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Parents keep child's sex secret - What do you think? - Page 8

post #141 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by hildare View Post





http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency  


link won't open for me

 

I am not sure intrasexed applies to Storm and based on the articles I have read, I am not sure that this is the issue the parents are concerned about. My sense was it was more related to gender stereotypes and expectations rather than concerns about transgender issues.  
 

 

post #142 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karenwith4 View Post




link won't open for me

 

I am not sure intrasexed applies to Storm and based on the articles I have read, I am not sure that this is the issue the parents are concerned about. My sense was it was more related to gender stereotypes and expectations rather than concerns about transgender issues.  
 

 

 

You're right, but our arguement is that in a world where gender and sex are both wildly variant spectrums, there is no way to define "boy" or "girl". The parents do not know the gender, as gender is only truly legitimate as a matter of self-identity and not as a matter of biology. And even if gender were directly correlated with sex, sex is a spectrum (hence, "intersex").

 

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency
 

 

post #143 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovelylisa View Post






That's a better way of saying what I wanted to say.  No matter how neutral you raise your child, come puberty, you're having a specific conversation with them.

 

Certainly not! My children are being consistently schooled in transawareness, gender deconstruction, etc. From their birth. Full stop.
 

 

post #144 of 224

Oy, I have muddled through the whole thread dizzy.gif.  Some great stuff in there.

 

I just wanted to add the perspective of how my family has chosen to raise our kid.  Both my DH and I abhor the gender stereotyping that clothing and toy choices place upon a child, so we have decided to do the best we can to be gender neutral in those arena.  I've been reading hildare's posts with interest because we have made basically the same choices that she has.  It will be interesting to see how the journeys of our children diverge though since her child is biologically xx and mine is xy.

 

I have to say that finding clothes for my kid became extremely difficult once he was out of layette sizes.  So I learned how to batik, and now I decorate most of his clothes myself.  I refuse to be constrained by gender themes though, so he has a truck shirt that is bright magenta, and lots of rainbow stuff.  He loves purple so I made him a bunch of shirts, pants and a hoodie in that color (btw, when the heck did purple become a "girl" color??).  He has stuff from both sides of the aisle; straw cups and bibs with cars and with flowers, play kitchen, dolls and toy trains.  It actually makes my blood boil that I am expected to choose between two extremely gendered options for mundane things like sippy cups and toddler underwear.  Or diaper covers for that matter.  Bleurgh.

 

What I avoid are things that scream hyper-masculine or hyper-feminine because I do not find those appropriate for a young child.  Everything else in the middle is fair game.  My family thinks I am crazy (hello mom!).  We also don't have TV so he is pretty sheltered at this point.

 

Like other posters my kid is referred to as both he and she.  I'm cool with that.  I will usually correct only because he is a he, but I want him to be older and more able to think about/analyze his choices before we open the doors of male gender typing wide and let him peek inside.

 

ETA: Here is an interesting article on gender neutral pronouns.  I'm a big fan of Hu.


Edited by Chamomile Girl - 5/27/11 at 8:11am
post #145 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by habitat View Post





Then perhaps there is no way of describing your definition of "man" and "woman" without being cissexist or transphobic, and therefore "inadvertently" oppressive?


No, it's more that I feel you'll find ANYTHING I say offensive, just because my views are different than yours.

I'm phobic of heights and enclosed spaces... not people. And I don't believe any group of people is inherently superior or inferior to any other.
post #146 of 224

Honestly, the parents in the article seem self-centered with an over-inflated sense of self-importance, displaying attention-seeking behavior (let's keep the whole world guessing the sex of our child, won't that be fun!  Maybe someone will even write an article about us!).  Passerby don't care about the deep-seated gender of the child, just whether it was born physically a boy or girl.  It's basic human curiosity.  I know people feel judged for their opinions in this thread, but what about the judgement displayed by the parents in the article?  They don't trust their own parents with this information?  They believe that the child's grandparents will treat the child differently because of gender/sex?  Is the lady sitting next to them on the bus going to treat the baby differently if they tell her if it's a boy or girl?  Is she going to crush Storm's identity during the 5 minute ride?  Really?  That's some pretty harsh judgement right there.

post #147 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramama View Post

Honestly, the parents in the article seem self-centered with an over-inflated sense of self-importance, displaying attention-seeking behavior (let's keep the whole world guessing the sex of our child, won't that be fun!  Maybe someone will even write an article about us!).  Passerby don't care about the deep-seated gender of the child, just whether it was born physically a boy or girl.  It's basic human curiosity.  I know people feel judged for their opinions in this thread, but what about the judgement displayed by the parents in the article?  They don't trust their own parents with this information?  They believe that the child's grandparents will treat the child differently because of gender/sex?  Is the lady sitting next to them on the bus going to treat the baby differently if they tell her if it's a boy or girl?  Is she going to crush Storm's identity during the 5 minute ride?  Really?  That's some pretty harsh judgement right there.


One would assume they know their parents.  I know that when we refused to find out the sex of our child before birth it almost created WWIII in my family.  My mother was very fond of letting me know that she WOULD be buying the baby pink frilly princess stuff if he were a girl because that is a girl's birthright.  In fact she had already stocked up before he was born and was very peeved when he was born with a penis (not that I would have let my child wear that stuff even without a penis).  I held on to the sparkle jeans she gave us though because those where awesome in a glam way.  Unfortuantely they never fit over his cloth diaper irked.gif.

 

But anyway, to respond directly to your post, I think there have been many posters in this thread who are saying that YES children do get treated differently based on their perceived gender.  So do adults for that matter.  Were you never limited in what you were supposed to do, say, think, look like, aspire to, because you are female?  I sure as heck was...hoo boy!

 

post #148 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy View Post

No, it's more that I feel you'll find ANYTHING I say offensive, just because my views are different than yours.

I'm phobic of heights and enclosed spaces... not people. And I don't believe any group of people is inherently superior or inferior to any other.


 

I'm not offended by viewpoints that are different than mine, so long as they respectfully acknowledge the legitimacy of the identities of other people.

 

cissexism - the belief that transsexuals' identified genders are inferior to, or less authentic than, those of cissexuals.

 

When you say that there is a stark male/female, girl/boy, man/woman binary, that is a denial of the people who identify outside of those labels.

post #149 of 224

However, just because there are plenty of people who have different stances on gender issues, and prefer not to be labeled male or female or what have you, that doesn't make those of us who don't have those feelings closed minded or ignorant !I am a hetero female married to a hetero male and we have a son who is a boy. I don't dress him in pink and I probably will not grow his hair long when he is a toddler. That doesn't make me closed minded or prejudiced against people who do feel transgendered or genderless or anything on that spectrum. That is just my natural inclination. I don't NOT dress him in pink, lol, it is just not something I tend to choose for him.  It makes me uncomfortable in some way that the parents in the original article are choosing not to claim a gender for their baby. But at the same time, I guess if that is an issue in their lives it is their right to do so, just as much as it is a parents right to raise their child with values that are important to them. I just feel that there is some feeling that people who are "politically correct" or open minded are supposed to always be 100% behind this genderlessness thing- and for me, I am 100% fine with however people feel they need to identify themselves in this respect. I just don't feel that it is wrong if I choose to go with asigning  my own son a gender role of male! I guess I am reading a lot of posts in this thread were people are discussing the ways in which they don't force a gender on their kids. And that is fine. But I don't think that is the only right way to raise a child! I probably didn't express that as clearly as I want to- I just kind of wanted to address the aspect, both in this gender issue and in lots of AP parenting or any politically correct type of issue where there is sometimes controversy and discussion, that people who choose to go with the traditional male female names and such are not more closed minded or ignorant than people who don't- that is probably stating the obvious. But I think ultimately my point is that I don't personally see why it is wrong for the parents in the article to call their baby a boy or girl, and I don't find it noble or heroic that they choose not to. I just see it as their own personal agenda- not in a bad way, but just clearly something that is important to them.

post #150 of 224

Crunchy_mommy  I don't identify as cisgendered, I guess I'd be genderqueer if someone needed to label me. The best I can explain intersex is  by  looking at  colors on a spectrum say red  and  orange for instance. For easy discussion we can all say we know what  is red and what is orange. However in reality  there are several shades of each which are actually a mix of  red and orange. Some shades are obviously a mixture of both but some shades are more subtle. The kind of red you'd call red if it was paired with yellow, but when next to the pure pigment of red it looks way more orange ( "red" "with" and "red it" were all typed with the same font color).  So while there may be male and female as far as sex is concerned, sure there are differences between men and women, but  they are subjective and actually represent a spectrum. Even if at first glance you think you can identify someone firmly either/or  you may have re evaluate in a different setting.

 

I hope that made sense.

post #151 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by AttunedMama View Post



 

Certainly not! My children are being consistently schooled in transawareness, gender deconstruction, etc. From their birth. Full stop.
 

 




Forgive me because I don't understand what you mean.  And I'm not sure I explained what I meant. I mean that if your child is a female and that's something she will experience,  you're explaining what a period is. I don't mean that's the only thing you're going to teach them. I don't understand why you wouldn't .

 

 

post #152 of 224

I found this interesting given the current discussion.

 

 

http://www.isna.org/faq/gender_assignment

 

ETA.. this too.

 

http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex

 

 

 

post #153 of 224

So while there may be male and female as far as sex is concerned, sure there are differences between men and women, but  they are subjective and actually represent a spectrum. Even if at first glance you think you can identify someone firmly either/or  you may have re evaluate in a different setting.

 

For me, here is the question though, relative to some of the comments previous to yours.  Your username is "HeliMom".  My assumption is that is some combo of something that has meaning to you, and that you are likely a "Mom"...... implying that you are female.  And, that if in conversation there was the need to use a pronoun, the basic construct of English is that "she" would be used, right?

 

Would it offend you for me to make those assumptions, based on the first standard cues a person gets, and use what you might consider to be the wrong pronouns?

 

I guess as I have read this thread, I just don't necessarily get what a person is really supposed to do given the constraints of the basic English language.

 

To me, and maybe this is just very backward of me, it would seem more odd of me to say hello, introduce myself, learn what your name was, then ask you what gender identifying, or non identifying, pronouns you'd like me to use within our conversation.  It seems more realistic to hear a name, take a stab at the correct pronoun, and respect a correction to it.

 

It seems like such a jump to say that people who don't figure out all the possible variations and correct language to use that is completely gender neutral and right on for all the variations, is essentially out to marginalize the community of people who don't gender identify as male or female.  

 

Isn't there any leeway to at least let people get through "Hi" and "Nice to meet you"..... before someone is supposed to ask how a person gender identifies?

 

 

 

 

 

post #154 of 224
HeliMom -- LOL all those colors made my eyes go wacky!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by habitat View Post




 

I'm not offended by viewpoints that are different than mine, so long as they respectfully acknowledge the legitimacy of the identities of other people.

 

cissexism - the belief that transsexuals' identified genders are inferior to, or less authentic than, those of cissexuals.

 

When you say that there is a stark male/female, girl/boy, man/woman binary, that is a denial of the people who identify outside of those labels.


I do not think anyone is inferior. Whether or not I feel something is legitimate is irrelevant, I can still value a person as a human and value their experiences.

I do not deny that 'intersex' exists as a difference in biological sex. And I don't deny that there is a spectrum of intersex. I guess I am saying there are 3 biological sexes -- male, female, and intersex. I do believe (and the stats back this up) that most people are born male or female and it is quite clear based on their biological makeup. To simplify this so I don't have to make this post 100 pages long, I'd say penis, sperm, etc. = male, XY = male; vagina, uterus, XX, etc. = female. I also fully understand that there are variations in anatomy, chromosomal differences, hormonal differences, etc. that makes some children's biological sex unclear either at birth or as they grow. I think that biological sex and social gender are two completely different things. Gender is pretty meaningless in the absence of societal constructs. I have no problem with people identifying with whichever societal construct best fits their personality, interests, etc. I think it is ridiculous that pink is for girls and boys aren't supposed to cry etc. It's hard for me to fully understand what it means to identify as male gender because male gender is just something made up. But I do think we can identify someone's biological sex as either male, female, or intersex (and yes I know that sometimes the designation of M/F is arbitrarily given at birth when perhaps it should be 'intersex'), and that doing so has value in terms of medical treatment, reproduction, etc.

That's about the best I can explain my view without getting too much into my personal beliefs.
post #155 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAmom View Post

 

It seems like such a jump to say that people who don't figure out all the possible variations and correct language to use that is completely gender neutral and right on for all the variations, is essentially out to marginalize the community of people who don't gender identify as male or female.  

 

 

 

 

 



I find this topic fascinating and I keep coming back to it  :) 

 

I really tend to agree with you.  That's kind of the problem I have with the parents in the article. While I respect their decision,  on the other hand, when does a person get to be nice? Can't they just say your girl is beautiful or your boy is strong and mean it because they geniunely like your children?  I don't believe most people have an agenda when they make comments, they just want to say something nice.

 

Isn't it up to the parents to teach the kids that people are created equal and about the differences in people? 

post #156 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovelylisa View Post





I find this topic fascinating and I keep coming back to it  :) 

 

I really tend to agree with you.  That's kind of the problem I have with the parents in the article. While I respect their decision,  on the other hand, when does a person get to be nice? Can't they just say your girl is beautiful or your boy is strong and mean it because they geniunely like your children?  I don't believe most people have an agenda when they make comments, they just want to say something nice.

 

Isn't it up to the parents to teach the kids that people are created equal and about the differences in people? 



No they can't.  Because it teaches that girls need to value their beauty (and by omission not their strength), and that boys need to value their strength (and by omission not their beauty).  Both of these are stereotypes that need to be challenged.

 

And at what point does someone's "right" to be nice (in a way I do not deem appropriate) trump my kid's right to not be pigeonholed because of their perceived gender?

post #157 of 224

 

 

Quote:

I don't believe most people have an agenda when they make comments, they just want to say something nice.

 

Isn't it up to the parents to teach the kids that people are created equal and about the differences in people? 

 

 

Stranger seem to make very rude comments-IMO

 

Judgmental comments, not that they are not made by family members as well.

 

"use to be" you didn't say something unless it was nice, it really doesn't seem the case any more

 

It is not up to the parents alone -IMO- parents are the first to try and created equal playing field but if society at large does not it will not go too far.

 

For a long periods of time parents of girls told them they could be what ever they wanted-------took "society" a long time to catch up.

post #158 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

 

"use to be" you didn't say something unless it was nice, it really doesn't seem the case any more

 

It seems you can't say anything nice without offending someone as well :) 

 

I'm not saying that people aren't jerks and that things shouldn't be challenged. Trust me, I totally get that. I just want to point out that not everyone has the same point of view. Some may see it as someone trying to push a gender sterotype on someone, but the person just could have been trying to say something nice.

 

 

My grandma thinks it's a compliment to call someone fat. When I was a chubby awkward teenager she used to tell me how fat I was getting. So, I would cry. That was until my dad explained to me that when she was growing up, fat was good because nobody had any food. So I just learned to accept that she was trying to give me a compliment, said thank you and told her she looked great herself.  Just because I (still) don't think it was appropriate, I accepted it and moved on.

 

However, I see the point about it being used to pigeonhole kids into something the parents don't want them to be... I just don't see it that way, but that's  cool!  I never would have thought of it before :)

 

 

 

post #159 of 224
No don't get offended when people use female pronouns for me, I prefer the grammatically incorrect "they" and their" but I really try my best to give people thbenefit of the doubt. I expect of people to do their best not to offend someone, and I feel it's my responsibility to try my best not to be offended. I don't think that ignorance is necessarily rudeness. So I try my best to inform, now if after corrected someone on how I'd like to be referred to,.and they refused to try to make an effort to call me that, that's when I'd get upset. But honestly I never correct people on pronoun usage or sex assumptions, or sexual orientation assumptions, because for me, it's not a big deal. I do like to put in my 2 cents in general discussions about sex, gender, and sexual orienration, and I do my best to enlighten people to the spectrums.

I don't speak for all of us who don't fit neatly into boxes, I just speak for me. really.


And also crunchy mommy I don't think you seem transphobic, but then again I buy into the idea that gender is made up socially, so I might be in trouble too.
post #160 of 224

 

No they can't.  Because it teaches that girls need to value their beauty (and by omission not their strength), and that boys need to value their strength (and by omission not their beauty).  Both of these are stereotypes that need to be challenged.

 

And at what point does someone's "right" to be nice (in a way I do not deem appropriate) trump my kid's right to not be pigeonholed because of their perceived gender?

 

But what are you teaching your child if you teach them to give that much weight to a random "compliment" by a stranger?

 

What is a child learning if they look to validation from others, whether it is good or bad?

 

If someone says something nasty to a child, wouldn't you tell them that the other person was the one with the problem and not to listen?

 

If what you believe is that it is just as bad for someone to tell a girl she is beautiful, then teach your child to likewise believe that some comment, even a well intentioned one, is really uneducated and not to pay any mind to it.

 

And thank you HeliMom for answering.  I do appreciate it.  And, I appreciate that you give the benefit of the doubt.  I'm not a big fan of people in general.  My kids have had to learn some hard lessons already, and it is amazing how mean people can be.  But I also know, there are people in this world that sometimes do the best they can, and because they don't walk along the same life path you do have no idea that they are doing anything wrong.  

 

edited to add:  I just wanted to add that the "right" to be nice may well not be a right, but if people in this world of ours decide to stop even taking a moment to be kind to each other, even with a misguided "compliment" to call someone's child beautiful, then what kind of world is that?  Is everyone just supposed to keep inside their own little box, not look at anyone, or say anything?  

 

 

 

 

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