Parents keep child's sex secret - What do you think? - Page 7

[habitat]

Originally Posted by 2xy 

I think you are looking for ways to be offended. A chip on the shoulder doesn't help anyone understand anything. Since you don't have an answer to my question, it seems unnecessary for you to respond except to be snarky.

ETA: Yup, I'm ignorant of the whys and wherefores. That's why I ask questions. Thanks for being so nice about it, though.

Also, 2xy, I do understand that maybe you're making an effort to learn, so it's not that you're not allowed to ask questions out of genuine curiosity. But I think it's important to realize that it's easy for people to get offended when certain questions are asked, and especially when it seems you're trying to challenge trans peoples' identities and autonomy over their own bodies. Negative/under-exposed/indignant attitudes about trans people are rampant and harmful. Practicing sensitivity when asking questions is really important. So is being careful not to ask questions in a way that makes it seem as though people are wrong about their own marginalized, gender-transcendent identities.

Asking "what's the point" of a transitioning surgery can feel like you're insinuating that you feel there is no point, and that's a challenge to the reality of a trans-identity. It can make someone feel like you think you know better than they do about the choices that they're making about their bodies and their identities. The idea that a person's choice to transition surgically is not legitimate is oppressive and scary. There is a lot of violence surrounding cis-persons' perspectives on transitions. People can be, understandably, sensitive bout it.

I have many trans people in my family and community, and many of them have sadly suffered at length for the closed-mindedness of others. I also have a radically gender-deviant identity. So, I ask that people are open-minded and compassionate when they ask questions that they expect others to answer according to their experience.

I caution people to understand that this conversation is not hypothetical jibber-jabber. It's not about hype or "extremes". It applies, on a very intimate level, to my life and the lives of others on this thread. It applies to families. Please be kind and respectful.

Edited by habitat - 5/26/11 at 10:14am

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by scottishmommy 

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

And this is probably one of the (GOOD) reasons there are more advocacy groups for women.  It's also highly socially unacceptable for women to abuse their husbands (or boyfriends) as its far more likely that a man will custody of children of the relationship if he alleges abuse, but if a woman alleges abuse (and can prove it!) she is usually forced to send her children on visitation, and is told that she must be lying - b/c we live in a patriarchal society tat holds men up and lets them do everything they want.

Also, the bolded contradicts the (don't remember if it was you who said it) earlier statement that cited men being 90% of murder victims as a reason that men are abused more often.  Men are usually killed by OTHER MEN - not their abusive women partners.  And, men who ARE killed by women partners are usually the abusers themselves.  Of women who suffered from battered woman syndrome and killed their husband, and then went to jail for it, the ones who have been pardoned for that crime and released have a ZERO percent recidivism rate - 0%.  No other formerly incarcerated demographic has that low of a recidivism rate.

Men are abused FAR less often than women.  Women are abused FAR MORE often than is known.  I know so many women who have been abused/are being abused that its not even funny.  It doesn't happen to men on the same level, b/c it is socially acceptable for men to abuse women. 

I'm not saying that I'm going to raise my son to be a doormat and get beat up - I would never do that.  However, he will be expected to show respect to ALL other people, and if he ever starts acting the way his father did towards me, he's going to get an earful.

Like I said before, saying that there are men in abusive relationships in no way is minimizing abuse against women.

That may be how you feel, but try being a woman in an abusive relationship, who's abuser claims to the court that SHE abused HIM.  It happens - often.  And who does the court believe?  Him.  Not her.  Why?  Because men are the "superior sex" or whatever, and they don't lie.  HAHAHAHAHAHA - lying is about all abusive men DO.

I never said that we need less help for women of domestic violence. I just think we need to, as a society, recognize the fact that there are men out there who are being victimized.

There are.  We agree on that.  There are DV organizations that will help men in DV situations, but many cannot provide emergency shelter b/c there are so many women in need of emergency shelter that not everyone fits.

And I never said that men were killed by women, I just said that men are the victims of murder 90% of the time.

And that fact really has nothing to do with DV, b/c men are usually killed by men.  My own personal opinion is that men are more likely to be murder victims b/c they are raised to be "masculine" and are more likely to be violent due to being encouraged to repress their emotions - and when they DO have emotion they can only show anger (or at least thats the way it seems - I'm trying to break that trend with DS)

I can tell you that I was SHOCKED when I found out that there are men who are abused. I always thought that women were non violent, sweet and loving. Of course many women are.

If there were 2 words to describe me with, it would NOT be "sweet" and "loving".  I can be those things, but the opposite of sweet and loving isn't necessarily violent and abusive.  I can be a good person without being "sweet" or "loving".  I'm a woman, and I'm a good person, I'm a good mother, but those are not the words that I would describe myself with.  Or most of the women I know (but I tend to surround myself with strong women who are breaking down barriers).

All I'm saying is that our society doesn't believe that there are male victims out there. We just assume that men are always the perpetrators and never the victims. Why do we make that assumption? Because we are sexist and believe that women are sugar and spice and all things nice? Because we think that men who can't get out of abusive relationships are wimps?
Also, remember that these men I'm talking about are NOT abusers. They are most likely very gentle men who are embarrassed to get help. Also remember that 50 years ago we didn't believe that women were victims of DV either.

I know that there are abused men out there.  There are also lesbians in abusive relationships, and men in heterosexual abusive relationships, and men in homosexual relationships that are abused.  There are ALL kinds of abuse - that most of society doesn't believe exists.  Economic abuse - ever heard of that?  Emotional and psychological abuse - often is chalked up to the woman being "crazy", having PPD, having severe emotional problems, and many times isn't considered "abuse" that is bad enough to warrant a DV organization giving her shelter or legal assistance.  Society CONDONES men abusing women - I've been there, and I know that.  When I was in an abusive relationship, and getting out of it, my friends (well, I thought they were my friends) were telling me that "Well, I'm not going to choose sides, I don't want to lose him as a friend".  Well, sorry that they want to be friends with someone who dragged me across the floor by my ankles, but I'm not interested in being friends with people like that. 

[habitat]

Originally Posted by habitat 

If you're actually interested in the answer to that question, here's the following quote from a female-to-male (FTM) trans writer from Seattle in an article about Trans 101:

Apologies to Asher, who mentions that he doesn't actually identify as FTM any longer. He feels it isn't an accurate representation of his journey through transition. My mistake.

PS - his whole blog is awesome.

Edited by habitat - 5/26/11 at 10:57am

[lovelylisa]

First off, I would like to apologize if my post is rambling because I have SO many things I want to say :)

Well I was thouroughly annoyed when I first read this article and thought that the parents were crazy.  Then I read (all 5 pages) of posts and people really made some interesting points that made me think about it a little more.

For me, gender used to be a very cut and dry thing. I used to believe that gender was what it was and there were no shades of gray about it. I've learned through the years that for some people, however, there are.  Just because I identify as female and don't mind having the door held open for me doesn't mean that other people who have similar genitals as me feel the same way. (Or conversely, people with dissimilar genitals might identify as female and like having the door held open for them as well) Of course I don't mean that I am incapable of doing things for myself. I should be able to choose my own path, regardless of how I was born.

A pp mentioned that  "hiding" your race isn't a good way to combat racisim. I wholeheartedly agree.

My husband and I used to live in a town that is very racist. I still work there. When my husband and I would go out together, people always assumed we weren't together because I am black and he is white. It annoyed the crap out of us. We could go to the grocery store, discussing what we were going to cook for dinner that night, and we would consistently be asked if we were together. 

Now, when people(really only people in the city where I work) see a picture of my son, they look at him and look at me confused. Sometimes they just look at him and don't say anything. Other people feel the need to point out "Oh, is he mixed?" Ugh, no, he's biracial, not a can of paint. Some would say things under their breath that I care not to repeat. Others simply mention that he is beautiful.  For a while I took my pictures of him down because I hated feeling like people would judge my sweet little boy without getting to know him. Then I realized that people some people suck and they always will judge, really not my problem. I put my pictures back up, and then some. He really is a good lookin baby ;) 

Another friend of mine  has a biracial son and feels the need to tell everyone that she will raise him to be a strong, black man. I don't understand why she feels the need to raise him a "insert color here" anything. Why not raise him to be a good person? Why not appreciate all of his ethnicities? There are people who aren;t going to accept him no matter what.

So, on many levels, I certainly understand why these parents go through the steps they do to keep their child gender neutral to others. On the other hand... there ARE differences between men and women. The only difference between races is the color of their skin. And just because something is different, doesn't mean it's bad.  So while I appreciate that they want to raise their child as a good person and don't want other people pushing their beliefs on them...  I don't think gender is something one can ignore.  Choosing not to raise children as one gender or another doesn't make the world any easier for them in the end.

[habitat]

Originally Posted by lovelylisa 

So, on many levels, I certainly understand why these parents go through the steps they do to keep their child gender neutral to others. On the other hand... there ARE differences between men and women. The only difference between races is the color of their skin. And just because something is different, doesn't mean it's bad.  So while I appreciate that they want to raise their child as a good person and don't want other people pushing their beliefs on them...  I don't think gender is something one can ignore.  Choosing not to raise children as one gender or another doesn't make the world any easier for them in the end.

There are differences between people. But that is because they are people. Not necessarily because they identify as men or women (or both or neither). Some people are intersexed and some people are trans. The themes that you see in the differences between men and women are largely conditioned, just as the themes that you see in the differences between people of different priveleges, races and social classes are largely conditioned and created by society. They are not inherent. They are trained.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by hildare 
i have gotten my snark up about this thread and the comments on the billion blogs in which the article is being discussed.  it's hard not to feel personally attacked about all of it since this is what my own family has chosen as well.  i do apologize and i think i just have to make.myself.stay.away. from this thread....  i don't know why this particular issue pushes my buttons so hard.  it's not like i'm not used to seeing other choices/parenting issues knocked about everywhere.  goodness.    maybe the folks criticising the parents in the article will think about how disheartening it is to see something dear trashed like that (extended breastfeeding.. non vaxxing.. unschooling/homeschooling.. etc. ) none of us is exactly mainstream or we wouldn't be here.

Yabbut....disagreement is not the same thing as persecution. I have friends who disagree with my views on religion and also with my views on school. That doesn't mean they trash me or try to tell me I can't or shouldn't do things the way I do. They simply disagree.

If you want to raise gender-neutral children, go for it. I'm not telling you not to. I don't have that right. But I do have the right to think poorly of the idea if I want to, and to talk about it on a discussion forum. Seeing as you hold the position you do, you probably disagree with my decision to raise my children as boys. Should that bother me? Should I feel personally attacked?

At least, thus far, nobody has tried to legislate the gender of your child.

[lovelylisa]

Originally Posted by habitat 

There are differences between people. But that is because they are people. Not necessarily because they identify as men or women (or both or neither). Some people are intersexed and some people are trans. The themes that you see in the differences between men and women are largely conditioned, just as the themes that you see in the differences between people of different privileges, races and social classes are largely conditioned and created by society. They are not inherent. They are trained.

I absolutely agree with you.  I don't mean the social themes.  I mean that there's penises and vaginas ;) And vaginas work differently than penises. 

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by habitat 

There are differences between people. But that is because they are people. Not necessarily because they identify as men or women (or both or neither). Some people are intersexed and some people are trans. The themes that you see in the differences between men and women are largely conditioned, just as the themes that you see in the differences between people of different priveleges, races and social classes are largely conditioned and created by society. They are not inherent. They are trained.

Men & women (sex) ARE different though. There are specific, measurable differences in not just outward appearance (i.e. genitals) but also chromosomes, hormones, reproduction, muscle mass, height, etc. Some of these will have no effect beyond what's visible but others do have effects that are NOT results of social conditioning.

[les_oiseau]

I agree that treatment based on steroetypes can be harmful, a waste of time, wrong, ect. But I don't think the healthy answer is to completely avoid it. I think if they are doing it solely to keep their child from treatment based on his/her gender they are going to give the child a false sense of reality that IMO will only be harmful. People aren't perfect. As a community of people we all have to try to relate to one another the best and only ways we know how. Some people get it horribly wrong. So we are going to conceal things about ourselves to protect ourselves from that? other people's misinterpretations of reality? 

[habitat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy 

Men & women (sex) ARE different though. There are specific, measurable differences in not just outward appearance (i.e. genitals) but also chromosomes, hormones, reproduction, muscle mass, height, etc. Some of these will have no effect beyond what's visible but others do have effects that are NOT results of social conditioning.

I've already explained that I know men with vulvas and women with penises. I know that each and every body is different, and that sometimes a penis correlates with more body mass and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a person with a vulva is shorter than a person with a penis, and sometimes not. Some people with penises also have vulvas. Some people have a clitoris that is the size of some penises and that can work like a penis. Some very tall people have a penis so small that it works like my clit. Some people have breasts and a penis. Many hairy penis-owning people can lactate. And that's all just to speak of the bodies that we are born with.  And beyond that - Yes, reproduction is dependent on a uterus, but I know many men who have those, too.

So, I'm not sure what you mean. Honestly, I think you're working under the illusion of a binary that doesn't exist. You don't always know what's under peoples' clothes, or in their past.

Edited by habitat - 5/26/11 at 11:45am

[lovelylisa]

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy 

Originally Posted by habitat 

There are differences between people. But that is because they are people. Not necessarily because they identify as men or women (or both or neither). Some people are intersexed and some people are trans. The themes that you see in the differences between men and women are largely conditioned, just as the themes that you see in the differences between people of different priveleges, races and social classes are largely conditioned and created by society. They are not inherent. They are trained.

Men & women (sex) ARE different though. There are specific, measurable differences in not just outward appearance (i.e. genitals) but also chromosomes, hormones, reproduction, muscle mass, height, etc. Some of these will have no effect beyond what's visible but others do have effects that are NOT results of social conditioning.

That's a better way of saying what I wanted to say.  No matter how neutral you raise your child, come puberty, you're having a specific conversation with them.

[hildare]

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy 

Originally Posted by habitat 

There are differences between people. But that is because they are people. Not necessarily because they identify as men or women (or both or neither). Some people are intersexed and some people are trans. The themes that you see in the differences between men and women are largely conditioned, just as the themes that you see in the differences between people of different priveleges, races and social classes are largely conditioned and created by society. They are not inherent. They are trained.

Men & women (sex) ARE different though. There are specific, measurable differences in not just outward appearance (i.e. genitals) but also chromosomes, hormones, reproduction, muscle mass, height, etc. Some of these will have no effect beyond what's visible but others do have effects that are NOT results of social conditioning.

ok.. for the sake of argument... what is it, chemically, then, that makes a man?  my father in law considers himself very much to be a man.  he had to take hormone therapy for a tumor that drastically decreased the testosterone level of his body.  is he, then, not a man?  still a man?  how about when he took steroids for said condition and his breasts got bigger?  still a man? 

how about a woman who is childless by choice?  if she doesn't reproduce, is she a woman?  what about if she has a hysterectomy?  what about if SHE takes male hormones? 

i am taller than my cousin.  he says he's a man.  my shoes are bigger.  i say i'm a woman.  are both these things true? 

these are some of the tangles that come from narrow definitions.  there are no correct answers.

[crunchy_mommy]

I'm not sure how to answer that without getting much further into biology than I have time to do right now. DS is crying...

[habitat]

Sex is a spectrum. So is gender. Many people are intersexed. There is no biological evidence to uphold an absolute male/female binary, and certainly no biological evidence to uphold an absolute man/woman binary. There will always be people in the middle of the spectrum.

[lovelylisa]

But people can be born male or female or intersex, correct? What's wrong with calling a male a male? Or a female a female if that's how they were born? 

If the person wishes to be called something else, then that would be because of social factors.

I can understand not wanting your child to be treated differently because of  their gender, but you can't really avoid their sex, can you?  That is still their body and how they were born.

And no matter where you fall on the spectrum of man-woman, that will ultimately effect who you are and how you see the world.

This is why I am not sure why raising a child gender neutral would be of any benefit. A person can shape their identity regardless of their body but they can't avoid how their body works.

ETA.. I would not call someone anything they did not want to be called

[APToddlerMama]

I find that to be an exaggeration.  Also, it doesn't apply to "Storm" or at least I haven't read anything to indicate that. 
 

Originally Posted by habitat 

 Many people are intersexed.

[hildare]

Originally Posted by APToddlerMama 

I find that to be an exaggeration.  Also, it doesn't apply to "Storm" or at least I haven't read anything to indicate that. 
 

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency  

[crunchy_mommy]

Well I've calmed DS down but I'm still not sure how to answer without inadvertently offending someone.

[habitat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hildare 

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency  

How common is intersex?

To answer this question in an uncontroversial way, you’d have to first get everyone to agree on what counts as intersex —and also to agree on what should count as strictly male or strictly female. That’s hard to do. How small does a penis have to be before it counts as intersex? Do you count “sex chromosome” anomalies as intersex if there’s no apparent external sexual ambiguity?¹ (Alice Dreger explores this question in greater depth in her book Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex.)

Here’s what we do know: If you ask experts at medical centers how often a child is born so noticeably atypical in terms of genitalia that a specialist in sex differentiation is called in, the number comes out to about 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births. But a lot more people than that are born with subtler forms of sex anatomy variations, some of which won’t show up until later in life.

So, that addresses whether conversations about intersex and sex-variance may be relevant to us, concerning the lives of our children. I want to be sure that my child knows that I am not defining them by their genitalia or gender. Period.  Maybe their genitalia would change, maybe their identities will. But I plan on avoiding dictating a direct correlation between genitalia and personhood. How individual parents do that is up to them, but there are many legitimate and loving ways to go about it.

[habitat]

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy 

Well I've calmed DS down but I'm still not sure how to answer without inadvertently offending someone.

Then perhaps there is no way of describing your definition of "man" and "woman" without being cissexist or transphobic, and therefore "inadvertently" oppressive?