited to attend. For example, my DD was part of a science trip to the university where they were going to be involved in a project beyond the academic curriculum of their grade. 25 of the top science students were selected. The majority were also GT but not all. Certainly, there would have been value in sending all the kids to the symphony but budgets are tight and so only the orchestra students were sent. Same with various plays they went too... all the kids might have liked it but only those in the theatre program could attend since the theatre only donates a certain amount of tickets. There were various sports outings that involved paying for busses and only those on the teams were benefitting from the expense. I'm not saying I'm in favor of random fun fieldtrips for GATE but I could absolutely see something specialized for advanced students being of benefit.

[ChristaN]

We wound up selecting a different middle school than I had expected to go with intially for dd10 based on that same issue.  The GT program at the middle school I had expected to like seemed very elitist.  They had things like art enrichment classes that you could only participate in if you had a GT id.  While dd does have a GT id and could do those types of classes, I really didn't like the way it was handled and didn't think that their approach is what dd needs.

I'm sorry that this is getting so OT!  I am interested in the side conversation about the CogAT vs. IQ, though.  I have seen studies that show that the CogAT correlates pretty well with IQ for kids with average IQs.  I've never seen any studies that indicate that it correlates well with IQ for gifted kid, though, and that would apply to both false positives and false negatives.  Does anyone have any references for studies that show that a high score on the CogAT generally indicates high IQ (i.e. that false positives are uncommon)?  That may be totally accurate and I'd suspect in instances like the OP whose child was in the 99th on both the entire CogAT and the NNAT, that the child is likely gifted, but I'm not sure about the validity of the test (that it is testing what it is being used for -- intelligence/giftedness) so much as the reliability (that it is giving consistent results).

I guess that my hesitancy to accept that false positives are uncommon is based on a few things: I know two families in similar situations to nuttymom whose children had high CogAT scores (although not as high as her dc -- 95th in one or more areas) and whose subsequently had IQ tested and came out with close to avg results (100-110) and no areas in the 95th+; I've had a local psychologist who has experience with giftedness tell me that the CogAT isn't a test of intelligence and that she doesn't think it is a good test to use for iding giftedness; and we have around 20% of local kids scoring in the 95th+ percentile on the CogAT and it really isn't that atypical of a community.  That last one leaves me wondering if high scores on the CogAT tell us more about high achievement than high ability.  I remain curious, though...

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom 

I think it depends on the specifics of the trip. Sure, a regular trip doesn't make much sense but if it's specialized and will involve material for advanced students, I can see it.

The way it worked in our public school was that the kids in the gifted program did special units, with tons of work and research, and then sometimes had a field trip that was part of the unit. This was a pull out program and they were responsible for all regular class work that they miss, both during the regular gifted program and the field trip.

Meanwhile, the general thrust of the class work they were missing was things like language arts that they could quickly do the work at home without much explanation. Things that are require by state standards but not something they really needed to spend a bunch of class time on.

It was a super program for high achievers and most gifted kids. My *just* gifted DD really enjoyed and got a lot out of it, and didn't have any problem with the extra homework it generated (in addition to regular class work, they also had homework for the gifted program) .

My gifted but also sn DD, who has a even higher IQ, wasn't in the program because it wasn't appropriate for her. It just would have been stressful and felt pressured.

Actually, being willing to work their butts off was more important to success in the program than being super smart. Kids who like to learn as a hobby, and would rather spend their evening doing research related to the upcoming trip than watching TV.

The whole class had a field trip too, but it was something you didn't have to do a research project to go on!

[nuttymom]

She had just turned 7 when she was tested, which could have had a lot to do with her score. I didn't pay for the test, or even request it. Her and I did a volunteer research project for a local medical school, part of it was an IQ test for her. That is the only reason why I know.

I am not offended by anyone's comments. I feel lucky that we have a TAG program at all, as I know many others don't. She is new to it as of a few months ago so I am not all that familiar with it, but from what I've heard from parents of other kids at her elementary school, it seems to be more geared toward the high achiever/high academic than the technically gifted, which suits my daughter perfectly. I am hoping that at least with this identification, the teacher will have a better idea of what to do with her rather than me having to come in at the beginning of every year and be "that mom" trying to get my daughter challenged because she's bored out of her skull.
 

Originally Posted by joensally 

How old was she for the IQ test?  This could make a big difference.

A general comment, not meant in any way offensively to Nuttymom, but this explains why there can be resentment for gifted programming.  Why on earth is this TAG-specific?  Really, what more is a diverse group of gifted kids going to get out of this field trip that is so much different or better than a group of range-of-ability kids?  We don't have much of anything for gifted kids in my area, and certainly not field trips and extras like this.  I'm not looking for fancy field trips to meaningfully address my kids' out of norm academic needs, I'm looking for day-to-day increased depth and breadth.  <sorry for off-topic, this just surprised me>

[loraxc]

and we have around 20% of local kids scoring in the 95th+ percentile on the CogAT and it really isn't that atypical of a community

Not to second-guess, but are you sure it isn't that atypical? No offense intended, but I find many people don't realize how comparatively wealthy and advantaged their areas are. I'm not sure how you would go about checking this, but greatschools.net might be illuminating--there's a lot of interesting data there if you dig around.

[whatsnextmom]

I agree. Percentages can be pretty drastic between schools and districts. For example, my DD's highschool is an arts magnet and 45 percent qualify as gifted (98th percentile or higher.) Our local middle class area high school is more like 10 percent (and they use the same measure.) One district in our county claims 70 percent test gifted but then, it's also one of the wealthiest areas, mostly professionals in bio-tech and university professors.

I'm not a champion of the Cogat but I agree that there isn't really much in the way of typical. Most tests that public schools use are ability tests or tests used to measure average not really giftedness. They are cheaper and can be administrated to a group. It's better than nothing but certainly, it's imperfect.

Originally Posted by loraxc 

and we have around 20% of local kids scoring in the 95th+ percentile on the CogAT and it really isn't that atypical of a community

Not to second-guess, but are you sure it isn't that atypical? No offense intended, but I find many people don't realize how comparatively wealthy and advantaged their areas are. I'm not sure how you would go about checking this, but greatschools.net might be illuminating--there's a lot of interesting data there if you dig around.

[ChristaN]

Originally Posted by loraxc 

and we have around 20% of local kids scoring in the 95th+ percentile on the CogAT and it really isn't that atypical of a community

Not to second-guess, but are you sure it isn't that atypical? No offense intended, but I find many people don't realize how comparatively wealthy and advantaged their areas are. I'm not sure how you would go about checking this, but greatschools.net might be illuminating--there's a lot of interesting data there if you dig around.

It is a somewhat higher than average achieving community, but I'm really not sold on the idea that 20% of the local people are in the top 5% of the nation in ability.  We have two districts locally.  One of them does lean toward a higher SES area than the nation and state average.  The other is about at state avg for SES and a lower education level than the other community by far.  They both have about 20% of the kids identified as gifted.

I have lived in communities, such as the SF Bay Area, where I'd be willing to believe that 20% of the people could be gifted.  The part of the country where I live right now really doesn't come close to the Bay Area in terms of the adult community at least.  I also have one child myself who is barely into the HG category (99th percentile) who stands out like a sore thumb here.  If a full 20% of her age peers were in the top 5%, I don't think it would have been so hard to get her needs met here.  She started school early and skipped a grade so will be starting hs before she's 13.  She still tests in the 99th percentile locally as compared to grade peers and I've had a good 50% of the teachers who've ever taught her tell me that she is one of the most gifted kids they've ever taught.  I really, really don't believe that I am underestimating the kid.  She's taken the SAT twice, the ACT once, and had tons of testing.  We've never had any indication that she is more than low-level HG.

[loraxc]

But I guess I don't get it--if the community is typical, then what explains the fact that 20% of kids score in the 95th percentile? Do you believe the norming on the test is off, or do you think the COGAT is a bad test for this purpose (probably), or....? I agree that 20% seems high, but I don't know what there is to do about it when that many kids genuinely score in that bracket.

[ChristaN]

Originally Posted by loraxc 

But I guess I don't get it--if the community is typical, then what explains the fact that 20% of kids score in the 95th percentile? Do you believe the norming on the test is off, or do you think the COGAT is a bad test for this purpose (probably), or....? I agree that 20% seems high, but I don't know what there is to do about it when that many kids genuinely score in that bracket.

I don't know -- I guess I'd go with "bad test for this purpose."  I don't think that it is testing what it is purporting to test which, as our districts use it, is giftedness or high intellectual ability.  I'd go more with it testing the likelihood of high achievement in a setting that is looking for thinking within a box and doing it quickly.  The kids who are ided as gifted locally do tend to be high achievers in school so I can see that it correlates well with high achievement.  Gifted isn't about high achievement in school although high achievement is certainly a possibility for a gifted kid. 

20% of kids can certainly be high achievers even assuming a totally normal distribution.  A normal distribution would have 17% of kids at or above 1 standard deviation above the mean.  I'd expect that even kids right at that cut (1 SD above the mean) should be able to achieve pretty highly given the level of expectations for grade level performance.
 

eta: to be fair, I must mention that you don't need a 95th percentile composite score on a test like the CogAT for a gifted id here.  95th percentile on any one part will do it which, obviously, is going to increase the numbers.  There is also a lot of repeat testing of kids with high achievement scores in one of the districts.  If the achievement piece is there, the ability piece is going to be found at some point even if it takes some prepping or retesting.  If the ability piece is there but the achievement is not, it is a much more uphill battle to get the id or any services.

[Mizelenius]

My oldest is 9, so I can't tell you the "ending" to her educational story, but I would say everything just depends!    It depends on your child's temperament and attitude, it depends on your PS, it depends on your local hs community, etc.

For preK, DD did two years.  The first was excellent because it was very social and open-ended.  The 2nd was not nearly as good, because they tried to do "academics" and did not understand children's differences.  I was told by the teacher, "I know your daughter can read, but make sure she knows all of her letter sounds before she enters KG."  Hmm??  My DD was reading fluently-- of COURSE she knew her sounds-- they always seemed to want to find a reason to think she really didn't know what she knew.

I was a PS teacher, too.  Actually, being in a PS made me more aware of the problems schools face.  DD went to KG and though she had some small accommodations made, ultimately she got the same worksheets as everyone else.  She skipped to 2nd grade the following year and it wasn't much better.  I pulled her out, and we've been hsing the past three years.  This year she wants to go back to school.  It has been virtually impossible to find a small group of friends for her-- she wants rigorous academics, too.  Not sure she'll get that in PS, but at least she'll get to make new friends and take a break from the whining of her sisters. 

Personally, I love hsing and wish it had worked out socially.  I love spending time with my kids (I run out of patience, too!)  and can't believe we will have to be trapped back in the system of school.  I cringe at all of the superficial ways that behavior is controlled, don't want them anywhere NEAR the art teacher (she makes everyone draw the exact same thing in the exact same way, week after week), and know that the teachers rarely communicate.  (My 2nd DD was in KG last year, and outside of conferences, the only infrequent conversations she ever had with me were about DD saying she was sick . . .and that was it.)  I was looking forward to them starting new classes through a co-op and then taking a break to settle in for the winter along with the new baby that is due at Christmas. 

BTW, I always planned on having 2 kids and going back to work once they were in school full-time.  Little did I know we'd have 5 and would hs, at least for a few years.  I now work from home PT, so that helps, but what I am saying is-- you just never know!

[JudiAU]

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom 

They both went to play-schools and hand a lovely time. Frankly, as a former preschool teacher, I only would reccomend academic preschools for disadvantaged kids who may be "behind" in K due to lack of certain experiences or kids who are coming in with little to no English skills. Kids who are advanced really have no need to be in a pre-K class learning letters and numbers and stuff they'll easily pick-up from living with an interactive family. They tend to do better in exploritory, play-based schools that encourage messy projects, creative play, nature focus, ect.

I really agee with this approach. I'd skip the academic focus as well. Head start and other school-based or academic preschools are really designed to help kids without a rich home environment, who don't have a lot of adult interaction or communication,or who  are ESL.  If you have a loving stimulating home with a lot of books, music, and adult attention you don't need an academic environment. Your daughter will thrive with all of the wonderful options at a play-based school or through enjoying life at home.

Assuming you have good schools with reasonable class sizes, your daughter will thrive when she gets to school. If you are daughter is truly gifted, rather than "merely" bright, then investigate your local school districts gifted options. Social workers makes assumptions just like anyone so if she say "natural parenting elements" at your home she might have just assumed that you would be interested in home schooling. I'd actually be less likely to homeschool a gifted child.

[ChristaN]

Originally Posted by JudiAU 

I'd actually be less likely to homeschool a gifted child.

Out of curiosity, why?  While we have hsed in the past, both of my kids are in public school now so I'm not seriously invested in the concept that all gifted kids should be homeschooled.  I just wouldn't know why hsing a gifted kid would be a worse idea than hsing any other child.  The GT coordinator of the district dd12 was attending when she was younger actually told me that I ought to look @ homeschooling her b/c they weren't going to be able to meet her needs  .

We've generally found that the school gifted programs that you mentioned aren't a panacea for gifted kids.  They really seem to be a much better fit in terms of meeting needs of the "merely bright" you mentioned.  We've had to make some significant alterations to the typical school path for dds in order to make public school work.

[meemee]

i also want to add that 'gifted' is not one category. 

dd was identified gifted goes to a gifted school but still just tolerates it. if it wasnt for afterschool activities (which is free time to do what she wants, and kinda homeschooling) dd would have been depressed. i have come to accept that dd will always tolerate school. the good thing about school is she has at every class had GREAT teachers. she might not like them as teachers (she didnt 2 of them) but she loved them for who they were. 

hs would have been great for her. she is the kind who enjoys getting into something and spending days getting a hang of it. 

i would not have made a good hs teacher. so i tried looking for co-op hsing which i did find but couldnt do it financially.

dd was in a ps/dc since she was 2. a purely non academic play based place. to date she recalls the good times there. dd is a hands on projects based child. the kind of schools in my city is not going to suit her style of learning. i could have put her in a school which involved driving out an hour to reach there but it would really create a lot of hardship for us. 

so instead we do a lot of fun things when dd is home. she is not a structured child and we have not done anything structured - which is all going to change next month when she joins a couple of clubs in school. we'll see how that goes. i expect it to go well coz she is really enjoying the company of her peers. 

however at K (dd's focus is not academic - like she told her K teacher - i come to school to party - i go home to study). so dd enjoys very much the social aspect of school. group work. the teacher see her leadership qualities and give her more responsibilities which really help her deal better with school.

at 4 i really had no idea what would work best for dd at school. i was only looking at academics. it was really once dd started school that i understood what was important to her. 

going to an afternoon K helped. it also helped going to school half hour early so she could join in recess with the older kids. she was bored out of her mind in K (so she daydreamed a lot, it wasnt a gifted class) but man she loved going to school because she felt her teacher couldnt teach the class without her help.

till early 3rd grade we also took a lot of time off. a day here or there. more in K and 1st (the teacher knew) and not too many in 2nd and 3rd. those mental days off were REALLY helpful for her. 

[JudiAU]

Originally Posted by ChristaN 

Out of curiosity, why?  While we have hsed in the past, both of my kids are in public school now so I'm not seriously invested in the concept that all gifted kids should be homeschooled.  I just wouldn't know why hsing a gifted kid would be a worse idea than hsing any other child.  The GT coordinator of the district dd12 was attending when she was younger actually told me that I ought to look @ homeschooling her b/c they weren't going to be able to meet her needs  .

We've generally found that the school gifted programs that you mentioned aren't a panacea for gifted kids.  They really seem to be a much better fit in terms of meeting needs of the "merely bright" you mentioned.  We've had to make some significant alterations to the typical school path for dds in order to make public school work.

Why? I was part of an excellent gifted program in a public school so I know it can work. I'd prefer to offer enrichment at home in LO's primary area(s) of giftedness.

And I have a lot of negative experience with homeschooling (15+ cousins and family members), some of whom where gifted in various ways, that resulted in very limited educations and poor social skills.