Considering leaving - Need some advice from MN moms re: legalities

[MrsJez]

I am considering what it would look like if I left my husband.

We have two boys. Our oldest will enter Kindergarten this fall. Our youngest will turn 3 in July.

His family is in the Twin Cities - mine is about an hour north of the Twin Cities in a smaller town where I grew up. I would like to plan to move to this town where my support system would be.

We were planning to homeschool our children - but if I left that would not be feasible.

My concerns are:

1.) Finances - how would I be able to make ends meet, pay rent, buy food, etc. as well as be able to go to school. I am working on a graduate degree in special education and would get a license to teach in about two years. If I went on public assistance while I was in school, I'm fairly certain they would go after my husband for some money. Is this a correct assumption? Because that would not be okay with me. I would be way too embarrassed.

2.) Custody - I would be willing to consider joint custody, but not when we live an hour apart from each other. Especially with a child attending school. Does anybody have any ideas for solutions to this? I was considering letting him know that I would consider joint if he would move to at least be near the city I would be living in.

3.) His mother is retired and I am so nervous that he would want to keep me here (in the Twin Cities) by saying she could care for our youngest (instead of me putting him in daycare if I had to).

Ayayayay!!! Where does someone start with all of this?

Thank you for any help or advice or encouragement you could give. I really appreciate it!

[doubledutch]

hi aly!  i'm also in minnesota.  i don't have answers to everything you asked, but i have a few thoughts.

1) if you qualify for public assistance (which is likely, as a single student mother of two), yes, child support would be enforced.  why would you be embarrassed by your children receiving financial support from their father?

2) the preference in minnesota is for one parent to have primary physical custody and the other to have "parenting time" (or what used to be called visitation).  in order to get 50-50 joint physical custody, you'd have to demonstrate that it is in the best interest of the children.  it's not really doable for school-age children whose parents are living apart, but some families share more than every-other-weekend by the ncp getting extra time during school breaks.

3) if you are awarded custody, it doesn't matter that he wants you to stay there and leave your younger child with his mom.  it wouldn't really be his decision.  so he can say that all he wants, it's still up to you.  but . . . would she make a good care provider?  would you like it if he were with her?  your family is only an hour away as it is - if staying in the cities and having his mother provide child care would lighten your load financially, then that reduced stress may be a good trade-off for moving closer to your family.  on the other hand, you could move half way in between and be only 30 minutes from your family and from your ex.  that would at least allow for an evening with dad on a weekly basis, and would make it a lot easier for both parents to be at their little events and activities.

if you move back to the town where your family is from, how would that shape your financial picture?  are there jobs?  are housing and childcare cheaper?  would you be eating dinner with family often enough to reduce your grocery budget?  would the gas to pick up your children from their dad's house be worth it?  what are the other benefits?  (specific ways your family will support you, better schools, space from ex if you need that . . . )

it's a lot to think about.  good luck!

[MrsJez]

I would not want him to know I was receiving public assistance and I think that he would have to know if the county went after him.

I really wouldn't want his mom to be the daycare. She is a nice lady and all - but she's not very active and that wouldn't be good for our YDS.

I would want to move back so that I would have my own family to be able to help me out - babysitting, closer for emotional support, etc. It's cheaper for rent and such as well. It's where I grew up, it's a smaller town and I would just feel comfortable going to where I know I have a bunch of people around that I know would be able to be my support through this.

I would want everything to be as amicable as possible. I would rather it not be a long drawn out process with court dates etc. I don't have the money for a lawyer and neither does he. I don't even have family that would have enough money to loan me for a lawyer.

He is previously divorced and his 1st divorce was reeeeaalllyyy nasty...and expensive. He fought for joint and she got sole so he's really burned by that and he's really burned by the family court system. I see a lot of value in both parents being as involved as possible and would really want him to be a significant part of the boys' lives. But I can't see how we could do that unless we lived in the same town or very near to one another.

I am just sooooo scared that he will go ape and turn this into a really nasty battle. I have fear because I don't have a means to support myself and my kids if I leave and I would be afraid the court would look down upon that. I have a history of anxiety/depression but it has been very well controlled and treated - but I would be afraid that he would use that against me.

He can be kind of a hot head (which is one of the reasons I am considering leaving) and so I can totally see it getting completely out of control. And so I want to kind of have things figured out...or at least some solutions to propose so that he wouldn't feel defensive and drag this out.

Sorry - this got kind of long. Thank you for responding to my post!

[RollerCoasterMama]

If you're on assistance because you're finishing up a degree that will enable you to support your family later, that is NOTHING to be embarrassed about!  You do what you need to do!  I have a J.D. and was considering a long term plan to go back for a PhD which would likely have involved some sort of assistance.  I looked at it as temporary...I'd been paying into the system all these years and would be contributing again for another 30.  [ETA:  Just to clarify...I don't think being on assistance is embarrassing.  It's a service that's there for a reason, and I fully advocate people using that service when they have a need!  Just addressing this particular situation.  Thought I better nip that argument before this thread went up in flames!  ;)]

If you have a parenting agreement with your STBX, the court isn't going to let you waive child support anyway.  They need a REALLY good reason to deviate from the standard calculation.  It's sort of paternalistic, but in a way, they're trying to protect you from waiving child support to avoid make the divorce easier.  This way it's the state's "fault", not yours.  (Technically, they're protecting the kids from you waiving child support...the children are entitled to similar financial support that they'd have if the parents stayed together.) 

I went through a MN divorce last summer.  MN likes to do sole legal custody to one main parent with joint parenting time, just like the PP said.  Even with living an hour or so apart, that wouldn't really impair your ability to do the usual every other weekend type schedule.  Heck, an hour drive around here is nothing!  I do like the idea of living kind of at the half-way point though.  30 mins from family---easy drive, and 30 mins give or take from their dad.  Even if you live an hour or two or three away, there's no reason you couldn't work out pretty reasonable visitation. 

You should work out a plan to support you and the kids first off.  Having a plan will reduce your stress level.  And a judge isn't going to look down on your for being a student! 

If you and ex can come to a simple agreement, you can get divorced pretty inexpensively using just one attorney.  I pretty much wrote my own divorce after going over things with ex (so it wasn't a surprise) and just got my own attorney.  It was pretty simple.  If you're not going to argue about things, a simple divorce would maybe be $1200-ish.  Not sure exactly, mine was only $300 because I had a legal benefit through work so I just paid filing fees.  $1200 might be on the high end.  Plus there are legal aid clinics you might qualify for.  Call around to the law schools to find out.

Look at the child support calculator.  It might help you figure out budgets.  It's always best to make your budget with zero child support just in case, but this will show you what your breathing room looks like.  http://childsupportcalculator.dhs.state.mn.us/Calculator.aspx  It was pretty accurate for us.  The attorney and judges use the same calculator. 

Another thought on where to live...really, an hour away isn't far, so I think you've got a lot of flexibility here.  Where are you going to school?  It might be easier to live close by rather than commuting.  The one big thing I hate hate hate about the metro is commuting...esp in the winter!  As a result, I live very close to where I work and chose child-care and school for my DS accordingly.  Not spending hours in the car every day is worth it even though most of my friends live on the other side of the metro and I almost never see anyone!

Good luck!  Breath!  This stage is overwhelming, but you'll make it!

Edited by RollerCoasterMama - 5/20/11 at 12:32pm

[One_Girl]

I am not in that state, but you may want to consult with a lawyer before you move with the kids (especially if you think there is a possibility of him getting nasty during the divorce proceedings).  In some states the court will force you to either go back, to be responsible for all costs associated with bringing hte kids to the visitations and back home if the drive isn't too long for the kids to do frequently, or will make the other parent the custodial parent.  If you go with a lawyer from the start you can also get a temporary custody and support order in place and he won't have to know that you are on public assistance when you qualify because they won't do a second order.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

I am not in that state, but you may want to consult with a lawyer before you move with the kids (especially if you think there is a possibility of him getting nasty during the divorce proceedings).  In some states the court will force you to either go back, to be responsible for all costs associated with bringing hte kids to the visitations and back home if the drive isn't too long for the kids to do frequently, or will make the other parent the custodial parent.  If you go with a lawyer from the start you can also get a temporary custody and support order in place and he won't have to know that you are on public assistance when you qualify because they won't do a second order.

I would speak with a lawyer as well, but moving 30min (as RCM suggested) or an hour away, is NOT going to cause custody to flip.  Picking up the kids and moving 500miles?  THAT would flip custody in some situations.

[tccandlsccmom]

First, hug.  Second, I am in a huge and nasty custody battle and I have concluded I should have done more research before leaving...though I am in a split state situation...

So, I concur with PP  that you should consult an attorney before you go forward....but assuming you are in a place that you have determined it best for you and your children to be apart from their dad, to plan HOW not WHETHER.  There may be free or reduced price resources that can help ..

See:

http://www.lawhelpmn.org/MN/StateSubTopics.cfm/County/%20/City/%20/demoMode/%3D%201/Language/1/State/MN/TextOnly/N/ZipCode/%20/LoggedIn/0/iTopicID/264/sTopicImage/familyjuvenile.gif/bAllState/0 

http://www.mncourts.gov/selfhelp/?page=251

http://www.d.umn.edu/~wwwpol/PreLaw/mnlawschools.htm

http://www.minnesotalawyers.com/

Stay strong!

[MissLotus]

The thing is, would you even need public assistance if your ex properly provided child support (and perhaps maintenance/alimony) to begin with?  And like someone else said, receiving assistance is nothing to be embarrassed about - I'm assuming you watched the children for him while he forged ahead with his career - well, now you need a leg up, like many women that have put their working/financial lives aside while raising children, to get onto the same playing ground.  And that's okay.

And yes, he will be expected to pay child supprt - as he should!!!! - either way.  I'm sure he already knows that.  And in any divorce where children are involved, that is part and parcel of the whole package.  I was able to keep my divorce out of court, but our divorce agreement still had to show that a child support arrangement was in place.

Definitely consult with a lawyer as soon as you can - you need to educate yourself about what's common in your area, and what's considered "reasonable" when moving, before you offer any kind of custody arrangement you may not be comfortable with later.  A lawyer will also help you get an idea of what you'll be entitled to financially, which will impact how you go about making decisions.

[doubledutch]

the same agency enforces child support whether they're doing it because you're on assistance, or because you asked them to (and paid a fee) to have it enforced.  i can't think of any reason they would inform your ex that you're also receiving assistance.  they are just enforcing a court order.

[MrsJez]

He can't afford to pay me or the county a huge amount in support. He already pays his ex-wife $810/mo. If you add on basic living expenses he won't have anything left from his paycheck. I did the calculator online to see what he would have to pay if I got child care assistance and medical care. He would have to pay something like 1100/mo. He wouldn't have hardly a dime to himself after he paid the ex and I (or the county). So I'm just trying to figure out how on earth I can make it on my own.

Would we be able to come to some sort of agreement out of the courts in regards to child support? And then if I agreed to receive less, would I be eligible for food stamps at least?  I suppose I would need to contact a social worker and a lawyer to find this stuff out.

I just feel like if I'm the one leaving, why should he be punished? I know he has a responsibility to care for the children we have together - and I believe he can reasonably help me with that. But I don't think it should be so extreme that it leaves him destitute. 

Should I let him know now that I am considering this? Would it be devious of me to be meeting with a lawyer and such behind his back? Or is it normal to get a "plan" in place before you discuss this with a spouse?

Thank you all for sharing and giving advice. It's really helpful to hear I'm not alone.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by MrsJez 

He can't afford to pay me or the county a huge amount in support. He already pays his ex-wife $810/mo. If you add on basic living expenses he won't have anything left from his paycheck. I did the calculator online to see what he would have to pay if I got child care assistance and medical care. He would have to pay something like 1100/mo. He wouldn't have hardly a dime to himself after he paid the ex and I (or the county). So I'm just trying to figure out how on earth I can make it on my own.

When using the calculator, subtract from his income the amount that he pays to his first ex, and THEN run the numbers.  It won't be 1100, but it'll be something.

Would we be able to come to some sort of agreement out of the courts in regards to child support? And then if I agreed to receive less, would I be eligible for food stamps at least?  I suppose I would need to contact a social worker and a lawyer to find this stuff out.

Maybe, but judges are loath to allow parents to agree to far less child support than should be ordered b/c judges are primarily concerned with children being financially supported.  You may qualify for food stamps, as child support does not count as your income (it counts as the children's income) and shouldn't affect your elligibility for food stamps.  If you get cash assistance thats when the state takes the child support.

I just feel like if I'm the one leaving, why should he be punished? I know he has a responsibility to care for the children we have together - and I believe he can reasonably help me with that. But I don't think it should be so extreme that it leaves him destitute. 

It won't leave him destitute.  The court will order that he pay the same % of his income that other fathers are required to pay.

Should I let him know now that I am considering this? Would it be devious of me to be meeting with a lawyer and such behind his back? Or is it normal to get a "plan" in place before you discuss this with a spouse?

I don't know, I don't have an answer to that last question.  I think it depends on how you think he will react.  I was served before I met with my lawyer (just custody, I have never been married).

[rubelin]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Maybe, but judges are loath to allow parents to agree to far less child support than should be ordered b/c judges are primarily concerned with children being financially supported.  You may qualify for food stamps, as child support does not count as your income (it counts as the children's income) and shouldn't affect your elligibility for food stamps.  If you get cash assistance thats when the state takes the child support.

Actually, child support DOES count towards my income (in CA) and disqualifies me for food stamps.