DP just found the two girls kissing...help!

[saffrongirl]

Background: I have a six year old dd and dp also has a six year old dd.  The girls have know each other since they were two and have basically grown up together.  We have dp's daughter every other evening and then one weekend night and day.  My daughter lives with us full-time. The girls are very close - play very well together and usually get along fairly well although they are really pretty different. 

This evening I was out and dp was watching the kids at home.  The girls were playing in their room (they have bunkbeds) and he didn't think anything of it.  Finally he went in to check on them and they were both under the covers.  He asked them to come out and they didn't.  Finally he flat out told them to come out.  My dd came out but his wouldn't.  He pulled the covers off her and she was laying there without pants on.  He asked her where her pants went and she said they were pretending to go to sleep and her pants "just fell off."  He was a bit flustered at that point and told both girls that he didn't know what to do but that he was going to tell both of their mothers.  At that point his dd flipped out and starting screaming and yelling, very upset.  My dd just sort of shrugged and walked away.  When I got home (about one minute later), dp explained the situation to me and I asked my dd to come to the bathroom with me.  I asked her nonchalantly how her night was and what they had been doing.  She muttered that they had been playing "husband and wife."  I asked what that meant and she said they were "doing what husbands and wives do."  I asked what that was and she said "you know, kissing."  I asked why her stepsister's pants were off and she said that my stepdaughter "just wanted to take them off."  She said neither of them had touched each other's or their own vaginas.  She said they have played the game before but that it made her feel "weird."  She said that this time my stepdaughter had said they should get under the covers so they wouldn't get in trouble.  I just kind of said "hm, well I think if something makes you feel weird or uncomfortable, maybe you should suggest a different game and if that doesn't work, just come to me and we'll hang out."  She accepted that and was fine and moved on.  She didn't seem to feel at any time that she was in trouble or anything and though I think she felt strange "telling on" my stepdaughter, she had no problem telling me what they were doing.  She then got ready for bed and about 20 minutes later as she was coloring, I just had sort of a generic chat with her about "appropriateness and private parts" and about how especially as we get older, we want to make sure we are being appropriate.  She seemed fine.

Here's the thing: I know some exploration is normal and that the girls kissing probably isn't a big deal.  I come from a place of being sexually abused when I was a kid so I immediately got all flushed and inwardly "alarmist" when the whole situation was presented by dp, but I think I handled it coolly with my dd.  I am concerned about why my stepdaughter wanted to take her pants off.  I'm also wondering where this husband/wife thing comes from (neither myself and her dad or her mom and mom's boyfriend are married).  And why did she get SO worked up about telling her mom?  

I'm just not sure how to handle this.  Should I keep them chaperoned at all times?  Do I have further conversations or am I just putting my own issues into the mess if I do that?  My dd seems fine and clear about it all.  But I know she wants to please people and wants to "be nice" regarding playing games that others want to play.  Arg!  Help! 

[meemee]

from my perspective this is normal. even the clothes off. my thinking is she has either see you and dp or her mom and bf OR maybe she hasnt seen anything but been told in school what sex is. my dd due to her own curiosity knew every single detail of sex by the time she was 4 1/2.

i think enough has been said and done. and nothing needs to be said anymore. just you and your dp's  reaction itself has shown the girls this is a no no. a lot of this happens around that age. i have seen boys pull on each others foreskin. i remember during a slumber party another girl touching my vagina when i was 9. i didnt tell anyone. i dont think anyone knew. but i still remember the yucky feeling and made sure i would never sleep near her when we had another slumber party. 

i think its a shock for us as parents to see what our children do. its the part of parenting not really talked about. most people scream abuse, when sometimes its just a curiousity. 

this is an excellent life lesson for your dd. to stand up and say no when she feels 'wierd'. 

there is this window of sexual experimentation. dd and one of her friends have laid full body touching with clothes on because that's what daddys and mommys do. (we never saw them - dd confided in me later) they were about ur kids ages. and they both knew the facts of life. they also knew it was a big no no to be caught laying together. he had proposed to her and she had accepted so there was nothing wrong with what they were doing. in their eyes. thats what married couples do. (in a few months they divorced because dd liked too many and couldnt make up her mind). and now the sexual thing is out the window. they have more important play to do. 

[elisheva]

I agree that this is normal at that age. If it were me, I wouldn't let them be alone, though.

[ellairiesmom]

I had posted a similar experience awhile back & was mortified when I got no response!  

I looked around on here more & found others who had been in the situation.  It is something that happened in my youth & I know kids do this.  I still don't like it though. 

We keep an eye on them more so now as a result but also try to not shame them about it or anything. 

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1285745/kissing-games-normal-how-to-talk-about-it#post_16119267

[Holiztic]

I think this is a bit suspicious, honestly. The fact that your step daughter seemed to be more in the lead, the fact that she made an attempt at a cover-up lie, then flipped out at the prospect of telling her mom.  This could be a difference in their personalities, maturity exposure, etc. but I do have to ask if you think there is any possibility that she has been or is being abused.  As with yourself, take my reaction with a grain of salt (for the same exact reason).  But if I were you I'd at least entertain the possibility in your own thinking before writing this off. I can, however, imagine that this *could be* totally developmentally normal. 

[bellydance2290]

I think that this is probably normal but I do agree with Holiztic about the possible sexual abuse.  That immediately came to mind when reading it and I would atleast entertain that as an option.  Can your DP bring this up with her Mom? 

[SilverFish]

i think that suspecting sexual abuse is a bit extreme. it seems quite normal to me, and i very clearly remember almost identical situations with a couple close friends. i can't imagine how mortified i would have been if an adult had caught us. i think you handled it very well, but there's no need to belabor the point. just have your DP gently discuss with his daughter that private parts are private or however you've decided to handle it, and move on. the fact that his DD freaked out might suggest that her mom already said something, harsh or not.

sexual exploration (even between siblings) is a normal, confusing part of growing up. i think one thing that might be important to consider is how you enter their rooms from now on. to be honest, entering the room and pulling the covers off is not necessarily the most respectful way to treat growing children. i'm not suggesting that you should be allowing them to continue doing what they were doing, but if they decide to explore themselves privately, i think it would be important for them to know that other people will knock, and not pull the covers off the bed. they're not little babies anymore, you can tell that they haven't harmed themselves or caused damage to the room by talking to them... i think it's important to allow them to have some measure of control.

as to where they got the idea, well, they're 6. more than old enough to know about husbands and wives, even if they don't have direct contact with married people. they know that something goes on between adult people, they know it's somehow connected to their genitals, and that's more than enough to provide incentive to experiment. the fact that your DPs DD was the instigator only means that maybe she's maturing a little faster, maybe she has school friends who are talking a little more, or whatever.

[ellairiesmom]

I definitely think it's extreme to say sexual abuse.  I have had this conversation recently with several close friends & family members.  Everyone remembers this sort of exploration & no one was abused. 

In our case, I believe my niece was upset over getting caught because she had been told that it wasn't appropriate & she didn't want to get into trouble or anything. 

[Lisa1970]

They are exposed to the idea of husband and wife all over the place, from in the home to on TV to out in public. I do not think this is a sign of child abuse.

[Linda on the move]

I think it's possible that it was normal exploration, but I think it's possible that someone takes her pants off of her and calls it "playing husband and wife."  I'd want to find out which.  I wouldn't want to be the adult who ignored a red flag and allowed a child to be repeatedly molested.

I sometimes wonder how many people saw flags in me and never bothered to figure out what was going on. My life would have been very different if someone had.

As the girls share a bedroom, I don't understand the advice to not leave them alone. I think that getting to bottom of the situation is far kinder than moving her bed.

I'd make some calls, and find someone with expertise at talking to children about these things. A rape crises center could most likely give you some good leads on professionals.

[swd12422]

I definitely think it's just normal exploration, but as a PP pointed out, your step-daughter's reaction, especially the cover-up/secret aspect, could be a sign of something improper going on with her. If she's close to you, maybe you could have a little talk with her and see if she can explain why she thought it was something they would get into trouble for, and why she got so upset when her dad said he was going to tell her mom. Sounds like if nothing else, she could use a pep talk on "good secrets" and "bad secrets" b/c you and DP really don't know what goes on when she's at her mom's house. (Is the mom married/partnered? Dating? Dating different men? Inviting lots of people to the house while her daughter is there? Does she go somewhere else like a babysitter?)

And yeah, reinforce with both of them that if someone wants to "play" something that makes them uncomfortable, they have to agree to play something else that they can agree on, or play separately. And that goes for play with others, too. That way, you're preparing them for handling even normal social situations when they don't want to do what the other kids are doing, whether it's a boring game or doing drugs or being promiscuous middle-schoolers. It's not just for protecting them from predators, there's a lot they'll be faced with and it will help if they are comfortable drawing lines for themselves. So you can use lots of examples as they grow and even now (like just with boring games or whatever) without being specific about this particular incident.

[Adaline'sMama]

Im coming at this from the kid who wasnt sexually abused point of view. I know my friend in and I played "husband and wife" numerous times throughout k-2nd grade. In second grade I wrote her a card that said that I thought we were too old to play the game anymore and that it wasnt really okay. I know she wasnt leading, we were both doing it. We kissed and sometimes layed on top of each other. We would take turns being the wife. I think it was totally normal exploration.

[cocoanib]

The exploration part is normal and the way you handled it with your DD seems like the way I would handle it.

I would however be sure that DP talked to his DD further about it and also speak with the mother. It does seem as if she was the leader of the game and I would want to be sure that nothing off color is going on.

I disagree about not coming in the room and pulling the covers back. Yes, children should have some privacy, but there is no way that I'm going to just allow private touching to go on between siblings and not get to the bottom of it.

[dovey]

deleted 

Edited by dovey - 6/10/11 at 9:55pm

[babygirlie]

a 7 year old sexually harrassing and manipulating a 4 year old?? oh heck no would she ever see that kid if she was my dd! I don't care if he's her best friend.. she's FOUR.. she'll find new friends. at 7 that's mimicking something bad not exploration at all. My opinion. I had a friend that a boy peed in her mouth also when she was very little and it really messed her up for her entire life. She had really bad conotations with sex and men after that and a huge distrust and wouldn't trust enough to even date much. It looked like the thought made her nauseas. this has probably done more harm that you could even imagine. I can't believe you would allow a boy who was trying to rape your dd around her. I'd want to move to another state! A girl who is naive and wants to please is #1 victim of young child molesters and he did indeed molest her.

ugh and wrong only because she was younger.. how about illegal? And so then it's ok for him to rape a 6 year old girl because she's older? blech blech blech

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by dovey 

They were horrified too, more by the public park aspect of things rather than the kids sexual exploration.  They talked to their son and told him that what they were doing was inappropriate because my daughter was so much younger than he was.  They also talked to him about sex. 

The other parents and I also decided to keep a closer eye on the kiddos, and make sure that we're aware of what games they are playing.  

So they told their son he should only pee in the mouths of 7 year old girls, and only in the privacy of their home, and you still see these people? You still have your sweet little girl around their son???"??

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by babygirlie 

a 7 year old sexually harrassing and manipulating a 4 year old?? oh heck no would she ever see that kid if she was my dd! I don't care if he's her best friend.. she's FOUR.. she'll find new friends. at 7 that's mimicking something bad not exploration at all. My opinion. I had a friend that a boy peed in her mouth also when she was very little and it really messed her up for her entire life. She had really bad conotations with sex and men after that and a huge distrust and wouldn't trust enough to even date much. It looked like the thought made her nauseas. this has probably done more harm that you could even imagine. I can't believe you would allow a boy who was trying to rape your dd around her. I'd want to move to another state! A girl who is naive and wants to please is #1 victim of young child molesters and he did indeed molest her.

ugh and wrong only because she was younger.. how about illegal? And so then it's ok for him to rape a 6 year old girl because she's older? blech blech blech

Curious what about the post caused such a strong reaction in you to want to move and to use words like molest and rape regarding a 7 yr old? What is the age difference where normal sexual exploration becomes molestation?

[aHikaru]

I would definitely keep a closer watch on them. I never remember getting naked when I was little, so that does worry me a bit as to why she would get naked and be suspicious.

just keep and eye out.

[AllisonR]

Originally Posted by babygirlie 

a 7 year old sexually harrassing and manipulating a 4 year old?? oh heck no would she ever see that kid if she was my dd! I don't care if he's her best friend.. she's FOUR.. she'll find new friends. at 7 that's mimicking something bad not exploration at all. My opinion. I had a friend that a boy peed in her mouth also when she was very little and it really messed her up for her entire life. She had really bad conotations with sex and men after that and a huge distrust and wouldn't trust enough to even date much. It looked like the thought made her nauseas. this has probably done more harm that you could even imagine. I can't believe you would allow a boy who was trying to rape your dd around her. I'd want to move to another state! A girl who is naive and wants to please is #1 victim of young child molesters and he did indeed molest her.

ugh and wrong only because she was younger.. how about illegal? And so then it's ok for him to rape a 6 year old girl because she's older? blech blech blech

WOW, this is really out of line and uncalled for. A 7yo does not rape. You may have issues you need to work out, but I don't think you should lay it on dovey or the other posters.

OP  - my take is that perhaps it was more guilt for getting caught, getting in trouble? Maybe they were curious, and were doing something they knew was "off," but they were not yet sure how or why it was "off". My DS is 6 and DD is 4, and up until very recently they were going to grow up and get married and DD was going to have two babies. My 6yo has now said he can't marry his sister, but he doesn't get the whole concept, because he will still say they are boyfriend and girlfriend. Plus they have other boyfriends/girlfriends. They did a lot of role play with this, I think much more to discover how people work, how riles work, than an sexual reason. Including a few penis / yoni jokes in the bathtub, mixed in with fart and burp jokes - it's apparently all funny. My DD is in love with her girlfriend Thilde, but Tilde is in love with another boy in their pre-school. Whatever.

FWIW, when my DS was just over 6 he came and we had this conversation, which he so totally casual about, it kind of kept it in perspective for me.

DS "Sigrid is not my girlfriend anymore."

ME "OK. Why not?"

DS " I kissed her on the mouth."

ME "OK. What did Sigrid say?"

DS "She said 'Why did you do that?"

ME "What did you say?"

DS "Nothing. I went to play with Emil"

DS "It flet weird anyway. It was soggy."

[babygirlie]

Because my friend was permanently traumetized by another child doing that to her.. and it was all over the grade school.

Because this is how molesters start.. get a book.

I dont believe everyone explores naturally. None of my friends nor I kissed or fondled or anything like that and we had plenty of unsupervised time. We never brought sex into playing house nor kissing. If we played doctor it was on the family pet. So no.. you guys are brishing all this under the table when no, it is NOT normal.

The normal age for kids to start having sex i snow 9 years old. 7 isnt that far off from that and a 7 year old is quite smart. Not a toddler wondering for the first time what a penis is.

Anyone who has a concern with my post.. I fear for your children. they are going to wonder why you didn't step in and DO something and just ignored their needs as if they weren't important. They are not going to think oh its natural they will be mentally disturbed for life. These are not things you ever forget. they are big deals and you need to protect your children. I'm sad that they are growing up thinking you don't care. That's what parents of molested children do.. they blow it off and it makes the child feel like crap and unimportant enough to protect. Its not ok to blow it off. They NEED you.

A child "experimenting" like that is having someone else do it to them.

Very disturbing