Parents keep child's sex secret - What do you think? - Page 3

[waiting2bemommy]

You know, for a while I was thinking to myself that I could sort of see where they were coming from, because I'm another one who allows my kids to do what they like and ignore gender stereotypes....ds likes to cook, dd likes trucks, etc. I don't, however, try to force them to be something they are not. My ds is a boy. He likes to run around crashing things together. My dd loves nail polish and glitter. I'm not going to tell her she can't be pink and girly because she needs to defy stereotypes. That is equally as repressive. That is kind of what I see going on with families like these. You can't tell me they don't beam with delight when their boy picks out a frilly pink dress, because these parents *like* being different and maing their point. They can't make their point if they have a boy who likes buzz cuts and a girl who wants to wear sparkly high heels. Their kid is going to pick up on that.

But aside from all that I resent the idea of these people trying to hide what their child is. Either the child is a girl, or it is a boy. It's not a kangaroo. It's a human. and there are two options. Does that mean that the child might not grow up and decide that he/she was born in the wrong body? It's possible. Gender confusion happens. I knew a kid who was born with both genitalia and he struggled with this. But the fact is that at THIS time, this is a girl child, or this is a boy child. Trying to act like that is not the case is just ridiculous and also makes me mad because there are so many other things that people get judges for, that can't be hidden or changed. We have to learn to love ourselves as we are, regardless of what society tells us. When my son was born, I picked his nae carefully, so that his ethnicity would be represented, but not be obvious on college applications and job applications. But I didn't wrap him up so that no one could tell he was Puerto Rican and black, in case they might have stereotypes about how a Puerto Rican/black boy should act. There are plenty of times (when dealing with the school system, especially) when I wish that people did NOT know his ethnicity, because they classify him based on that. But his skin color is a fact of life. My best option as a parent is to teach him to rise above people who think that he should talk, act, or dress a certain way because of who he is, be that his gender, race or anything else. But these people are white. This thought probably never crossed their mind. It never occurred to them that you can't have everything the way YOU want it, because that's not how the world works. You don't get to control other people. You ony get to control your own self.

[habitat]

Originally Posted by waiting2bemommy 

You know, for a while I was thinking to myself that I could sort of see where they were coming from, because I'm another one who allows my kids to do what they like and ignore gender stereotypes....ds likes to cook, dd likes trucks, etc. I don't, however, try to force them to be something they are not. My ds is a boy. He likes to run around crashing things together. My dd loves nail polish and glitter. I'm not going to tell her she can't be pink and girly because she needs to defy stereotypes. That is equally as repressive. That is kind of what I see going on with families like these. You can't tell me they don't beam with delight when their boy picks out a frilly pink dress, because these parents *like* being different and maing their point. They can't make their point if they have a boy who likes buzz cuts and a girl who wants to wear sparkly high heels. Their kid is going to pick up on that.

But aside from all that I resent the idea of these people trying to hide what their child is. Either the child is a girl, or it is a boy. It's not a kangaroo. It's a human. and there are two options. Does that mean that the child might not grow up and decide that he/she was born in the wrong body? It's possible. Gender confusion happens. I knew a kid who was born with both genitalia and he struggled with this. But the fact is that at THIS time, this is a girl child, or this is a boy child. Trying to act like that is not the case is just ridiculous and also makes me mad because there are so many other things that people get judges for, that can't be hidden or changed. We have to learn to love ourselves as we are, regardless of what society tells us. When my son was born, I picked his nae carefully, so that his ethnicity would be represented, but not be obvious on college applications and job applications. But I didn't wrap him up so that no one could tell he was Puerto Rican and black, in case they might have stereotypes about how a Puerto Rican/black boy should act. There are plenty of times (when dealing with the school system, especially) when I wish that people did NOT know his ethnicity, because they classify him based on that. But his skin color is a fact of life. My best option as a parent is to teach him to rise above people who think that he should talk, act, or dress a certain way because of who he is, be that his gender, race or anything else. But these people are white. This thought probably never crossed their mind. It never occurred to them that you can't have everything the way YOU want it, because that's not how the world works. You don't get to control other people. You ony get to control your own self.

No. I have many genderqueer friends who are neither "man" or "woman". I know trans and intersex children. I have experience with gender-choosing and gender-transcendence. This child is a child, until this child decides their gender. Most parents choose their children's gender.   And I'm fine with that, but it isn't inherent in their sex. Saying that it is feels like an insult to me and to my very queer family/community. Why should a parent be forced or pressured to assign a gender to their child, when they want to welcome their child to create their own gender identity?

[ollyoxenfree]

I see nothing wrong with raising a child to ignore or overcome artificial cultural boundaries around sex and gender. I don't think publicly denying a child's sex is the way to do it though. They seem like parents with good intentions. Of course, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. 

There is something disquieting about parents who turn their child into the subject of an experiment - even a personal experiment with no thought of a future book or movie deal. I question who really benefits from this experiment. The parents get to demonstrate how wonderfully progressive and unbiased they are. I'm not sure what the goal is for the child - who presumably will know what sex s/he is and can learn, like so many other people have, that s/he is not limited by that biology. 

I've been thinking about how long they can keep hiding it. I suppose they can avoid public sex identification for quite awhile, especially if they unschool. As the child grows older, they must be planning on using family washrooms, joining co-ed sports teams only (often popular until adolescence anyway), and avoiding any activities that sort by sex. It seems to me that they can do all of that anyway, without the secrecy, and instill positive attitudes about sex and gender in their child. If the child and family have healthy attitudes about sex and gender, hiding and secrecy seems unnecessary and more likely to cause problems than solve them. 

[habitat]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

I see nothing wrong with raising a child to ignore or overcome artificial cultural boundaries around sex and gender. I don't think publicly denying a child's sex is the way to do it though. They seem like parents with good intentions. Of course, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. 

There is something disquieting about parents who turn their child into the subject of an experiment - even a personal experiment with no thought of a future book or movie deal. I question who really benefits from this experiment. The parents get to demonstrate how wonderfully progressive and unbiased they are. I'm not sure what the goal is for the child - who presumably will know what sex s/he is and can learn, like so many other people have, that s/he is not limited by that biology. 

I've been thinking about how long they can keep hiding it. I suppose they can avoid public sex identification for quite awhile, especially if they unschool. As the child grows older, they must be planning on using family washrooms, joining co-ed sports teams only (often popular until adolescence anyway), and avoiding any activities that sort by sex. It seems to me that they can do all of that anyway, without the secrecy, and instill positive attitudes about sex and gender in their child. If the child and family have healthy attitudes about sex and gender, hiding and secrecy seems unnecessary and more likely to cause problems than solve them. 

I just don't feel like genitalia is anyone else's business. I have many queer/trans people in my life who resent questions about their genitalia. I don't get those questions because I'm not currently identifying as trans and I have a femme identity, but really - if I presented differently, I'd be weary of people asking me genitalia questions. Why should that matter, really? And child androgyny is not a social experiment at this point, it's been around for a very long time, regardless of mainstream exposure. With support and love, it is not necessarily any less socially healthy than an assigned gender, considering the backlash of the binary we've perpetuated and used to oppress (and kill) all kinds of people over thousands of years.

I have a hard time when people label anything that's uncomfortable to them as an "experiment". Every bloody choice we make could be labeled that way. I experiment with paint and hairstyles, for goodness sake. Making a well thought-out (perhaps motivated by experience or study) parenting decision is not experimentation. It's a choice. And if it's about loving your child and does not seem to cause them pain, it should be respected.

[waiting2bemommy]

Originally Posted by habitat 

No. I have many genderqueer friends who are neither "man" or "woman". I know trans and intersex children. I have experience with gender-choosing and gender-transcendence. This child is a child, until this child decides their gender. Most parents choose their children's gender.   And I'm fine with that, but it isn't inherent in their sex. Saying that it is feels like an insult to me and to my very queer family/community. Why should a parent be forced or pressured to assign a gender to their child, when they want to welcome their child to create their own gender identity?

So you're saying that penisdoes not equal boy, and vagina does not equal girl? Then what IS a boy? What IS a girl? Because if the genitalia of the individual don't determine gender, then it must be behavior and social preferences that determine it, which basically goes right back to stereotyping. I mean Ijust can't fathom how this works. If a child with a penis happens to love dresses, and sparkly nail polish and mostly wants to play with girls, and eventually grows up and falls in love with a man, does that mean that person is actually a female? because then what you are telling me is that dresses and sparkly nail polish and loving men is what makes one a female.

[habitat]

Originally Posted by waiting2bemommy 

So you're saying that penisdoes not equal boy, and vagina does not equal girl? Then what IS a boy? What IS a girl? Because if the genitalia of the individual don't determine gender, then it must be behavior and social preferences that determine it, which basically goes right back to stereotyping. I mean Ijust can't fathom how this works. If a child with a penis happens to love dresses, and sparkly nail polish and mostly wants to play with girls, and eventually grows up and falls in love with a man, does that mean that person is actually a female? because then what you are telling me is that dresses and sparkly nail polish and loving men is what makes one a female.

This is a whole anthropological and philosophical area of study, so maybe I won't do it complete justice, but here goes:

It means that the terms "boy" and "girl" are terms that are irrelevant until chosen. It's conceivable that a person may sometimes identify as a man and sometimes as a woman and sometimes as both or neither, depending on what that means to them, given a whole combination of things. Sometimes it's about hair or body-feel or "femme"/"butch" identity. Sometimes a person doesn't have a gender identity, per say. Sometimes people identify as asexual, androgynous AND trans. This is about what these labels mean to them, since there is no proper scientific/biological use of the words "boy" and "girl". These terms mean nothing to people who study the human body. But they may be helpful in describing self-identities, depending on who you're talking to and why.

So, I am a queer, genderqueer (but not trans, even though they often correlate) femme. When given a choice between "man" and "woman", I am a woman, because that term is more endeared to me and my personal identity, but it doesn't hold much weight about my body, as many of the women I know have very different bodies from mine. I'm currently fine with either so-called "female" pronouns (she/her) , or androgynous prounouns (they/them, zi/zir, co).

Also, many people have a penis and a vulva, and there is nothing wrong with them. So penis can't conceivably only mean boy and a vulva can't only mean girl.

Edited by habitat - 5/24/11 at 10:54am

[Smokering]

Serenbat: Thanks for the pictures! Those are pretty gender-neutral clothes. I don't personally shop at big box stores (I try to avoid MIC stuff, at least when it's new), and I'm not a huge fan of pink, so I was wondering where all her pink stuff came from... duh, hand-me-downs. (And of course, relatives' "I know you don't like stuff made in sweatshops, but I bought DD these" gifts... which is a whole 'nother story...) I suppose if someone with a three-year-old boy gave me hand-me-downs there's plenty of stuff she could wear, but no-one's likely to! And I suspect she wouldn't go for it anyway - she really is a fan of the frills and the pink. I was thrilled when she requested a blue fairy dress for dancing class, and that's hardly the epitome of a gender-neutral outfit! :p

[Adaline'sMama]

I have to say, that while I fully support the idea of raising a gender neutral child, I have such mixed feelings about it comes to my daughter. Living in an archosubculture for so long, one of the things that have I found to be slightly upsetting about people wanting children to be raised neutral is the fact that there is some assumption that you are letting them "pick" there own gender as they grow older. I know people who are in their 30's and still havent made up their minds about whether they identify more as a male or female or neither. That is okay, but I want my daughter to be PROUD to be a girl, at least until she decides that she doesnt feel like a girl and doesnt want to be a girl. People are people before they are boys are girls, but coming from a family where women have not always excelled in education or at having opinions, I want to raise a strong, proud, self confident, smart, girl. If she wants to play with tractors, eat mud, and wear all boys clothes in a couple of years- fine. If she wants to play with sticks, eat wild food, camp in the woods, and run around naked- thats fine. If she wants to play tea party, bake, and wear a princess dress every single day of her life- thats fine too. Right now, she is a baby. I dress her in whatever people give me, and she plays with blocks, cars, kitchen stuff, dolls, ducks, but mostly, the stuff we dont want her to play with. To me, its more about NOT making desicions for every little thing she does than it is making desicions about what she is and isnt exposed to so that she may or may not be one way or another.

But, more power to the mamas who are raising their child genderless. I just dont have the energy to fight with all the people who give me free clothes

[kathymuggle]

Interesting conversation.  I need to reread it when I have more time.

My 2 cents.....I think it is fine to raise children in a gender neutral way.  Gender neutral toys and clothes when they are young, followed by letting them decide when they are ready.  Pointing out stereotypes and the like.

I think refusing to tell people your children's gender goes too far.  It makes it seem like there is something wrong with being a boy or a girl - and there isn't. It also draws attention to a kid that they may not want as they age.  I am almost always against making our children poster children for our causes.

[habitat]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Interesting conversation.  I need to reread it when I have more time.

My 2 cents.....I think it is fine to raise children in a gender neutral way.  Gender neutral toys and clothes when they are young, followed by letting them decide when they are ready.  Pointing out stereotypes and the like.

I think refusing to tell people your children's gender goes too far.  It makes it seem like there is something wrong with being a boy or a girl - and there isn't. It also draws attention to a kid that they may not want as they age.  I am almost always against making our children poster children for our causes.

Kathy, there's nothing wrong with being a boy or a girl. Gender does not correlate with sex. So, I would argue, the parents can't reveal the gender - to their minds, they don't know it yet because the child hasn't chosen one. They could reveal the sex, but why should they be obliged to discuss their child's genitalia with everyone who asks, particularly when these people are presumably going to use genitalia to assign a gender?

[macandcheese]

To add to the discussion on gender identity, here's a pretty cool clip from National Geographic that profiles the Bugis of Indonesia, who have five established and accepted genders:

http://genderfork.com/2009/the-bugis-five-genders/

FWIW, my child clearly has male genitalia and we are raising him as a boy, but we don't place any expectations on his gender. He's got boy, girl, and gender non-specific clothes, toys, books, etc., and we hope this helps to mitigate any cultural/societal expectations about his gender performance.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by habitat 

Kathy, there's nothing wrong with being a boy or a girl. Gender does not correlate with sex. So, I would argue, the parents can't reveal the gender - to their minds, they don't know it yet because the child hasn't chosen one. They could reveal the sex, but why should they be obliged to discuss their child's genitalia with everyone who asks, particularly when these people are presumably going to use genitalia to assign a gender?

First off - I really do need to reread this thread because many of the ideas are new to me.

That being said - I do not think they are obliged to reveal the sex.  I just think revealing it in some circumstances may be better than hiding it.  Hiding things is not usually good.  There is a line between hiding and not revealing - and as long as they stay in "you know this is none of your business and should not affect things" and does not delve into drawing attention to the matter through secretiveness, fine.  Sometimes being super secretive actually draws more attention to an issue than it warrants.  Of course that is not their fault -but it is how society works and it is their child, and it would concern me.

I think we all to some extent make our children stand out through our choices.  Johnny does not eat sugar, Johnny does not watch tv, Johnny does not go to school....Whenever we make our kids stand out through our choices we better be sure that what we are doing it for is really in their best interest.  I imagine the parents believe the pros of not revealing the childs sex outweigh the negatives.  I would not make the same call - but I am not Storms parents.  

[serenbat]

 I just think revealing it in some circumstances may be better than hiding it.  Hiding things is not usually good.

that would be nice if the world was perfect!

in the real world (as for the US) we judge people 

one of the first things out of an adult when they meet another is "what do you do for a living"?     not who are you? 

with children is is a judgement from birth if gender is not know

it was my DH that would not tell anyone what the sex was prior to birth and it is he that will not correct a stranger (I am more likely too and most times they are not paying attention anyway!!!) - it was my DH that requested gender neutral items and really is pushing this ------- he hates the way males are treated in US society.

[Sourire]

Interesting topic.

I have a friend with a 2-year old girl who always dresses her baby in pink and dresses and lace and frills. When the baby was born she told me how utterly terrified she was of someone thinking the baby was a boy or accidentally calling it a boy or having to ask the gender. According to my friend any of those situations would have been extremely upsetting to her as a mother. When she was telling me this story I remember thinking to myself "why on earth would you care what gender other people think your kids are?"

My friend is one extreme of the spectrum. The parents in the article are the other. I think both sides may have a point although I would not choose to go either route. I will probably fall somewhere in the middle... though where exactly I am in the middle will surely evolve as I raise my children.

The main reason I personally would not choose to hide the sex of my baby is that my parents were very non-mainstream as a child and I always knew my family was different from the other kids families. I did not enjoy being different as a child (in fact it made me miserable when I was a pre-teen). Although I do embrace being different now, I think my childhood would have been happier if I felt more normal. However if another parent I knew decided to raise their child without disclosing the sex I would probably just get over it, the same way I got over my friend being nuts about people knowing the gender of her child.

It is unfortunate that the choice to raise a gender neutral child is much more "fringe" than the choice to raise a super girly girl who must always wear pink because I think both of these choices are equally extreme and parents who make the two choices should be treated in the same way!

[APToddlerMama]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

you could not be father and more off base from the truth

minor examples--------When our DS's hair was short- no one even thought he was a male--------I got and now still do with long hair "he can't be a boy-he's too cute"

He talked early and is very advanced-----I have gotten more negative comments direct at him and us when we are in public IF it is thought he is a male!

We let people draw their own conclusion we DO NOT force an agenda. This in NO way means we are not proud of who he is-sex is not gender.

sorry, but you really do not have a clue!

The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't have a clue.  You say your partner "hates how males are treated" in our society.  And you feel there are negative comments directed at your son also solely based on him being male.  If you really believe that (which I do not as I think an equal or great number or people would feel females are subject to much more gender negativity) then why don't you work to *change* those stereotypes and biases that you feel will have a negative impact on your son rather than hide his sex?

[serenbat]

there is a vast difference between hiding and pushing- because we choose not to flaunt you wrong assume we hide

what difference does this make to you? are you effected by seeing my child? why must he be something to you?

[habitat]

Originally Posted by macandcheese 

To add to the discussion on gender identity, here's a pretty cool clip from National Geographic that profiles the Bugis of Indonesia, who have five established and accepted genders:

http://genderfork.com/2009/the-bugis-five-genders/

FWIW, my child clearly has male genitalia and we are raising him as a boy, but we don't place any expectations on his gender. He's got boy, girl, and gender non-specific clothes, toys, books, etc., and we hope this helps to mitigate any cultural/societal expectations about his gender performance.

Cool clip! I love learning about this stuff.

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

First off - I really do need to reread this thread because many of the ideas are new to me.

That being said - I do not think they are obliged to reveal the sex.  I just think revealing it in some circumstances may be better than hiding it.  Hiding things is not usually good.  There is a line between hiding and not revealing - and as long as they stay in "you know this is none of your business and should not affect things" and does not delve into drawing attention to the matter through secretiveness, fine.  Sometimes being super secretive actually draws more attention to an issue than it warrants.  Of course that is not their fault -but it is how society works and it is their child, and it would concern me.

I think we all to some extent make our children stand out through our choices.  Johnny does not eat sugar, Johnny does not watch tv, Johnny does not go to school....Whenever we make our kids stand out through our choices we better be sure that what we are doing it for is really in their best interest.  I imagine the parents believe the pros of not revealing the childs sex outweigh the negatives.  I would not make the same call - but I am not Storms parents.  

This especially rings true for me. I do get frustrated when people call seemingly new (to them) choices "experiments". I feel that it's an effort to legitimize an otherwise perfectly fine parenting choice that just makes you have to think differently than you are comfortable with. In reality, parents are making all kinds of important (albeit, more socially-palatable) choices for their kids. And really, not choosing your child's gender is something that will be over once they are able to articulate how they feel about it. It's a choice that will be made, and maybe many times over.

Originally Posted by Sourire 
It is unfortunate that the choice to raise a gender neutral child is much more "fringe" than the choice to raise a super girly girl who must always wear pink because I think both of these choices are equally extreme and parents who make the two choices should be treated in the same way!

I think that when we consider where we are on the spectrum, we have to go beyond what's culturally appropriate. Our every-day world is small. If I only heard people count up to 10 over and over again, the number 11 or 15 seem outlandish. Know what I mean? In our culture, we're just so used to confining ourselves and each other in terms of a hard-lined gender binary, but that's not the case everywhere in the world, and everywhere throughout history. When you open up to the idea that there's more to the spectrum than we're used to, and that the spectrum isn't linear, maybe allowing your child to choose their gender identity really no longer appears all that "extreme". It's not a pole of some finite line. In our culture, sure. But inherently? No.

I do agree, however, that pretty extreme, oppressive views of gender tend to be accepted without qualm, because they appear more frequently on our radar. People are more comfortable with sex and gender oppression than they are with sex and gender liberty. That's just the society we live in, unfortunately, but I don't intend to succumb to it. I intend to stand up against it.

Originally Posted by serenbat 

it was my DH that would not tell anyone what the sex was prior to birth and it is he that will not correct a stranger (I am more likely too and most times they are not paying attention anyway!!!) - it was my DH that requested gender neutral items and really is pushing this ------- he hates the way males are treated in US society.

That's amazing of your DH. I definitely feel that men and boys (and, therefore, all assumed male-bodied people)  tend to be deprived of the kind of nurturing and support that all children and people deserve, and that is an act of violence. As a feminist, I also strongly believe that people of all sexes/genders are effected by this as this cycle of violence is perpetuated, largely by cis men, who are often privileged in terms of power and under-nourished in terms of physical familial affection, understanding and love. Cis men need to use their privileges to speak up and act out against patriarchy and oppression, as opposed to taking their taught-aggressions out on those who have less power than they do, or else the cycle of violence will continue.

For the record:

I am not opposed, by any means, to raising children as "girls" or "boys", according to their female/male birth-genitalia IF we are ready to be open or accepting and unconditionally supportive of their child's potential queer/trans presentations or identities in the future. I respect the parents' choice in early childhood. Especially since it can be so hard to face question after question. I have many a radical friend who has chosen to do so, while still actively working against the status quo and gender binary, and having real, productive conversations about the challenges and oppressions that come with that binary. As of yet, I have not made a decision as to whether I will give my child(ren) the pronouns that their genitalia would imply, although I am leaning towards creating an affectionate, one-syllable nick-name/pronoun for my child and asking my family and community members to use it when refering to them.

[rubidoux]

Originally Posted by scottishmommy 

Originally Posted by BeckyBird 

I think the ultimate helicopter parent is the one who protects their child from gender identity!

I don't know.  I think the over-genderizing we're doing in this culture (I'm in the US) can be very damaging in ways we probably will never know.  But I suppose it would be hard to convince men to go to war if we didn't teach them to idealize it as little boys...  and all those other fun childhood lessons.  

[habitat]

Originally Posted by APToddlerMama 

The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't have a clue.  You say your partner "hates how males are treated" in our society.  And you feel there are negative comments directed at your son also solely based on him being male.  If you really believe that (which I do not as I think an equal or great number or people would feel females are subject to much more gender negativity) then why don't you work to *change* those stereotypes and biases that you feel will have a negative impact on your son rather than hide his sex?

She and her DH are working to change those stereotypes, simply by seeing their child as a child and not as a gender or a penis. And they are asking others to do the same. They couldn't possibly do anything more powerful than that.

Also, societal negativity and deprivation of emotional support towards men perpetuates and instigates male violence against women and queer folx. It is important to address that this is a dangerous cycle. It's neither the chicken or the egg, but they intend to do their part in stopping male-directed violence towards their son, which I think is absolutely incredible.

[starling&diesel]

Hmm.  Lots to think about.  The parents in the article seem to have an 'agenda,' which is -- I think -- why their approach is rubbing me the wrong way.  Ultimately though, we all have various agendas when it comes to our families, so I fully support them in this particular adventure.  The more power to them! 

My DP is genderqueer, so we have all kinds of discussion on a regular basis about gender and genitals and all that each entail when it comes to raising children.  DP is often read as male, actually most often read as male, so we're already a household that bucks the status quo.  When it came to our first child, we didn't find out what was between the legs until she was born and the world decided that she was a girl, along with a deluge of gifts of the pink variety, even though we'd collected a layette of gender-neutral items.  We're so thankful for hand-me-downs and gifts from family, that we've ended up putting her in way more 'girly' clothes than I would've liked. 

We just found out today that we're having a boy.  I'm curious to see what people do with this information.  I'm curious to see what WE'LL do with this information.  I'm thankful that a seemingly straight couple is taking on the gender war, because I'm not sure that I want to do it as a couple of queer parents, which makes people think that we're 'making' our kids queer. 

I have questions of myself ... will I cut this boy-child's hair when the only reason I haven't cut dd's hair is because I love that her hair is the hair that she was born with?

Will I encourage 'boy' play?  Will I make assumptions about his personality?  His interests? 

Interesting discussion ... thank you!