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If Not Vaccines, Then WHAT Causes Autism? - Page 3  

post #41 of 325


Quote:

Originally Posted by Marnica View Post



 



 You know Joan of Arc as a Saint - wrongfully accused of heresy. At the time, when she was accused and burned at the stake - she was GULITY GUILTY GUILTY by all who condemned her. That's kind of my point.

 

But Wakefield or the MMR vaccine could be the Saint or the Heretic in this story, and you don't actually know which.  You have an opinion.  
 

 

post #42 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarthRootsStarSoul View Post

Autism is hella genetic.  My mom, brother, and one sister are autistic.  Me, my dad, and other sister have AS.  I suspect my mom's mom is autistic.  I suspect my three year old son has AS (never vaccinated).  Not a single one of us is diagnosed.  The seeming rise in autism is better screening and diagnosis. 


This is my very strong suspicion, as well. My first cousin and I have both have sons very close in age, but living hours apart, and both have remarkably similar issues with ASD and SPD. In addition, I very much suspect one family member has Asperger's (but I never would have had I not started doing a lot of reading about it). She's never been diagnosed because I doubt anyone has ever said to her, "Gosh, you're incredibly socially awkward and come across as very rude sometimes. D'ya think you're autistic, maybe?" -- and if they did, I can't imagine she would believe it, anyway.

 

I know a LOT of people who have several family members on the spectrum to varying degrees. And my son's OT tells me that she's seen numerous instances of children she works with where the parents are clearly on the spectrum, as well, but have no idea they are.

 

post #43 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post


Quote:

 

But Wakefield or the MMR vaccine could be the Saint or the Heretic in this story, and you don't actually know which.  You have an opinion.  
 

 

 As I said time will tell. Obviously I have an opinion - that's what each of us here have. My point is is that sometimes facts come to light later on that exonerate falsely accused individuals. Some folks here do not seem to entertain that as even a possibility.  It's happened thoroughout history and will continue to happen until the end of time. Unless anyone here is a psychic, than nobody here can say what will come of this situation with vaccines and autism. There of course will be lots of speculation and OPINIONS as the controvery rages on.

 

 

post #44 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post



 As I said time will tell. Obviously I have an opinion - that's what each of us here have. My point is is that sometimes facts come to light later on that exonerate falsely accused individuals. Some folks here do not seem to entertain that as even a possibility.  It's happened thoroughout history and will continue to happen until the end of time. Unless anyone here is a psychic, than nobody here can say what will come of this situation with vaccines and autism. There of course will be lots of speculation and OPINIONS as the controvery rages on.

 

 




Except that was exactly what happened with Wakefield. He was hailed as the person who found out what caused autism. And then later it was discovered he falsified documents, accepted money as a conflict of interest, performed unnecessary, painful tests on kids, etc., etc. He's Bizzaro World Joan of Arc.

post #45 of 325

 

I am an adult with Asperger’s. I’m 26. I was diagnosed a few years ago, while in college.

There are some aspects of Asperger’s that are a gift. High IQ—great. Exceptional memory—great. A different way of looking at the world—great.

There are also problems. I have muscle issues that make it painful to hold a pencil, I’m hypersensitive to light, sound, and touch, and have problems with my immune system and digestion. I believe all of those are the result of damage, and I’m still searching for a way to make repairs. I’m comfortable calling all of them disabilities, because they are.

·  BeckyBird, thank you for starting this discussion. Your original question needs to be asked, and I would like to get this thread back on topic.

From my own experience, I have two thoughts.

  1. What about a misaligned skull, putting pressure on the brain? My parents started taking me to an osteopath when I was 16, and all of the above problems expect the muscle issues had dramatic improvement.
  2. How about Vitamin D deficiency? Vitamin D is necessary to brain development, and many pregnant mothers are deficient. Are their babies born with damaged brains?

 

Vitamin D is also necessary to the immune system. If it is low at the time of vaccination, will the vaccine further deplete the supply to the point of damaging both the brain and the immune system?

Vitamin D deficiency has become far more common over the past few decades, since doctors started recommending constant sunscreen use. I personally feel much better when I take high doses of Vitamin D and get some sun exposure.

 

post #46 of 325

grr.. ok if it's genetic that still makes it the mom's fault. She should have gotten tested and any mates she had gotten with.. so still her fault. And as of right now Fragile x is only like a rare 3% causes autism.

post #47 of 325



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisalou View Post






Except that was exactly what happened with Wakefield. He was hailed as the person who found out what caused autism. And then later it was discovered he falsified documents, accepted money as a conflict of interest, performed unnecessary, painful tests on kids, etc., etc. He's Bizzaro World Joan of Arc.



Not my intention to derail the thread - the Wakefield debate has been done multiple times on MDC and Im not interested in doing it again. I am not in the camp who has villified the above. I have looked beyond what has been presented in the mainstream media. Every single accusation that has been thrown at him he has a rational and believeable and verifiable explanation for. It is all detailed in his book. This is my conclusion my after following the GMC trial closely and looking at both sides. I had no prior knowledge of the man before this all blew up. Id had never heard of him so I didn't really care how it turned out since his research had absolutely nothing to do with my I choose to keep my child vax free....and as I said time will tell.

post #48 of 325

ok but tested for what?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by babygirlie View Post

grr.. ok if it's genetic that still makes it the mom's fault. She should have gotten tested and any mates she had gotten with.. so still her fault. And as of right now Fragile x is only like a rare 3% causes autism.



 

post #49 of 325


Thank you. :) I got your point ;) I don't pretend to know why or how and think any info is valuable even it's anectodotal

 

I actually haven't read the rest of the thread and had a knee jerk reaction after reading just a few so time to step away lol

 

For the record I was 33, dh was 30 when we had baby so I guess we were older parents. My eggs could have been on the stale side. Who knows!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

Babygirlie, thank you for sharing your story with us. You understood that my question was not about blame, but about hope. About finding answers. Your oxygen theory is very interesting, and it makes a lot of sense. If the brain is deprived of oxygen, could autism be a result?

 

And, great job helping your sweet little girl. I can't imagine how hard it must have been in the beginning. You sound like a wonderful mom!



 

post #50 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedLeaf View Post

I know Joan of Arc. Dr. Wakefield is no Joan of Arc.


lol.gif

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

 You know Joan of Arc as a Saint - wrongfully accused of heresy. At the time, when she was accused and burned at the stake - she was GULITY GUILTY GUILTY by all who condemned her. That's kind of my point.



It was a joke referencing a long ago vice-presidential debate . . ..

post #51 of 325

I don't see why it can't be genetic AND caused by environmental factors (whether in the womb or out). So lets say there's an "autism gene" and its passed through families. Can't someone be "prone" to it, without having it? Maybe the autism gene + (insert environmental factor of choice here) = autism? There are lots of things that the tendency toward them is passed genetically that need to be "triggered". Maybe members of a family are particularly prone to addictive behaviors. That doesn't mean that out pops an alcoholic from birth. If the individual who is potentially prone to alcoholism chooses to abstain from alcohol, or be very, very careful with setting personal limits and sticking to them, well.. then they AREN'T an alcoholic. Breast cancer has a strong genetic link. Doesn't mean there aren't things that can increase the risk, or other things that can reduce the risk. 

post #52 of 325

LiLStar, I'm with you. I think autism is caused by having that genetic component triggered by something environmental.

post #53 of 325



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by witchygrrl View Post

LiLStar, I'm with you. I think autism is caused by having that genetic component triggered by something environmental.



This.

Thank you for starting this post OP. Sorry some are attacking you for it. If we are ever to truly uncover the cause(s) of autism we will need to move beyond blame and shame and start asking the hard questions. Do I think vaccines cause autism? Yes, I think they are one of several causes. There is too much anecdotal evidence to the contrary. And anyone who says that without a doubt vaccines do not cause autism hasn't done their research because those large, well-controlled studies looking at vaccinated vs. unvaccinated populations have not been done yet. So, what are we parents supposed to do it the meantime? Vaccines are a consumer product and nothing more, and the responsibility is on us to do our own research until the CDC, FDA, and AAP get their act together.

 

post #54 of 325

I think it is pretty clearly genetics.  That, and genetics.

 

I know too many kids that are unvaccinated, with unvaccinated moms, who didn't have ultrasounds, had no or few birth interventions, including home births, who are very NFL, who breastfeed, who do all the things you are "supposed" to do, and yet their children have autism.  My own son fits a number of these, although I did not have a homebirth.  (I delayed vaccines until well after his dx, breastfed, cloth diapered, used only non-toxic natural stuff, fed him organic food at the appropriate time...etc, etc.)  

 

On top of that, he has a family full of computer nerds, engineers/engineering types, accountants, musicians, and all the other stereotypical "nerdy" type traits.  He got it from both sides of the family, and is basically a much more intense version of my husband.  The same is true for all of the unvaxed Autistic kids I know.  Often at least on parent would have had either a PDD-NOS dx or Aspergers dx as children, if they were children today.  In most of the families one or both parents display sensory issues throughout the family, and it is often pretty strong in at least one parent.  

 

Often the siblings show shadow traits, even if they are not on the spectrum themselves.  (Our daughter, who is clearly not autistic, is language/speech delayed, and has been in ST since she was 3-4ish yo)

 

I think the desire for a "cause" is because we put such a negative stigma on Autism.  We think that if we can make a list, then it can be somebody's "fault" and "it can't happen to me because I did everything right".  I think it is designed to make us feel justified in discriminating against people with different brains.

post #55 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverMoon010 

I don't think a mom would be considered "worried" when she chooses to avoid substances that are injected into her child that have the ability to cause harm


 

Side effects, possibly.  Autism, no.  That's been completely and thoroughly discredited.

 

 

 

 

Quote:
if it involves my child, I want ALL the research in the world done about how safe it is and I don't want them to STOP researching.

Why should research dollars and time be wasted re-establishing what is already well-known?  That doesn't make any sense.  You don't need NEW research; you need to carefully read the research that has already been done.

post #56 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post
I have news for you--anybody and everybody is entitled to an opinion. 

Dude.  You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.  You said you thought vaccines "contribute" to autism, and they don't.  So no, you're not really entitled to think that, b/c it's totally inaccurate.

post #57 of 325

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakyPie View Post

Why should research dollars and time be wasted re-establishing what is already well-known?  That doesn't make any sense.  You don't need NEW research; you need to carefully read the research that has already been done.


 

Have they ever done research of the cumulative effects of all vaccine ingredients? No, yet they keep adding more and more. 

 

Have they researched the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated populations? No. I have yet to see this study.

 

So, to be frank, the research has NOT been done. That's great if the research done satisfies you and you are happy with it. I am not, however.  There are too many questions left unanswered.

post #58 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post



 



 You know Joan of Arc as a Saint - wrongfully accused of heresy. At the time, when she was accused and burned at the stake - she was GULITY GUILTY GUILTY by all who condemned her. That's kind of my point.


Riiiiight.  Because having religious visions is totally the same as breaches of medical ethics, financial conflict of interest, and falsifying data.  All of which Andy Wakefield did.

 

And being burned at the stake is also totally the same as a doctor being censured for the above breaches.

 

post #59 of 325

But autism is present in unvaccinated kids.  There aren't tons of unvaxed kid out there, but I have met a number of unvaxed Autistic kids through this very board.  I have always found it ironic that on one forum on this board are kids with autism, and other boards saying that if you don't vax and follow NFL practices that you can't have an autistic kid.  MDC offers more examples of "doing all the right things" and still having autism than any mainstream board I have been to.

post #60 of 325

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer Z View Post

But autism is present in unvaccinated kids.  There aren't tons of unvaxed kid out there, but I have met a number of unvaxed Autistic kids through this very board.  I have always found it ironic that on one forum on this board are kids with autism, and other boards saying that if you don't vax and follow NFL practices that you can't have an autistic kid.  MDC offers more examples of "doing all the right things" and still having autism than any mainstream board I have been to.


Of course we all know there are unvaccinated kids with autism. I don't see anywhere on this thread where anyone is denying that. We are talking about vaccines and autism, not autism in general.
 

On another note, back onto this DSM diagnosis subject, can we really honestly say before there was this great ability to diagnosis autism, there were as many children then (prior to these "new" diagnoses) who actually had autism that went undiagnosed as there are today? Don't you think someone would have noticed that years ago? Does it make sense to say that before the "new" diagnosis criteria of autism, it was recognizable that 1 in 150 (is that even still the rate?) children had a neurological problem? I don't recall such deterimental numbers of children with neurological disorders when I was younger.  I say there was certainly a rise in neurological disorders over recent years.  How come after a huge rise in vaccine mandates and a huge rise in autism does not make people want to delve further into this issue? Multiply the many preservatives, viruses, adjuvants, animal tissue, etc, and you have what seems to be a very toxic substance.


Edited by SilverMoon010 - 5/24/11 at 5:34pm
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