How to lead a 5 year old to Zen?

[laohaire]

DD is a joy, but she can be unusually attached to things going precisely her way. Oh, I know that kids generally are like that but she leaves me scratching my head quite often. What I really can't understand is when a really good thing happens, she will fixate on some small inconvenience and it just ruins the entire good thing.

Some examples:

1) DD loves growing flowers. We went to secure and pay for a community garden plot. They had some planting flowers for sale and I had a couple bucks in my pocket, so I told her to pick one out. Happy happy day, right? But she was disappointed that I said only one. She spent some time nagging to get more and I explained I could only buy one today. And she just had this, you know, look on her face. I told her that I was really excited to give her a flower and hoped she would be happy, but if she was going to be mad about it, we wouldn't bother. But of course she wanted one rather than none, but the whole thing just was a total letdown.

2) We decided to do a movie night on an unusual night, so it was a special treat, and she got to pick out the movie. When we got home we decided to spend 15 minutes cleaning up and then we could settle down and enjoy the movie. We weren't even asking her to do any chores, just go play a bit while we cleaned up a few things. But she was so upset about waiting it just about ruined it, you know? Plus of course we spent a lot longer than 15 minutes because we were dealing with her on top of the cleaning. She got really sassy and eye-rolling and ultimately yelling and we put her in time-out. Then I spent a long time trying to talk to her and explain how she could choose to be happy about the good stuff (movie night! yay!) or she could choose to be upset over the details (having to wait 15 minutes). I spent quite a while trying to explain it to her but either she didn't get it or she's not buying it.

There's a million examples like those but I'll spare you, you get the idea. It sounds punitive to say that we should not bother getting her stuff or planning fun stuff, but it really seems more like a natural consequence to me. If I'm thinking "oh, I'd like to get her a flower" and then I think "well, if I do, she'll find something to be upset about, so I won't bother" then that's just natural, right? Who wants to turn a decent day into a total mess by attempting to do something nice, right? I've tried to explain that to her too, but she takes it as a threat (of course) and grudgingly (but not at all sincerely) says she'll be happy (so she can get/do the thing).

That said, she is not typically a sourpuss. In fact, I am often so pleased with how she can take something ordinary and be excited about it. I've heard plenty of times that the dinner I cooked was the "best dinner in the WORLD" or that a day was the "best day of my whole LIFE" which just brings a smile to my face. But it's specifically when there is the promise of some special thing that she seems to get it in her head that it has to be exactly a certain way, and she gets so upset when it's not absolutely everything she wanted.

I would love to help her embrace Zen and just be happy with what she's got and go with the flow and let go of her detailed expectations. Thoughts?

[NiteNicole]

Oh, we're parenting the same child.  Let me know if you figure out what to do with her.

We often say that it's not worth planning fun stuff because she always wants just a little more or in some way it ends up being not enough, not fun.  And yet she's so appreciative in other ways of other, smaller things.  She can't handle disappointment or changes in plans at ALL.  Oh, the snowcone stand is closed = tears and wailing (not like a temper tantrum, like she's actually just heartbroken) even though there were snow cones yesterday and probably will be snowcones tomorrow.  Snowcones aren't exactly thin on the ground.  A trip to the movies will end on a sour note when a water fountain on the way out is broken.  It's not like she's thirsty or she's never seen a water fountain before.  Much like her father, she just can't adapt to changes in plans, she can't seem to just roll with it. 

[Just1More]

Have you tried talking to her in general terms when it's a low stress time?  Maybe a conversation about how she would feel if she were trying to do something nice for someone and they got grumpy about it.  I think it's about teaching manners, really. 

[*bejeweled*]

Our DD (8 yo) can be this way sometimes. I usually nip it in the bud by not buying what I had offered. For example, with the flower I would not have not bought it and said something like, "Never mind. I'll leave it for someone else who will enjoy it." She gets the point pretty quickly.

If I offer something and she is less than enthused I just say "Never mind." Now she usually changes her attitude and I get it for her. She knows that she'll get nothing with a bad attitude.

Also, she is a bit of a perfectionist. If she gets overly upset over something really small like the snow cone stand being closed I'll tell her "Get over it." It may sound a little harsh, but the world does not revolve around her moods.

[hakeber]

My DS went through a phase like this at about 5 (Hormone influx I think) and then just as quickly as it cropped up it seems to have disappeared.  Through it all we tried to be consistent and calm and positive:"You are making a sad choice.  You could choose a happy choice!" and modelling appropriate communication "I really don't want to wait and I am unhappy, can I play Boowakwala while I wait?"

It was tiring and there were times where I seriously thought the child was possessed and it was time to send him back for a refund. LOL.  But then he calmed down.

We also upped the protein intake at breakfast a little more and tried to cut out artificial colors which helped a little with the mood swings, too. 

Good luck!  If you stay Zen she will pick it up from you and the phase will likely pass quickly.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by laohaire 

That said, she is not typically a sourpuss. In fact, I am often so pleased with how she can take something ordinary and be excited about it. I've heard plenty of times that the dinner I cooked was the "best dinner in the WORLD" or that a day was the "best day of my whole LIFE" which just brings a smile to my face. But it's specifically when there is the promise of some special thing that she seems to get it in her head that it has to be exactly a certain way, and she gets so upset when it's not absolutely everything she wanted.

I would love to help her embrace Zen and just be happy with what she's got and go with the flow and let go of her detailed expectations. Thoughts?

I think this is normal for all humans. And I say this gently - she's likely modelling what she sees in you. If her reaction to something special isn't what you want you seem to get upset with her (based on your examples above).   I think the way to help her be more Zen is to let go of some of your own expectations about how she should respond to things that matter to you and meet her where she is.  

I'd also suggest that teaching gratitude is often not best done in the middle of a disappointment (at least not when children are young). They are often not developmentally able to hold both those ideas in their head (that they are disappointed and that they should still be grateful for what they have).  

Sorry -I hope you aren't offended. It just struck me in reading your post that you may be struggling with the same issue she is.

Best of luck to you.

Karen

[laohaire]

Ha! Yeah.... no, DH and I are extremely laid-back. To a fault, it seems. I think our role in this is not that we have too many expectations but that we had far too few. We've realized we've tolerated far too many demanding and also impolite behaviors. We jump through hoops to please her. That worked back when she was mostly pleasant. But now that she's being entitled and snotty about it, we are now struck by our mistakes.

We model going with the flow constantly but it's invisible to her because she has no idea that we have feelings of our own and that we might have preferred something else. That is how laid-back we are. The store we were planning to go to was closed when we got there? Oh well. The farm is out of the only yogurt I like to buy? Oh well. We don't even notice it because that's just how we are. It's hard to model "oh, I'm so disappointed about the yogurt, but I am going to take a deep breath and let it go, and feel happy that we had a nice ride in the car" because I don't NEED to take a deep breath, DH and I will just shrug and hold hands on the way back to the car. So it's hard to come up with examples of things that we've had to really deal with because we don't really. Not because life goes our way all the time (it sure doesn't) but because we're not that disappointed.

But I don't expect a 5 year old to be on exactly that level, but I do regret our previous efforts to please her since she has now come to feel entitled to that instead of appreciative. And she just can't seem to move on from disappointment, at least not without a big blowout. (After the blowout, she does seem to move on).

I think we've not made her live with the consequences enough. Because DH and I are really laid-back, we tend to just let things go. Previously, we did not see the point in, say, denying her a flower we had intended to get her if she could at least nominally change her course. It would require more stubbornness on our part to make it go OUR way to do that, and we just never felt the need to be what we saw as draconian. But it seems that it would have been good for us to ensure she had the experience of knowing that she can't control everything, and that other people have wishes and feelings too. Again, DH and I are so laid back it probably seems to her like she is the only one with any wishes and therefore her wishes are central and trump everything else.

But I think I'm going to try cracking down on this. If she's not pleasant about something from the beginning, then it's just not going to happen. The thing that needs to change is that we should not allow a second chance. She just learns that she can demand anything she wants, and she can just modify her behavior (at least on the surface) if necessary. And that there is NO RISK to being a snotty, demanding, whiny kid. She can always take it back, she figures. So I think I need to tell her that any more behavior like that, of wanting more than is being given her, means she's not getting it at all, period, no matter how much she takes it back or goes "pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease?"

I also totally flipped out on her last night when, after cooking a favorite dinner for her and serving it the way she has liked the last 300 times I've served this dinner for her, she complained in really snotty way that she ONLY wanted the quinoa and she was NOT going to eat the chick peas (previously her favorite part). I looked at her in surprise and she responds by going "mama" in a "you're an idiot" tone and with the accompanying face and hand gesture. Cue flip-out from me. I told her from now on that she is not to say A SINGLE WORD about what she is not going to eat, what she doesn't like, what didn't meet her standards, and so on. She is simply to say "thank you" for the plate and eat whatever she wants off of it and leave anything she doesn't care for. That I was NOT going to get lectured by her about what should or should not be on her plate, what she does or does not like (which changes based on the tides), that we have never forced her to eat anything she didn't want, so just shut up about it (yeah I said that, bad me) and eat whatever she wants with a smile on her face, and leave the rest WITHOUT A WORD ABOUT IT.

So the question is not whether I can let go of my expectations but whether I can remain firm and consistent about this. I COULD just be zen about my kid being a total snot, but I don't think that's good parenting. My job is to teach her to live with other people, and that requires give and take. She's comfortable on the take part, but she's got to learn on the give part.

[*bejeweled*]

I think that this might be the key. Keep us informed of her progress. I'm sure that this is a phase.


quote:
If she's not pleasant about something from the beginning, then it's just not going to happen. The thing that needs to change is that we should not allow a second chance. She just learns that she can demand anything she wants, and she can just modify her behavior (at least on the surface) if necessary. And that there is NO RISK to being a snotty, demanding, whiny kid. She can always take it back, she figures. So I think I need to tell her that any more behavior like that, of wanting more than is being given her, means she's not getting it at all, period, no matter how much she takes it back or goes "pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease?"

[MsFortune]

We've realized we've tolerated far too many demanding and also impolite behaviors. We jump through hoops to please her.

++++

Well, it sounds like you have identified the issue.  I think your daughter does not need to be more zen - she needs to be more polite and flexible.  And the only way she is going to learn this is if you teach it to her by putting in place consistent boundaries and rules.  I get the reason behind your flip-out last night, but I'd caution against doing that and try to come up with a consistent plan.  So it feels predictable to your daughter.  Like, I can ask once, and I can beg once, but after that, if I push it, there will be consequences.  

I'd have a talk with her and tell her that there are new rules and kick it off that way.

That being said, the behaviors you described are pretty normal.  She does not sound like a monster.  I agree you need to do something about it, but you know.  

[applecider]

I have absolutely NO advice cause I'm in the same boat with my almost 6yo ds. In fact, I've been mulling over coming here to start a thread titled, "I'm about to become a hard ass." So I will be eagerly awaiting advice from others and how you are dealing with this! I'm not really a laid back person, but I do let things slide sometimes because I don't have the energy to deal with it. I need to stop that. I need to set firm boundaries and consequences but I often give in. Hope we can find some things that work! And I"m sure some of it is a phase and they will grow out of it...I hope.

[hakeber]

Hey Laohaire,

It is good to keep firm boundaries and if you think you have been too laiud back and not given enough guidance than it is probably time to tighten things up.

We all snap when pushed too far.  I don't think you should feel bad, but it might be worth visiting with her the reason you snapped and the feelings you had so that she understands that's not an okay way to talk to people, even for a Mommy or Daddy.

I struggled really hard at this age with DS and his behavior which seemed very unappreciative of everything his dad and I were doing to make his life comfortable.  We both felt used, abused and as if we had created a monster of greed and ingratitude.  I came here to complain and I remember a very wise mama here told me that children believe they deserve what they have been given.  So if you give them generosity and kindness, they believe that is what the deserve.  On the hand, when children are given neglect and abuse they feel they deserve that too.  Somehow this helped me to reframe the bratty entitlist attitudes from a sign of ingratitude to a sign of gratitude and a sign that I had done my job to make my child feel empowered, strong and deserving of everything they put their minds to.

It was also at this age that we instilled the work ethic.  We started to talk about money with DS and where things come from and allowed him to exchange hard work for money to buy what he wanted.  So if he wanted an ice cream in the middle of the week he went to his piggy bank and counted the pennies and saw if he had enough and if not, he would ask to do a chore like rake the garden, or wash the patio, or han out and fold the laundry.  We paid him in small amounts and let him spend it as he wanted.  One month he decided to save up his money to buy a pet fish and he did so good working so hard every day and saving his money and not buying ice cream or bubble gum from the dispenser at the grocery store, and he saved about 3 dollars (which took about 5 weeks) and we were very proud of his efforts so we doubled his money so he could buy two.  He was so happy and truly appreciative, maybe for the first time ever.  He still asks if he can do the dishes to earn some money or if he can tidy my office for some spending money, and now if he asks us for Ice cream and we say no, he goes to his piggy bank counts out his money and says "Well can I buy some ice cream for myself?"   It's just so much more pleasant to have in control of his own finances (that's sounds weird, but you know what I mean...right?).

So maybe that might be something to think about for your DD.  Sometimes, what they lack is the sense of how they contribute to the family.  What is their purpose?  How do they belong and add meaning to the family (that microcosm of society that IS their society in many ways)?  If they believe the only thing they can do is consume and be pandered to they will continue to behave that way, where as if they think they can contribute and be of value, they will do that. I think as humans they are hardwired to want to matter in real ways and will strive to be that person.  I do not think you made a mistake in making your child feel she is the center of your universe through her infancy and toddlerhood, but she is not a baby anymore and it's good to recognize that she is ready to conribute back to the family group in real ways and be a part of meeting her own needs.

And I also think that you can try to find learning moments about Zen attitudes for her, too.  When you plan to go to a movie and you get there and tickets are sold out, you can say "Boy, that's disappointing...so what are we going to instead?"  Don't let those moments slip by just because they are not upsetting to you.  Let her see that the upset is there but you are CHOOSING to feel it a different way and CHOOSING to channel your energy for positive rather than negative even if it is instinctual for you and always has been.  Not every spirit takes to this attitude naturally and some need to be taught how to manage those big feelings with better choices.  Plus you expressing disappointment when you perceive she might be disappointed may also help her feel she is not crazy and out of control for feeling sad about things not going according to her plan.

[Aegis]

In spite of me posting this, I'm learning to identify a problem's owner so I can spare myself the frustration of fixing a problem that isn't mine.  If my DS (4 y.o.) is upset because such-and-such wasn't available when we thought it would be, that's not really my problem.  His whining is annoying to me, but ultimately, the problem lies within him.  I do my best to validate his feelings and then ask him what he's going to do about it.  If he doesn't know what to do, I ask him if I can offer suggestions.  I suggest, then we discuss.  I feel as though this is forcing him to think through situations, how to cope with them, practicing the decision-making process, and learning that he has control over how things can go for him.  Now he actually thinks through the situation rather than act out.  This is from Love & Logic, by the way.  Even though we're don't use every technique from it, I'm loving it because what we have used has worked very well for our family.  It may or may not for yours, but it could be worth a shot?

I've also learned to place limits where they don't normally appear in order to help simplify things.  DS loves to race matchbox cars before bedtime, but it's not really my thing (right before bed, that is).  If it were up to him, we'd be racing until dawn.  When I would try to stop, he'd whine.  Now we start bedtime with, "Should we have zero races or one race tonight?"  We have our one race, and even though I know he wants to race more, he knows we settled on doing only one.  "Those options aren't okay?  Those are the two options.  I'll pick if you're not sure what to decide."  "Oh, you wanted the other choice?  What a bummer.  I'll tell you what... you get to decide next time." 

Since you said that you and your DH are pretty laid-back, maybe you could find opportunities to discuss handling emotions in stories you and your DD read together?  "Oh, I wonder what [character name] is feeling.  How do you think you would react in that situation?"  And provide feedback or start conversations about things like disappointment, frustration, fear, happiness, etc.  My son had to work through some speech deficits, and last year I did a lot of narrating to give him ideas of how to verbalize emotions.  I like to think I'm fairly laid-back and am definitely even-tempered, so it was something I really struggled with.  I probably sounded nuts to passers-by, but it did teach DS how to use phrases like "I'm frustrated!" appropriately.  Now I get to help him figure out how to un-frustrate himself...

[reezley]

I see her behavior as pretty normal (or at least it's like my 4.5 ds, whining that he wanted TWO cookies, etc.. so, normal to me anyway!).  Annoying, yes. But the approach of taking the offer off the table because of a less-than-ideal reaction doesn't sit right with me.  Like with the movie night.  She built up a vision of coming home and watching that movie. I can see how she can be disappointed to have to wait an extra 15 minutes.  But instead of cracking down on it why not just let her be frustrated?  Explain what you're doing, maybe even say, ohh, if I had told you that we planned to clean up a bit first, would you have been a little less disappointed?  You know, validate a little, not give in and not clean up, just hear her out and accept that she's a little disappointed.  Now, if she's really throwing a tantrum and making it impossible for you to clean up, then yeah, unacceptable.  But if not, then she'll just have to deal with the emotions and decide if she wants to change her mood and enjoy the movie afterward anyway.   I definitely agree with pps who said to go ahead and model being disappointed even if you're not all that disappointed.  Like if they don't have your yogurt, go ahead and mention that aww, darn, they don't have it today!   Well, maybe next time they will..  Or even, darn, they don't have my yogurt today! -- What should I do??  And see if she has any ideas on how to handle that. 

[laohaire]

I hear the arguments for just letting her have her feelings, but I've decided to take the "cracking down" route.

I "cracked down" on 2 or 3 things over the last few days. For some reason I can't remember what they were, but I do remember that DD was clearly surprised by it and expected to be able to just say Fine! or Soh-ree! and get what she wanted. While she was not happy about it, honestly she didn't get any more upset than she does when she works herself up into a snit in the first place, if that makes any sense.

Whether it's related to my crackdowns or not, she does seem to have been nicer and more appreciative in the last couple of days. This goes a long way for me, and I have way more patience for the occasional issue. I do expect a 5 year old to sometimes be upset about things or have a hard time working through something, but it was the constant entitlement that just wore me down to the nub.

[hakeber]

That's good that she is responding positively to the crack down.  Sometimes kids need a readjustment of the boundaries in order to function.

Any thoughts about the allowance/chores idea?  Our Ds has been an entirely different kid wth regards to thankfulness and enjoying what he has since we started with this. 

[proudmamanow]

just wanted to say thank you for this thread. I posted earlier about the negative attitude and behaviour of my 6 yo and I am coming to the same conclusion. And I find this dicussion very affirming. We are also trying to crack down a bit more on negativity (what I personally find challenging is stopping negativity w/o getting into my own negative lecture, iykwim). Good luck to all of us dealing with helping our kids improve their attitude and be more polite and grateful.