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Trust birth? - Page 3

post #41 of 122

leah, 

 

personally, i'm not getting your POV. 

 

in my opinion, a specialist is great to have on hand, but really overkill for most families. the majority of human beings, throughout history, have had more successful live births than not, or humans would not have survived. 

 

if a person feels that she or her child is at risk, then she should birth in a place where she feels those risks are reduced. That could be a hospital or a UC. in the case of requiring specialists, if a woman feels her child may be at risk for certain disorders, it would be wise for hre to choose to birth where those needs could be taken care of or met should they arise. 

 

In addition, even specialists miss tell tale signs, and parents will "feel" or sense something is wrong and act and act until they get someone to figure out the problem. It took 6 years for my friend to get an appropriate diagnosis and treatment for her son -- and not because the doctor was giving into her. Once they started treatment, every aspect of his life improved (happened to be a rare sensory disorder). 

 

just my thoughts on it, anyway.

post #42 of 122



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoebird View Post

leah, 

 

personally, i'm not getting your POV. 

 

in my opinion, a specialist is great to have on hand, but really overkill for most families. the majority of human beings, throughout history, have had more successful live births than not, or humans would not have survived. 

 

 

Zoebird: so to clarify this statement...a specialist on hand is overkill just because a minimum 51% of babies survived birth in the past?

 

Those are certainly not odds I would choose to participate in.

post #43 of 122

Hey guys. Guess what? This is the unassisted birth forum. Believe it or not, that's what we believe in here! And, you're not going to be able to convince us otherwise (nor should you try).

 

Anyone coming here for support and information or cordial discussion, welcome!

post #44 of 122

Leahsmom --

 

After spending time here trying to understand the perspective of the UC-ers, I have just decided that the whole "intutition" thing (which I personally feel is largely BS) is like religious faith.  Either you are a believer or you are not.  If you have faith that the world is 6,000 years old, it doesn't matter what other evidence may be provided to you that it is millions of years older.  That's how I see intitution/UC playing out.

 

In other words -- there is nothing to really *understand* here, beyond belief.  Others may feel that these individuals are trying to catch the Hale-Bopp comet, but their belief is otherwise and that's where the reach for understanding ends.

post #45 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane93 View Post

Leahsmom --

 

After spending time here trying to understand the perspective of the UC-ers, I have just decided that the whole "intutition" thing (which I personally feel is largely BS) is like religious faith.  Either you are a believer or you are not.  If you have faith that the world is 6,000 years old, it doesn't matter what other evidence may be provided to you that it is millions of years older.  That's how I see intitution/UC playing out.

 

In other words -- there is nothing to really *understand* here, beyond belief.  Others may feel that these individuals are trying to catch the Hale-Bopp comet, but their belief is otherwise and that's where the reach for understanding ends.


I know you know that's extraordinarily insulting, but I'm not sure you comprehend why. I'll tell you-- it's because you are talking down about people whom you really fail to understand.

 

I'm a logical person, and I can be reasoned with. Reasoning is how I came out of the conditioned belief that "birth needs medical management" to the realization that it was something I could actually do by myself. Just as some people can be indoctrinated into a religion, others can be indoctrinated into false notions of "logic". The bottom line with both religion and logic is: just because you are taught something which is commonly accepted does not make it true.

 

I'm not a religious person, and I do not believe the world is 6,000 years old. I believe in science. I like evidence. I'm practical. Intuition is not hard to believe in, it's just intangible. Science is not against the intangible, it is just more abstract, and thus harder to prove, and harder for some folks to grasp. thumb.gif Most of us-- even the most logical-minded-- have witnessed intuition firsthand (although sometimes we don't call it "intuition"... sometimes it's "common sense", or "ESP", or "instinct", depending on your personality) and wouldn't just write it off as total mumbo-jumbo. That's dismissive and short sighted, to say the least (which is not very logical, scientific, or knowledgeable). That just sounds like limited life experience or denial of everyday occurrences. I think in intelligent people it comes from a deep-seated fear of their own intuition (or seeming lack thereof), that they are so uncomfortable and insecure in their own abilities that they feel much better calling the whole thing BS. But don't worry-- I'm not accusing you of being one of those. eyesroll.gif

 

So, it doesn't matter how much evidence we have (even personal experience!) that UC is safe, birth is normal, and intuition exists. Indoctrination is indoctrination, be it pseudo-intellectualism or religion. Everything we've said and continue to say has fallen on deaf ears... yet you keep coming back for more! We are all too happy to oblige, even if it is getting a bit old. So, stop patting yourself on the back for being so much more intelligent than us, and the nice ladies here will be all too willing to keep sharing, hoping maybe one day you actually listen with an open mind.

 

post #46 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane93 View Post

 

After spending time here trying to understand the perspective of the UC-ers, I have just decided that the whole "intutition" thing (which I personally feel is largely BS) is like religious faith. 


 

Really? I think we all use intuition in every sphere of life on a daily basis. Some examples are assessing whether someone is a suitable business partner, whether they guy who made a creepy comment and is now following you around is scary enough to get away from immediately, whether your partner is truly doing over hours or is cheating, etc, etc. Intuition can be very valuable. Ignoring it can be lethal, especially in the case of that creepy person following you around. Professionals like entrepreneurs and detectives use intuition all the time, and it makes someone much more powerful professionally.

 

Just why shouldn't this apply to pregnancy and birth too? Many women "know" they are pregnant before they have obvious symptoms or a positive test. Is that BS, or fact? I don't think anyone is saying that intuition should be one's only tool, but it is certainly useful.

post #47 of 122

Mittenskittens --

 

That's not "intuition" per se.  For example, I feel dizzy and so go to get checked out by the doctor and find out something's wrong.  That's not "intuition" that made me get checked out -- it was the observation of unusual phenomena.  I believe that can happen at an almost subconscious level -- such as when you observe someone's facial expressions/demeanor and make a determination of their trustworthiness.  That may appear to be a "gut" feeling, but is based on reading the subtle cues that people give off as well as hearing their stated intentions.

 

However, the idea that you can have intuition for matters that have (or may have) no signal -- whether the baby's cord is wrapped around its neck, whether the baby is too large to pass through the pelvic outlet, whether the baby may have S-D, vasa previa, eclampsia, etc. -- that is either intuition as the equivalent of religious belief or a belief in ESP.

post #48 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane93 View Post

Mittenskittens --

 

That's not "intuition" per se.  For example, I feel dizzy and so go to get checked out by the doctor and find out something's wrong.  That's not "intuition" that made me get checked out -- it was the observation of unusual phenomena.  I believe that can happen at an almost subconscious level -- such as when you observe someone's facial expressions/demeanor and make a determination of their trustworthiness.  That may appear to be a "gut" feeling, but is based on reading the subtle cues that people give off as well as hearing their stated intentions.

 

However, the idea that you can have intuition for matters that have (or may have) no signal -- whether the baby's cord is wrapped around its neck, whether the baby is too large to pass through the pelvic outlet, whether the baby may have S-D, vasa previa, eclampsia, etc. -- that is either intuition as the equivalent of religious belief or a belief in ESP.




Well, according to my admittedly crappy dictionary (free with the computer, LOL) the definition of intuition is "the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning". In my understanding, it does often use actual physical phenomena. I would not call being dizzy and going to the doctor as using your intuition, because you are responding to symptoms that you know to be worrisome. But intuition does not mean the absence of logical reasoning, rather a really, really quick calculation based on the sum of previous experiences, right? Logical reasoning might take place, but your brain went so fast you are not immediately aware of how it reached the given conclusion.

 

I loved reading the book "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin De Becker. It's about keeping kids (and yourself) safe by using your intuition. There is really nothing new in the book, but it does highlight that many people actually have great intuitive skills. How many times do you meet someone who makes you feel uncomfortable? Lots of times! But only sometimes do you actually get the signal that they are truly dangerous, and as the stories in that book show, those are very often correct. So yes, there might well be physical indications that something is wrong, yet something in your mind screams "Get Away!". This is not a rational conclusion, which could also be made but you might require more time to get there. It's intuition. Not "woo"; just a handy tool we all have.

 

The questions about being able to recognize problems that are going on with your baby in your uterus are interesting. I don't know if this is actually possible. There are no sub-conscious clues as with the safety examples. Sometimes, there are physical symptoms. It is true that sometimes mothers have "felt" something was wrong with their baby and found out this was indeed true after requesting further testing. You read about that in the news sometimes. Whether the opposite, where a mother "feels" everything will be fine also proves to be correct, I am not sure. It would be a fascinating topic for a study, for sure, regardless of the outcome.

 

As for UC, which I would guess you are not too fond of, I had one. I did it because I concluded it would be the safest choice for me and my baby in my given circumstances (outright dangerous hospital in a developing country, one available homebirth midwife who claimed that "nothing could possibly go wrong at your birth"). Rather than relying purely on my intuition, I spent months researching the physiology of birth, signals of complications, and possible treatments. I also researched what actually, truly goes on in hospitals where we live, by reading guidelines, speaking to doctors and mothers who gave birth there.

 

After all that, I concluded that birth can be pretty dangerous. But also that giving birth in a hospital would give me a 100 percent chance of experiencing a complication, due to the way they practice. Actually, if they didn't like the look of me or I did not feel bribing a doctor to receive care was a principled idea, they could just refuse me entrance, and leave me to give birth in the street! I was fully aware that something fatal can happen sometimes, and I concluded that this was far, far less likely to happen at home. As for the one midwife, I did not feel that her total lack of experience and knowledge would help me any, and would probably be dangerous.

 

In other words, intuition played no role in my decision-making process - it was all rational thought, with conclusions not made immediately but over many months. And I'd do the same thing again. This probably tells you two things. 1. Not all UC-ers are the same, just like all people who drive green cars are not the same. 2. Even if a decision is made based on rational thought, it is still good that intuition is present. You never know when it will come in handy.

 

ETA - That is not to say that I don't think people have a right to make decisions solely based on their intuition or perceived intuition, or even that I don't personally think those decisions are perfectly valid. Right to choice is a very important thing, and especially when it comes to something as individual and important as birth. I don't want anyone to tell me what is right and what isn't, and I sure don't want to do the same to anyone else.

post #49 of 122

I don't know how you can explain how some people just know things. How do YOU explain this, Jane? Do you simply not believe in it, across the board? Oh, it must not exist, since Jane hasn't seen it with her own eyes. Certainly all that was or is, you've been able to witness and verify, firsthand! Well maybe you haven't "seen" intuition, but I've experienced it in startling detail many times in my life, and it doesn't require your belief to be real. Since I can't hand my brain to you and show you through my eyes, it'll simply be your loss. Given that you probably can't take MY word for it, surely there are people you trust or do believe in in your life who have had these experiences as well. Or maybe they're too turned off by your dismissive attitude to confide as such in you. Again, your loss.

post #50 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane93 View Post

However, the idea that you can have intuition for matters that have (or may have) no signal -- whether the baby's cord is wrapped around its neck, whether the baby is too large to pass through the pelvic outlet, whether the baby may have S-D, vasa previa, eclampsia, etc. -- that is either intuition as the equivalent of religious belief or a belief in ESP.



I was confused by what you said here, can you clarify?  Are you saying that a person who is UCing would claim to know ahead of time (before labor?) that these things would occur? Is that what you are thinking of when you hear intuition?  Because yes, in my opinion, that would mean you'd have to be psychic.

 

Having and following natural instincts about what to do in the above situations is what I personally mean by intuition. Of course cord around the neck is very rarely a problem, and it should almost always be left alone and baby will be born without intervention.  Many a time I have heard of a mother who realized her baby had shoulder dystocia, and instinctually switched positions until the baby was able to rotate through. Not that I think one should rely entirely on instinct; I read and research so much about pregnancy and birth because I want to be intellectually prepared as well.

 

post #51 of 122

Kristi-- thy don't believe in your natural instinct, period. They're here because they think we should just be in the hands of a doctor, because a doctor knows better.

post #52 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lula's Mom View Post





I was confused by what you said here, can you clarify?  Are you saying that a person who is UCing would claim to know ahead of time (before labor?) that these things would occur? Is that what you are thinking of when you hear intuition?  Because yes, in my opinion, that would mean you'd have to be psychic.

 

Having and following natural instincts about what to do in the above situations is what I personally mean by intuition. Of course cord around the neck is very rarely a problem, and it should almost always be left alone and baby will be born without intervention.  Many a time I have heard of a mother who realized her baby had shoulder dystocia, and instinctually switched positions until the baby was able to rotate through. Not that I think one should rely entirely on instinct; I read and research so much about pregnancy and birth because I want to be intellectually prepared as well.

 


yeahthat.gif

 

Or, at least, that's what I always thought was MEANT by intuition and UC....natural instinct and then following up with educated preparedness. 

 

post #53 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElizabethE View Post

Kristi-- thy don't believe in your natural instinct, period. They're here because they think we should just be in the hands of a doctor, because a doctor knows better.



Does a doctor have intuition? smile.gif

post #54 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by MittensKittens View Post

Does a doctor have intuition? smile.gif


Well hopefully, if they do, they don't pay any attention to it! It's not even quantifiable for goodness' sake!

 

 

orngtongue.gif

 

post #55 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusarctos View Post




Well hopefully, if they do, they don't pay any attention to it! It's not even quantifiable for goodness' sake!

 

 

orngtongue.gif

 




ROTFLMAO.gif

post #56 of 122

Anyone care to share real-life examples of how your intuition served you well, either during pregnancy and birth or just in general? Examples of your intuition failing you, or you not listening to your intuition, are also great. It probably won't do anything to convince nay-sayers that intuition exists, but it could be pretty inspiring.

 

Mine:

 

As a teen, I once had a strong, strong feeling that my mother was going through stuff in my room right then, and I was terrified. When I got home from school, she had been reading my diary and was furious.

 

I felt that something fatal had happened to a friend, and it unfortunately turned out to be true. He killed himself

 

During both pregnancies, I "knew" was sex my baby was.

 

Your experiences?

post #57 of 122

OP I have noticed exactly what you describe as well. I would say that what you are seeing is not a lack of UCers trusting themselves to birth, but rather most people here realizing that if they even hint at the notion they will be accused of being full of BS by the anti-UCers (who I still can't figure why are even on a UC forum- except to spread hate). This thread, case and point. So everyone seems to be toning things down to the bare minimum of feelings when they reply to topics, and focusing on facts to avoid pointless debates.

 

I am absolutely shocked that anyone actually does not think people can have intuition/instinct/bad feelings/ etc....???? It puzzles me. I have never met someone who was so completely shut off that they didn't 'believe' in intuition. I have had countless disscussions with the most mainstream people you will ever meet about these kinds of things. I have not met anyone in my lifetime who does not believe it is possible to just 'know' something. MittensKittens you mentioned the sex of the babies, how often do people ask a pregnant woman who doesn't know the sex of their baby "Do you have a feeling its a girl?" Or even say "I have a feeling you're having...." You know that 'a feeling' part is talking about instinct/intuition right? These are mainstream people saying these things- which I only point out for the anti-UC people to say they are not these crazy irresponsible hippy types *rolls eyes*. 

 

For example, I was in a park once with my kids, there was this dodgy guy hanging around who seemed to be pretending to look like he was a jogger (?) there was a security guard who was staying in the area even though I do not live in a place that would normally would have any security especially at parks. He seemed to be making it look as if he had stuff to do there at the park. I got a 'bad feeling', call it what you will but to me it seemed like the guard was hanging around to watch this guy. Maybe they had had some kind of incident at this park previously. Maybe it was nothing and I was being overly suspicious LOL. But either way, my instinct was telling me to get the hell out of there with my kids. And when the guard saw me leave he left also. Instinct has nothing to do with being psychic, nor does it even require any kind of faith or belief. For me a set of circumstances and feelings from past experiences can alert you to trouble. Why is it not possible that something wrong with the baby (stuck for example) could not be felt by the mother physically during labour? Intuition can come from facts, feelings (both physical and emotional) and experiences. Why wouldn't her instinct be able to tell her that something was wrong? That something about her labour felt different to her last two (past experience), that something was hurting in a way that didn't feel right (physical), that things were taking longer than they should for that stage of labour (fact), that she just knew that there was a problem (emotional). I guess I see intuition as a set of circumstances that alerts you to feel a certain way and no harm ever comes from being safe rather than sorry. If the mothers intuition is wrong and she transfers for nothing, the worst that could happen is she ends up with a hospital birth....Come to think of it, maybe intuition is dangerous after all.... lol.gif

 

This could have been such a beautiful thread and I was really looking forward to hearing more about how the more experienced UCers felt about trusting birth and the whole process and how they felt about the role of the mother's instinct in birth. As I have had similar questions to the OP. But now its been railroaded again by the haters. I just find it sad that some people honestly have nothing better to do than hang out on forums which discuss things they don't agree with so they can criticize and start arguments....

post #58 of 122

I think just about everyone believes in some level of natural instinct/intuition...EXCEPT (seemingly) when it comes to taking charge of your own birth. I mean, most of parenting...particularly the infant years is nearly ALL instinct/intuition. 

post #59 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonapple View Post

I think just about everyone believes in some level of natural instinct/intuition...EXCEPT (seemingly) when it comes to taking charge of your own birth. I mean, most of parenting...particularly the infant years is nearly ALL instinct/intuition. 



Great point, this is absolutely true.

post #60 of 122

LOL-- you ladies are cracking me up.

 

On the topic, though, of real life intuition-- I have examples spanning my whole life. BUT, I was inspired as a child to listen to my intuition and I come from a family that gives credence to things like dreams, and clairvoyance, etc. I think this kind of positive attention will nurture our natural abilities, so in that sense I was lucky. Even if you don't believe in those things, intuition is so base I feel like disregarding it is just plain ignorant to life and your surroundings. It could be as simple as knowing you are being watched or followed and then discovering it's true. I mean, we've all experience simple moments like that, haven't we? Call it animal survival instinct, even, if you like! And why couldn't we expect similar to occur in our labors? If nothing else, it's a built-in defense mechanism.

 

It has to be admitted that not everything is understood about how life and the universe works from a completely exacting and proven standpoint, and that there are still millions more discoveries to be made, and perhaps some things that cannot even be yet proven (with our current capabilities). I think for us to rely solely on "logic" (in this case, ignorance disguised as logic) while discrediting all else as even a remote possibility is just plain arrogant. As if we know everything there is to know! As if some people cannot know things unless we know them with the same certainty! I will not shut that door, and it's up to others if they would like to or not.

 

I encourage you all to listen to your own inner knowledge. A lot of hard work went into telling us not to believe in this stuff, and I mean to undo that where possible. :)

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