So what does CPS look for? Can they inestigate over any concerned call from someone? I'm in Canada. - Page 4

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by LROM 

Re: the mom who had had 12 reports, again, unless the reporter can say "This is what mom is doing and this is how it's hurting her kids", even with 12 reports it's hard for CPS to legally respond.  As you said kathymuggle, it took mom doing something really erratic for police to come and then when she resisted arrest, that triggered everything.  In a way, as sucky as it is to have to live with a mentally ill mom, unless someone can explain how her mental issues are hurting her kids in a tangible way, it's very hard for CPS to intervene.  It comes up a lot with alcohol and pot - ok, it would be an ideal world if no one used either while parenting... but one is legal and the other is very very common even if illegal.  CPS has increasingly started examining not just what is the parent doing that seems like a bad idea, but what is the impact - if any - on the kids?  Some parents can drink and still parent fantastically... others alcohol makes them neglectful or abusive and their kids' needs are not met.  CPS should only get involved in the 2nd situation, even though both parents are using the same substance (alcohol).  So if there werent details about how the mom's mental illness was having a negative impact on her kids, what could CPS do?  Even if there was evidence mom was wacky, if the kids were fed, clothed, doing ok in school and seemed socially and emotionally ok, should CPS intervene further than assessing the situation (which is the only way to find out the kids are fed, clothed and emotionally ok)? 

These ones are so complicated. You and I have talked before, LROM, so you know I'm not the biggest fan of CPS, in many ways. This kind of scenario is part of the reason why - but I also realize that it must be incredibly frustrating to deal with, and very hard to know the best way to deal with it. I'm familiar with several cases of mental illness making for less than wonderful parenting, but overall situations that really aren't abusive, yk? If CPS gets a call on those people, then the "what should we do?" question is really complicated, and probably also very frustrating.

Magali: It's always a good idea to take a good look at the threads. I find that many of them say "CPS", but if you look inside, you'll find Canadian specific content. I just use "CPS" myself. Most posters here know what I'm talking about, and I can never remember what it's called here, anyway. I'm pretty sure the name has changed at least twice since my teens...the great Canadian (or at least British Columbian) game of "change the name, but leave the substance alone" gets played pretty hard here.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Magali 

I was looking forward to a discussion pertaining to Canadian laws.  Thanks to all the Canadian info because often here on MDC there are CPS threads, but I don't see CAS. 

I am Canadian (like the beer commercial, lol).  I often call CAS "CPS" so Americans will understand what I am talking about.  I figure most Canadians on this board know what CPS is, but I am not sure most Americans know what CAS is.

Interestingly, there are even regional differences in the CAS thing.  It is not called CAS in Quebec, but something like child youth protective services (not quite sure)

[Magali]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I am Canadian (like the beer commercial, lol).  I often call CAS "CPS" so Americans will understand what I am talking about.  I figure most Canadians on this board know what CPS is, but I am not sure most Americans know what CAS is.

Right, and honestly I never even knew what to call it here in Canada until this thread.  But what I was getting at is that while discussions about US CPS are interesting and raise topics on a general level, the law bits are irrelevant to me,  just like laws in Australia or the UK would be. 

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Interestingly, there are even regional differences in the CAS thing.  It is not called CAS in Quebec, but something like child youth protective services (not quite sure)

I just googled it out of curiousity when I read this. It looks as though what we have here is actually called Child Protection Services, so it really is CPS!  They operate under the umbrella of the Ministry of Children and Family Development. Most people I've known who have had any involvement with them simply say "The Ministry".
 

[cavcoed]

CPS does, in fact, need a warrant to enter your home. Even if there are police with them, they must have a valid warrant to enter your house. -Walsh vs. Erie County Department of Job and Family Services, Case No.3:01CV7588. This basically states that the Fourth Amendment aplies to social workers. There is NO social worker exception to the strictures of the Fourth Amendment. Hope this clears things up a little.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by cavcoed 

CPS does, in fact, need a warrant to enter your home. Even if there are police with them, they must have a valid warrant to enter your house. -Walsh vs. Erie County Department of Job and Family Services, Case No.3:01CV7588. This basically states that the Fourth Amendment aplies to social workers. There is NO social worker exception to the strictures of the Fourth Amendment. Hope this clears things up a little.

The OP is in Canada, and Canadians do not have the same rights that U.S. citizens do, as they do not have the same Constitution that we do.

[KimberlyD0]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

The OP is in Canada, and Canadians do not have the same rights that U.S. citizens do, as they do not have the same Constitution that we do.

You do know we have the charter of rights, right?? A lot of our basic rights are pretty much the same as the US, we even have a few extra (like the right to basic health care) Police do still need a warrant or reasonable suspicion to enter a home. CAS is not run through the police though.

I have had CAS called on me. My daughter has an extremely rare congenital defect that can make it appear as if her right leg is covered in bruises. We've had no less 8 calls about the same leg. Apparently people though we were beating her (but only the one leg you see ) They no longer come when they get a call because its been marked on the file.

CAS does everything they can to try keeping families together, and reuniting those who have been separated. They don't go in with the intention of taking kids away from their family.

Sure you can refuse them entry, that is your right, but its counter productive to you. Better to let them in and show you have nothing to hide. By refusing them entry it set off alarm bells for them.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by KimberlyD0 

You do know we have the charter of rights, right?? A lot of our basic rights are pretty much the same as the US, we even have a few extra (like the right to basic health care) Police do still need a warrant or reasonable suspicion to enter a home. CAS is not run through the police though.

She didn't say we don't have any rights. She said we don't have the same rights. That's the simple truth.

[KimberlyD0]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

The rights we have through our charter of rights is the same as those covered by your constitution. Thats all I was meaning. I don't believe Warrents are related to either.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by KimberlyD0 

The rights we have through our charter of rights is the same as those covered by your constitution. Thats all I was meaning. I don't believe Warrents are related to either.

The countries are similar in many ways - but not the same.  I would caution anyone to look up Canadian laws and not assume American ones apply - as they might not.

As stated earlier in this thread, different provinces may operate in different ways, look up yours.  

I see you are In Ontario.  A brief google search seemed to indicate CAs and police could enter your home without a warrant if they felt there was "just cause."  Here is a link to police info, look at pages 10-12

http://www.cleo.on.ca/english/pub/onpub/PDF/criminal/polpower.pdf

[Ashes04]

I'm in Indiana and I had a CPS worker show up at my door the other day because my brothers ex-girlfriend called and reported me saying all kinds of stuff. Of coarse it wasn't true but it still freaked me out having someone like that standing at my door. I let her right in and took her through to show her the kids room, and the kitchen and all because I didn't want her to think I had something to hide. I just felt like it would be better to just let her in and do her investigation so they'll get out of my life as soon as possible. Even though I didn't really wanna let her in my house was a mess. We had been gone out of town all weekend and hadn't got to clean up or anything but I figured she seen much much worse than my house. I just had toys everywhere. Now I have to wait 30days for them to finish their investigation and its nerve racking. Even though I know I have nothing to hide and I'm a wonderful mother you still just never know what could come of this!

[Mummoth]

Originally Posted by Ashes04 

I'm in Indiana and I had a CPS worker show up at my door the other day because my brothers ex-girlfriend called and reported me saying all kinds of stuff. Of coarse it wasn't true but it still freaked me out having someone like that standing at my door. I let her right in and took her through to show her the kids room, and the kitchen and all because I didn't want her to think I had something to hide. I just felt like it would be better to just let her in and do her investigation so they'll get out of my life as soon as possible. Even though I didn't really wanna let her in my house was a mess. We had been gone out of town all weekend and hadn't got to clean up or anything but I figured she seen much much worse than my house. I just had toys everywhere. Now I have to wait 30days for them to finish their investigation and its nerve racking. Even though I know I have nothing to hide and I'm a wonderful mother you still just never know what could come of this!

I think most of them can probably tell the difference between a vacation or someone is sick mess and a we-never-clean mess... at least the difference is apparent to me. Plus, I think who the call comes form makes a difference... they came and had a look around after I called the police on my ex, but they didn't even call when his parents reported on me (they bought the house back for ex, and that was the first time they saw holes in the wall, etc... of course their precious boy couldn't have done that) The only reason I knew about that call was because I called myself looking for support for DS, who was having behaviour issues.

[yellow73]

I haven't read all the posts, so bear with me with this has already been covered.  

I have worked for CPS in the US, in the state of Georgia.

Every state and county has slightly different ways of doing things....

But CPS workers do NOT have the right to enter a home unless they come with a police or sheriff who has cause to enter, or they have a signed order from a judge.

This will only happen in very serious circumstances.  

In the county I worked in, about 70% of calls with allegations were ever investigated (rest did not have real reason to respond to call), most of initial visits were quickly closed for lack of evidence.

Even if CPS brings a case to court, a judge or law enforcement are the ones who bring criminal charges.

It is the goal of CPS first to protect children, and second, to keep families together.  

I know that as CPS workers, we are given a bad rap, and many see us as the enemy.  In my experience, the county I worked in had a legal system that greatly favored the rights of parents over children.  This sometimes resulted in children staying in homes and being given back to unfit parents that later resulted in their coming to harm.

From my experience, it is much harder to prove to a judge that a child is in danger and keep them safe, than it is for parents to get a good lawyer and get their children back.  

If you are a good parent, and I believe most are, you have nothing to fear.

For those of us in normal families, I think it's hard to imagine sometimes what things look like when kids are being abused and neglected, and we'd prefer to think that it doesn't happen.  But it does, and those kids do need a system to protect them.  

[imnotsosure]

A judge will NOT grant a warrent by the end of the day, do not listen to that people. Not unless you have done something so terrible And there is physical evidence of such in which case they should be there and you should be held accountable. They WILL lie to you along with the police and tell you they will take your child, or that they are just here to help there is nothing to worry about, or that they are going to arrest you. Please do not listen to this. These are tactics, and the police go along right with them. ANYTHING that you say will be twisted taken out of context and used to begin the process to take you to family court and maybe criminal court. NOW... Being smart with them does not help either, as both the CPS worker and POLICE officer there to intimidate you at 7 or 8 am are trained specifically and they believe for some reason that being defensive means you are guilty of whatever accusation. They forget about the fact you are a parent, defending the life of your child. I am sorry to say if your in that position where they are on your front lawn, your being investigated. If you allow them into your home, they will take pictures, notes, and use anything less than perfect against your family. Its very hard, but its best to just be polite and bring your children outside for them to see record the conversation if you can with your cell phone anything. THEY are there to take your child away, its serious it wont go away. Tell them to please give you a card so that you can set up a time they can come back in the near future with your attorney there. They will squeal, lie, threaten you its their job. More cases = more funding. Once a child is taken into foster care they make the services so impossible, drag them out for years for you to not get your child back. Once they children are in custody they get FUNDING. When a child goes from foster care to ADOPTION, there is MORE funding. It is a BUSINESS. This is one of the most grossly hidden tragedys in our country. The media is not allowed to talk about it, if you google information on it there is nothing other than websites that warn you of it. It is creepy, and its is wrong. CPS makes it out to be that people who discuss this are radical, nutty, but this really happens and mostly in POOR communities where it is alot easier such as WALWORTH COUNTY, WI. I do not know anyone I met in that county in over 2 years who does not know of or someone from their family who had to deal with CPS and the police who go along with them. As my pastor told me in a counseling session, this has been going on a long long time here and its just getting worse. Its never ending. My family and I fought, we lost everything, but we are together and we got out. CPS is in no way there to help your family, or give you suggestions of where to get resources. It they were, they would give you a simple phone call, not be on your front lawn unannounced with a police officer. CPS in some counties across the country is completely out of control, they should be investigated and re structured so that attention to the children who really need their help is given. Too many families are being torn apart, lose their dignity, are finacially ruined over accusations from a bad divorce or a disgruntled family member or past friend/acquaintance. Its an American tragedy happening in living rooms on a daily basis. A child should only be taken away from his/her family for severe situations with clear cut physical evidence, not accusations. I can only tell you the emotional pain from a parent who basically lost their childs infancy due to fighting these people for years over false accusations. God bless the families who are just poor and learning as a family. God bless the children who really do need help also.

[SquidMommy]

Originally Posted by imnotsosure 

<snip> RANT WALWORTH COUNTY, WI.

You come across like someone with a serious axe to grind, perhaps while also looking for their space bar? Sarcasm aside - this is the exact kind of reactionary drabble that doesn't do either side any good. Villifying CPS doesn't help, (and of course there are CPS workers who abuse their power, just like there are crappy managers, teachers who pick on your kid, nurses who have lousy bedside manners, and waiters who spit in your food.) but neither does shrieking at us about the unpunctuated evils happening, apparently, all around you. You say we should help the kids who need it, but I don't see you advocating for an alternative, or even making a coherent point. Perhaps you could tell us what you think the states/provinces/whatever should do instead?

Before anyone says I don't have perspective - I work for the state I live in, in children's psychiatry. We see the kids who weren't reached by CPS in time. Abused, neglected, beaten, starved, burnt, sexually molested, exposed to drugs, exposed to alcohol, chained to various household items, left outside, locked in rooms, you name it. Imagine the worst of the worst, and then take it ten steps farther. CPS is a necessary evil in a world full of evils far worse than someone on your porch asking to see your kids. Yes, they DO receive all sorts of false complaints and allegations, and the good workers can sift through that. The bad workers, not so much - and I truly, truly feel for ANY family who has to deal with an overzealous CPS agent who is actively trying to upset their homelife. There isn't a happy medium to be had, unfortunately, and I can see it from both sides. I'd be horrified if a CPS worker came to my door. I can't honestly say I would know what to do, or if I would freeze in the moment.  I can tell you, though, that if I had truly done nothing wrong and the worker was able to agree with me and clear the allegation - I wouldn't fault the worker or the system for showing up at my door. That shows the system works, even if it's inconvenient at times. Until there's a better alternative, this is what we have. And this isn't even close to foolproof.

[Super~Single~Mama]

CPS is not a business. How much do they get in grants for each child that is adopted? I can pretty well guarantee you that they spend far more that whatever number that is to successfully get a TPR granted.

It costs a lot of money, and takes a lot of time to get a TPR. Not to mention experts, they have to pay the foster parent stipend, pay all medical care for the child (obviously these come out of different funds in some cases, but medicaid is not free, even if the beneficiary isn't paying), therapies, supervisors for supervised visits, attorneys for the parents, the state, and the child. Not to mention the judge, social workers (who are over worked and underpaid), all the others in the state agency who are involved in the case, etc.

All of that is extremely costly for the state. Extremely.

[queenjane]

I've probably already posted in this thread but im too lazy to scroll up and see.

All i can say is that i have three adopted children. The one who spent the MOST time in her mother's care, who got sent back TWICE from foster care is the child of mine who has the most emotional issues. None of the three came into care for no reason, the reasons were clearly documented.

Yes, states get "bonuses" here is more info about that : http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/congress/overview.htm#Incentive In my state, agencies get the MOST money for placing a child who is listed on the state photolisting and who is with a different agency...thus encouraging the placement of children who have been waiting the longest. Obviously, there may be certain agencies and counties who have some secret agenda to steal children away from healthy families so they can adopt them out and get bonuses....but as a broad, country-wide agenda? Frankly, there is so much disorganization and dropping-of-the-ball and passing-the-buck and total lack of communication between different "arms" of the child welfare system that i can't see them working together for some covert operation like that. In my state CPS is totally separate from the private agencies who place children. Then of course there is the prosecutor who decides whether to pursue TPR, and then the judge who decides. Its one big conspiracy? if so, then why was my daughter sent back to her bmom when she was a tiny six month old baby, rather than being easily adopted out? Why sent back as a cute little five year old? Why did they wait until she was 8 yrs old with significant emotional problems to FINALLY tpr and then adopt out? It doesnt make logical sense.

[Super~Single~Mama]

From queenjane's link:

Michigan, for instance, is using a performance-based incentive system designed to encourage and reward the timely adoption of children from the foster care system. The State of Michigan makes extensive use of private agencies for adoption placement services. Under the State's adoption incentive, private agencies are rewarded for placing children more quickly, receiving an enhanced rate of $5,600 for placing a child within eight months. If an agency takes longer than 8 months to place a child in an adoptive home, it receives the standard rate of $3,500. Furthermore, private agencies are paid a premium rate of $8,600 for placing a child who is not in the care of that private agency, but who is included in the State's photolisting book of children who are hard to place.

These incentives are probably helpful to agencies, but are hardly worth the trouble (and cost, since this does NOT reimburse the agency or state for the cost of seeking TPR!) of removing children from healthy families solely to get them.

[queenjane]

Exactly. The "standard rate" an agency gets is $3,500, and that is supposed to cover the homestudy, training, home visits, etc etc. They get a little bit more for putting extra effort in placing kids who wait longer (we have kids on the MI photolisting who have been waiting years and years!) And the highest rate (placing a child who is with another agency) encourages agencies to allow their families to adopt kids who arent with their own agency, otherwise many workes might feel its too much trouble or feel too "possessive" of their families/kids and want to keep it all in-house.

Frankly i bet there is more of a "profit" to be had in keeping kids in foster care, because once that adoption is finalized the agency might get a bonus but then they receive no more money from that case. Sadly though, there is no shortage of kids coming into care so that isnt too much of a worry for the agencies.

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by Vikki Bowser 

your full of shit my mom went through it. don't miss lead people to think cps are nice good  people i grew up in a nice clean house and went to school faithfully and cps was still knocking at our door, all because my mom wasn't a "traditional" home maker and you don't have to let them in your home without warranted cause i had healthy families of America tell me that one. where I'm from cps work with healthy families. 

Calm down. Your experience is different than MY experience. That doesnt make ANYONE "full of shit"...i've been contacted by CPS twice with my oldest son when he was little based on allegations people made, and also during my stint as a foster parent. All three times turned out fine in the end, but believe me, i know that all it takes is one crazy sw to ruin your life. Those things happen...they SHOULDNT but they do. But that doesnt mean that CPS wants to steal your children *so that they can adopt them out for supposed big bucks from the govt*...i have my experience, you have your experience and that may color how we view CPS (my adopted children's lives were probably saved by CPS intervention) but can't we keep the discussion respectful?