So what does CPS look for? Can they inestigate over any concerned call from someone? I'm in Canada.

[MamitaM]

I'm not to worried about CPS coming around or anything,but I suppose it could happen to anyone. So what does CPS look for when they come to your door? Do they need some kind of warrant or paper work to come in when they arrive unannounced? How clean does you home need to be? How much food do you need to have in your home?

[kathymuggle]

Hi

I am in Ontario, I have called CAS (CPS for Americans) on someone, and my neighbour had dealings with them.

Here is what I know:

If you call, one of three things will happen (as told to me by CAS when I called on someone)

-they will discuss it and go no further

-they will call the family

-they will visit the family

If they visit, they might take pictures.  They are looking for:

food in the house

bed for kids 

proper clothing

drugs, dangerous things left out, etc

My sister, who lives in Montreal, has a friend who is a cop - the cop says the house has to be really filthy for them to consider removal.

I do not know whether or not you have to let them in.  My gut says "no".  They might not be able to close the file unless they come in and check things out, though.  I am not sure whether I would let them in or not.  You can always, if they come to the door, say you are on your way out and "would they like to make an appointment?".  I would have DP or a friend around for the appointment - I think they may be more careful if there is an audience.

Here is a pamphlet from Quebec - it may be useful

http://publications.msss.gouv.qc.ca/acrobat/f/documentation/2008/08-838-01A.pdf

Edited by kathymuggle - 5/21/11 at 7:16pm

[beenmum]

If CAS comes knocking, do not stop them from comming in. Seriosuly, these people have the right to remove your child. I know some people say "Its my house, they cant just come in w/o a warrent."

YEs they can. And if you refuse, you will be looked at more closely then someone who opens their doors even tho their dishes arent done and the kids beds arent made.

These people dont care about that. They have been called to ensure your kids are safe. Why not allow them to see that they are safe and you will cooperate any way you can to have the case closed.

CAS doesnt want to take kids. Foster homes are scarse, ill paid and often illequipted to deal with some of the thigns they have seen.

If your neighbour called b/c of a grudge, your b/c your breatfeeding your 2 year old......they are not gonna take your kids.

But if you block them...they automatically feel there is something you want to hide.

You have rights..but seriously you need (in general) to put your kids first. If nothign is wrong then there is nothing to hide.

Procedure is this: There are levels of concern.

Level one is a complaint but no worker sent out. If 3 of these types of complaints have been made, they will send someone out.

If there is a suggestion of abuse and you have a 2 year old or younger in the home, they have to send someone in 2 hours or less.

[waiting2bemommy]

Originally Posted by beenmum 

If CAS comes knocking, do not stop them from comming in. Seriosuly, these people have the right to remove your child. I know some people say "Its my house, they cant just come in w/o a warrent."

YEs they can. And if you refuse, you will be looked at more closely then someone who opens their doors even tho their dishes arent done and the kids beds arent made.

These people dont care about that. They have been called to ensure your kids are safe. Why not allow them to see that they are safe and you will cooperate any way you can to have the case closed.

CAS doesnt want to take kids. Foster homes are scarse, ill paid and often illequipted to deal with some of the thigns they have seen.

If your neighbour called b/c of a grudge, your b/c your breatfeeding your 2 year old......they are not gonna take your kids.

But if you block them...they automatically feel there is something you want to hide.

You have rights..but seriously you need (in general) to put your kids first. If nothign is wrong then there is nothing to hide.

Procedure is this: There are levels of concern.

Level one is a complaint but no worker sent out. If 3 of these types of complaints have been made, they will send someone out.

If there is a suggestion of abuse and you have a 2 year old or younger in the home, they have to send someone in 2 hours or less.

I assume this is Canadian law, because that's not how it works in the US. They didn't come in my house, and they didn't take my kids. And there was an allegation of sexual abuse. And they came with the police. I told them, in front of the cop, to make an appointment. I don't let friends in my house unanounced when it's a mess, why wouold I let some random stranger who doesn't even have children come in and tell me whether I'm doing it right?

I videotaped every interaction and let them know I was doing it. I took down the cop's badge number, and the last name and supervisor's name of the two case workers. the experience still sucked, believe me, but I did NOT just fling open my door and say "come on in." That's foolhardy.
 

[LROM]

Originally Posted by waiting2bemommy 

I assume this is Canadian law, because that's not how it works in the US. They didn't come in my house, and they didn't take my kids. And there was an allegation of sexual abuse. And they came with the police. I told them, in front of the cop, to make an appointment. I don't let friends in my house unanounced when it's a mess, why wouold I let some random stranger who doesn't even have children come in and tell me whether I'm doing it right?

I videotaped every interaction and let them know I was doing it. I took down the cop's badge number, and the last name and supervisor's name of the two case workers. the experience still sucked, believe me, but I did NOT just fling open my door and say "come on in." That's foolhardy.
 

Actually, what Beenmum said IS how it works... in many states.  I don't know if you are in a state that doesn't work that way, or if for some reason the CPS worker and cops that responded to you decided not to insist on seeing your kids, but in most states - depending on the allegations - CPS DOES have a right to see your kids, and if you refuse, - again, depending on the allegations - they can come back with a cop and insist or take your kids.  That is true in most states.  Because, as Beenmum said, CPS's primary and *legal*responsibility is to protect children from abuse and neglect.  CPS is usually not gonna force their way in for a dirty house complaint... but for serious abuse complaints, yes, they can and they should.

And another thing Beenmum says that is also absolutely true for most of the 50 states: even where you can tell CPS to go away and make an appt or come back when you, the parent, want them to, there is absolutely immediately a raised concern about why you don't want CPS to see/talk to your kids if you refuse.  Even though CPS can't and shouldn't take any actual action against a parent (like removing kids) until there is substantiated (confirmed) abuse or neglect, depending on what the allegations are there is a raised concern where a parent refuses to produce the kids or speak to CPS or let the kids be spoken to.  What that raised concern means CPS does next... is a local issue.  But for the most part, if anyone ever called CPS on me (and I work for CPS!) I'd immediately let them in and let them see/speak to my kid, because I have nothing to hide.  And I honestly see that most parents who do that - *especially* where the report is a malicious one by someone just wanting to cause trouble for the family - the sooner the CPS worker can see there are no concerns, the fast the issue is closed and you are not bothered. 

Of course, if you've got something to hide, that's a different issue.  And if you've got a real, profound distrust of CPS, that is also an issue, and some people have good reason to have that distrust.  But what I am saying about how the refusal to talk or produce the kids is seen is true almost across the board, so even with a profound distrust, you still need to understand some of the consequences of not speaking to CPS or coorperating - even where you know 100% for sure that someone meaning to cause you harm made the report.

And for the record, the number of malicious reports CPS receives (in US and in Canada) is seriously miniscule compared to the number of reports where there are real issues.  Tiny.  Please keep that in mind too - CPS has a lot more important things to do than go out and investigate bogus reports, so the faster we can figure out it's bogus, the better for those who really need CPS interventions.

 

[beenmum]

Thank you LROM. I did work with CAS and did my foster parent training with them. I am well versed in how this works. I dont knw anyone who has said "No you can not see my kids whom you are sworn to protect b/c I should hav rights that keep my kids safety from being investiagted.

Shoudlnt happen. Ever.

And they CAN just come into your home. They do not need an invitation. IF you refuse, you will be put to the fdront of the caseload and you will have a judge signing to remove your kids before the end of the day.

seriously, telling the CAS that your home is too untidy to let them in, is foolhearty. You will be red flagged. They HAVE to investigate.

[kathymuggle]

I am not sure the above is true - they may need a warrant to come into your house and if they do not have grounds they might not get one.

However, that does put CPS in an awkward spot - they cannot close the case until they tick off all their boxes - seeing your kids and your house is a box.

I am not sure what i would do if CPS landed on my door.  If the house was not a disaster area I would let them in.  If it was, we could meet on the porch, I would bring my kids outside so they could see them, and I would arrange a visit for in the future if they still wanted one.

In my mind my house is never dirty enough to warrant intervention - but clean is subjective, and no way am I taking my chances on someone trying to make a case, or a mess-phobe (unlikely, I know)

i suppose it could raise red flags that I refuse to let them in right away, but mess can raise red flags too.  Pick your flag.  At least with refusing to let them in everything they think is assumption - there is no proof.

[beenmum]

They do NOT need a warrent to come into your home. They need a warrent to remove your kids. Which they can get by the end of the day if you refuse them access to your children. Lack of access means the kids safety can not be verified. And CAS will remove your kids if you have obstructed their jobs in anyway.

Its a fact.

You have had 2 people who work(ed) for them tell you this. Please take it to heart so you are not risking your kids removal b/c you thhink your house isnt tidy enough.

There has to be an immediate danger to the safety of your kids in your home (medications left through the house, drugs, garbadge from room to room, feces and rotten food and lack of proper beds, food and tioletries before they will take your kids for a messy house.

I have seen this first hand. Walked into homes that had rat poo, garbadge and small peices strewn all over. They gave the women 4 hours to clean it to "safety" standards. Not CLEAN, SAFE.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by beenmum 

And they CAN just come into your home. They do not need an invitation. IF you refuse, you will be put to the fdront of the caseload and you will have a judge signing to remove your kids before the end of the day.

A judge is going to remove my kids because I refuse entry at this exact minute?  Seriously?  On what grounds?  What happened to presumed innocence? 

[APToddlerMama]

Thank you LROM.  I hope this doesn't turn into another MDC CPS hysteria thread.

OP, I'm a social worker and as long as I don't have animal or human poop piling up in my house, 25 bags of garbage in my living room, used needles on my countertop, 30 unfed cats, or a family of rats living here, I don't worry.  Seriously.  I never even would *think* to make sure I had food in my house for a surprise CPS visit.  I have enough food for our needs, and that is that.  CPS has way better things to do than investigate bogus allegations.  If your child doesn't look malnourished and hungry, they aren't going to care about your food situation.  If they *do*, it is typically to help link families to resources so that they can get the food they need.   Poverty isn't a reason to remove children from homes.  Don't be fearful of CPS.... they truly aren't out to get you and you are way more likely to get struck by lightening that have CPS come out and grab your child.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by beenmum 

They do NOT need a warrent to come into your home. They need a warrent to remove your kids. Which they can get by the end of the day if you refuse them access to your children. Lack of access means the kids safety can not be verified. And CAS will remove your kids if you have obstructed their jobs in anyway.

Its a fact.

You have had 2 people who work(ed) for them tell you this. Please take it to heart so you are not risking your kids removal b/c you thhink your house isnt tidy enough.

There has to be an immediate danger to the safety of your kids in your home (medications left through the house, drugs, garbadge from room to room, feces and rotten food and lack of proper beds, food and tioletries before they will take your kids for a messy house.

I have seen this first hand. Walked into homes that had rat poo, garbadge and small peices strewn all over. They gave the women 4 hours to clean it to "safety" standards. Not CLEAN, SAFE.

I am going to bow out of this conversation because I just do not know and do not want to give out false information.

There are numerous stories and information all over the internet on whether or not you have to admit CPS to your house.  I think people should read all sides and figure out what they feel best doing.

On a personal level, I am not worried for one moment about CPS showing up on my doorstep - nor am I worried for one moment about my ability to have them close the case in quick order.

[LROM]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

A judge is going to remove my kids because I refuse entry at this exact minute?  Seriously?  On what grounds?  What happened to presumed innocence? 

You're missing a key factor that both beenmum and I said - IT DEPENDS ON THE ALLEGATIONS.  It depends on the nature of the report that was received and what type of abuse/neglect someone said your kids were experiencing.

And if it's bad enough, and you refuse to allow CPS to see your kids and speak to you and your kids, YES, because someone has given specific enough and serious enough information to make the concern about the safety/wellbeing of your children the top priority.

No one has said you are presumed guilty because you refuse entry, so I don't have a clue what you're talking about with "presumed innocence" - insisting on seeing your kids does not presume guilt.  It insures that a serious allegation of bad stuff happening to your kids has been checked out, because that is our job and kids who are abused are in no position to protect themselves. 

Again, children cannot be REMOVED unless there is a confirmed case of child maltreatment, and trust me, almost all over North America it has to be VERY serious for the kids to actually be removed on the spot.  The far far FAR more common situation is that CPS finds serious concerns but does not remove in hopes that with supports the family can stay together.  Or we work with the parents to identify family/friends known to parent and child that the child could stay with while the safety threat is dealt with.

So just to make sure this is clearn, no, no judge is going to allow a child to be removed (nor is CPS going to remove a child) simply because you refused entry to your house.  What CPS/a judge CAN insist on is that your children are seen and you adn your kids (if old enough) are talked to about the allegations and that whatever CPS needs to do to further check out the allegations is done.  And yes, if the allegations are serious enough and you refuse to cooperate, CPS can take your kids because again, if the allegations are true, they are in no position to protect themselves.

Guilt or - more accurately - abuse or neglect - is never assumed.  It is investigated and either confirmed or there is an official record that no evidence of maltreatment was found.  If it's confirmed, and understand it usually takes some pretty obvious stuff for it to be confirmed, and it's the type of abuse that removal is required to insure safety, YES, yoru kids will be removed.  But never just solely because you wouldn't let CPS in when they showed up at your door.

[APToddlerMama]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

A judge is going to remove my kids because I refuse entry at this exact minute?  Seriously?  On what grounds?  What happened to presumed innocence? 

Child safety is considered more important that "presumed innocence," which is how it should be.  And it really isn't about guilt or innocence anyhow...it is about ensuring that a child is safe, and it is impossible to know without access. It isn't like the parent gets carted off to jail immediately.  There are a lot of individuals on these boards who seem to think CPS is public enemy number one.  99% of the time, CPS is investigating serious allegations.  Truthfully, we should be willing to accept that there are rare occassions when a family may have contact with CPS for bogus reasons, but this ensures that the other 99 children CPS has contact with are hopefully protected from abuse and neglect. 

If you have nothing to hide, your best bet is to let CPS "investigate."  That is the best way to make them go away.  A person refusing access to their home or child seems like someone who has something to hide. 

[Drummer's Wife]

I'm not in Canada, so I won't pretend to know anything about their version of CPS; however, I am positive that there are far more children who are killed or injured every year b/c they were left in their homes compared to the amount of children who are unjustly removed from their home. 

Just something to think about when you worry about CPS involvement, and for anyone who is convinced they are out to take your kids from you for no reason. 

I would hate, hate, hate it if I had child protection all up in my business investigating my family and putting us through hell.  More important, though, is that children who are abused and neglected are adequately protected, as they should be. 

[Irishmommy]

I'm in Ontario and I'm a former foster parent. Beenmum is correct except for (unless they've changed things) the needing a warrant to remove your kids. They don't need a warrant to come in and speak with your kids, and can speak with the kids at school if needed. The workers in my area at least do not make the removal decision. They always call the supervisor, give a report, and the supervisor makes the decision. The kids can be removed on the spot, and they have, iirc 48 hours to get before a judge to justify removal (could be 72, I can't remember offhand). Then the judge decides yay or nay to keeping the kids in care.

I have seen foster parents with messy houses. I have seen parents keep their kids while living in houses that I wouldn't keep a dog in. I have seen CAS pay $10,000 to get someone's house cleaned to a decent standard, so the kids can stay with their parents. I have seen ONE removal that in hindsight wasn't necessary, but at the time it was, and those kids were with me 15 hours before being returned home.

[waiting2bemommy]

Originally Posted by LROM 

Actually, what Beenmum said IS how it works... in many states.  I don't know if you are in a state that doesn't work that way, or if for some reason the CPS worker and cops that responded to you decided not to insist on seeing your kids, but in most states - depending on the allegations - CPS DOES have a right to see your kids, and if you refuse, - again, depending on the allegations - they can come back with a cop and insist or take your kids.  That is true in most states.  Because, as Beenmum said, CPS's primary and *legal*responsibility is to protect children from abuse and neglect.  CPS is usually not gonna force their way in for a dirty house complaint... but for serious abuse complaints, yes, they can and they should.

And another thing Beenmum says that is also absolutely true for most of the 50 states: even where you can tell CPS to go away and make an appt or come back when you, the parent, want them to, there is absolutely immediately a raised concern about why you don't want CPS to see/talk to your kids if you refuse.  Even though CPS can't and shouldn't take any actual action against a parent (like removing kids) until there is substantiated (confirmed) abuse or neglect, depending on what the allegations are there is a raised concern where a parent refuses to produce the kids or speak to CPS or let the kids be spoken to.  What that raised concern means CPS does next... is a local issue.  But for the most part, if anyone ever called CPS on me (and I work for CPS!) I'd immediately let them in and let them see/speak to my kid, because I have nothing to hide.  And I honestly see that most parents who do that - *especially* where the report is a malicious one by someone just wanting to cause trouble for the family - the sooner the CPS worker can see there are no concerns, the fast the issue is closed and you are not bothered. 

Of course, if you've got something to hide, that's a different issue.  And if you've got a real, profound distrust of CPS, that is also an issue, and some people have good reason to have that distrust.  But what I am saying about how the refusal to talk or produce the kids is seen is true almost across the board, so even with a profound distrust, you still need to understand some of the consequences of not speaking to CPS or coorperating - even where you know 100% for sure that someone meaning to cause you harm made the report.

And for the record, the number of malicious reports CPS receives (in US and in Canada) is seriously miniscule compared to the number of reports where there are real issues.  Tiny.  Please keep that in mind too - CPS has a lot more important things to do than go out and investigate bogus reports, so the faster we can figure out it's bogus, the better for those who really need CPS interventions.

 

I did let them see my ds....I put a coat on him and brought him to the front stoop. I simpy did not let them in. My thought process was this: right now, all they know is what they were told. They have no proof. If I bring them into this house, who is to say they won't find 5 more things that they don't like? According to the laws, as long as they can see that the children are alive and not visibly hurt, they can't remove them. Now if I had refused to let them see my ds, they could have forced their way into the house to make sure he was alright. That is understandable.....they want to make sure the child is ok. There is no need to inspect my house. They also forced me to sign a document that put me at serious risk because there was no way for me to abide by it, and if they caught us breaking the terms of the agreement (that DP have no contact with either of the children, even by phone, or be in the same place as them, even at our religious meetings) then they could theoretically say "oh, you put your kids in danger" even though I knew that the accusation was 100% malicious and untrue. I had to tread very lightly and proceed with extreme caution while the case was open. So I'm not saying don't cooperate with CPS. My issue was that they sent a 20-something single chick with no kids, and a cop with a very nasty attitude, to my front door. What are either of them going to tell ME about raising my children, and who are they to decide whether it's being done right? A degree does not an expert make. I guess my point is, they can make an issue about "concerns" that re not legitimately an issue. Co sleeping, for example. It was one of the complaints that my mom raised (our sleeping setup for the kids at her house). We think her real reason is that she wanted ds sleeping alone ikn his room so that he would be easier to access. I know that is sick, but ufortunately a reall possibility. But for CPS it's a SIDS issue and a big deal. Not letting CPS in gave me time to decide whether I wanted to make the hoiuse how they wanted to see it (a crib and all that.) all I ended up doing was putting a bedrail on the bed, and cleaning up a bit. but I find that decisions made hastily are usually regretted later.

[limabean]

Originally Posted by Irishmommy 
They don't need a warrant to come in and speak with your kids...

How does that work though? If a CPS worker shows up on a doorstep and a parent refuses entry, the CPS worker is allowed to just barge their way in or what? I have no idea how CPS works, so my whole knowledge of allowing entry into my home is based on cop shows (heh), where a warrant is always required. How is the general public supposed to be aware that CPS workers have special privileges when it comes to home entry? And I have no idea what official CPS identification looks like, so if some stranger appears on my doorstep, even with an official-looking badge of some sort, they aren't coming inside my house. Wouldn't I be putting my kids at risk if I just let some stranger in my home? 

Anyway, CPS never ever crosses my mind except for when I read threads about it on MDC, so I'm not worried about this stuff for myself, but I do think it's too bad that CPS apparently has all these special rules that no one is aware of, but that parents will be dinged for not knowing. 

[Mrs. Bratton]

Originally Posted by waiting2bemommy 

I did let them see my ds....I put a coat on him and brought him to the front stoop. I simpy did not let them in. My thought process was this: right now, all they know is what they were told. They have no proof. If I bring them into this house, who is to say they won't find 5 more things that they don't like? According to the laws, as long as they can see that the children are alive and not visibly hurt, they can't remove them. Now if I had refused to let them see my ds, they could have forced their way into the house to make sure he was alright. That is understandable.....they want to make sure the child is ok. There is no need to inspect my house. They also forced me to sign a document that put me at serious risk because there was no way for me to abide by it, and if they caught us breaking the terms of the agreement (that DP have no contact with either of the children, even by phone, or be in the same place as them, even at our religious meetings) then they could theoretically say "oh, you put your kids in danger" even though I knew that the accusation was 100% malicious and untrue. I had to tread very lightly and proceed with extreme caution while the case was open. So I'm not saying don't cooperate with CPS. My issue was that they sent a 20-something single chick with no kids, and a cop with a very nasty attitude, to my front door. What are either of them going to tell ME about raising my children, and who are they to decide whether it's being done right? A degree does not an expert make. I guess my point is, they can make an issue about "concerns" that re not legitimately an issue. Co sleeping, for example. It was one of the complaints that my mom raised (our sleeping setup for the kids at her house). We think her real reason is that she wanted ds sleeping alone ikn his room so that he would be easier to access. I know that is sick, but ufortunately a reall possibility. But for CPS it's a SIDS issue and a big deal. Not letting CPS in gave me time to decide whether I wanted to make the hoiuse how they wanted to see it (a crib and all that.) all I ended up doing was putting a bedrail on the bed, and cleaning up a bit. but I find that decisions made hastily are usually regretted later.

Just because a social worker does not have children doesn't mean she is not an expert. They CAN still determine whether or not your house is a fit place for a child to live according to the law. I don't understand how a person would have to be a parent to make that call, especially when that is their job and what they are trained to do and, yes, a degree does kind of make you an expert, lol. I would argue that just having kids does not make one an expert.

[beenmum]

There IS no presumed innocent when it comes to the safety of a child that a person has been hired to protect.

This isnt court. These people are comming b/c someone said your kids are being maltreated or abused.

Would you tell a police officer to come back later if they had a call about someones safety? Would the cop leave if you asked them to please comeback later, after you have cleaned your house?

How about the fire brigade? Would you tell them to come back later?

Of course not.

Why in the world would you ask the people who have come on a call that your kids safety is at risk to come back later? Their job is to ensure the kids are safe, at that moment.

This is the US law

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized 

If they have probable cause to think that your child is in danger b/c of a reasonable suspicion given to them by a thrid party, they have the legal right to search and seize.

[beenmum]

If it is a serious allegation, they return later with a warrent to remove your kids b/c they were unable to complete their investigation that your children were safe and their home was secure of any dangers. (Not clean, but safe).

Why risk that? I am truely at a loss b/c I dont understand why someone would refuse the CPS the ability to ensure your children are safe. They dont want to remove your kids.

They want to ensure that your kids are not being harmed.

Parents abuse their kids. Parents murder their kids. I have seen it first hand.

Thats why CPS is there. The workers dont know you from Eve. If someone says that your bausing your kids, then they have to ensure your not. Its as simple as that.