Yes Ma'am, No Sir, Yeah, Whatever - Are you raising polite children? - Page 3

[vtechmom]

We are pretty big sticklers for manners here and that's in the apparently manner-less northeast, at least from what I've seen posted.  I grew up right where I live now, in NJ in NYC suburbs, and I most definitely did not call adults only by their first names.  When I received mail as a child it was addressed to Miss, or if it was for my younger brother it was Master, until we became teenagers and it changed to Miss and Mr.

I do insist on "Please, Thank You, Excuse Me, etc..."  We also do not tolerate any type of potty humor at the table, the kids must ask to be excused after we are done eating dinner, and almost all adults get some type of honorific.  The only two adults that my children call by their first name are their stepfather and stepmother.  Now, it's not usually Ma'am, or Sir, generally it's Mrs., Ms., Mr., or for close family friends an honorary Uncle or Aunt, and in one case because of a joke they picked up on as toddlers they have an "Uncle Television" (he works in TV).

I don't believe that using titles is solely some form of repressive age-based hierarchy.  I work with veterinarians, of which some new grads are younger than I am, I can't imagine for a second referring to them as anything but Dr. So-and-so.  In some cases we are friends outside of work and at that time I'll use their first name, but if we are at work, whether there are other people around to hear or not, they are called Dr.  I will also use Ms. or Mr. with another adult until invited to do otherwise (which might be as soon as the person introduces themselves and uses a first name for a casual encounter). 

I'm having trouble explaining this, I see a title as showing respect and I don't believe that anyone needs to "earn" my, or my children's, respect.  I feel we are all entitled to automatic respect on the basis of just being human.  I can lose respect for a person, but my default is to respect someone and to me, and my children, showing respect includes using proper titles.

[treeoflife3]

I model polite behavior... saying please and thank you, excuse me... and kiddo will do the same.  She even has started pretend sneezing and saying 'bless you' afterwards.

However, I do not expect her to say 'sir' or 'ma'am' nor do I expect her to call adults mr/ms [first or last name] unless that is how they like to be referred to.  I HATE being called ma'am and don't find it any more polite than other ways of phrasing the same thing and I want to be called by my first name, I'm even okay with a nickname... I am not Mrs. anything.  I find it rude when parents expect their kids to call me Mrs. name when I do NOT like it.

I also don't force apologies.  I still vividly remember an incident that happened in second grade where a kid did something to me and the teachers forced us to stand face to face so they could apologize.  I couldn't help but think that the kid WASN'T sorry so all the teachers were doing was making that kid annoyed and making me really uncomfortable having to face them and wait for an apology I knew they didn't mean.  Of course later the kid DID tell me they weren't sorry and still was mean to me throughout the year.

Rather than forcing my child to apologize, I give her the opportunity to apologize and simply expect her to discontinue mean/rude things.  She doesn't have to feel sorry for what she did, but she also can't do it again.

as for thank you notes?  I hate those.  I think they are completely pointless and a waste of paper since I doubt most people save them.  If the gift was received in front of the receiver, I think a thank you right then is sufficient.  If it was opened away from the giver, then I think a call, or even better, a visit that includes a thank you for the gift is more personal and kinder.  I don't just want a note saying thanks for what I gave someone... I'd love to talk to them and about more than just what I gave them.  I would feel differently however if sending letters was a normal thing between giver and receiver or if calling/visiting weren't possible due to living really far away and the cost of doing either.

We don't ban any topics at the dinner table... dinner time is family time and as our kids get older, it might be the only time during week days where we really get quality time with them.  I know growing up, dinner time was when we really got all the good quality sex talks.  I'd hate to take away my children's chances at talking to me about anything they feel the need to share with me simply because we are eating.  However, I also teach that there are places where certain topics aren't okay, but that doesn't necessarily have to do with eating.  you just have to know your audience.

Ultimately, I think being polite has more to do with tone of voice and empathy/consciousness for those around you than the specific words you speak.

[SuburbanHippie]

Originally Posted by vtechmom 

I don't believe that using titles is solely some form of repressive age-based hierarchy.  I work with veterinarians, of which some new grads are younger than I am, I can't imagine for a second referring to them as anything but Dr. So-and-so. 

I think using "Dr." is respectful because they earned that title through a lot of expensive schooling and hard work.  I don't feel like using ma'am or sir is quite the same.  Just because you happened to be born before me doesn't mean that I owe you something extra that I don't owe others younger than me. 

On a semi-related note about titles, I actually have a little bit of an issue with Mrs/Miss/Ms.  I think it's a little obnoxious that I have to choose a title that tells the world my marriage status.  It is reminiscent of when women were men's property.  You had to lay it all out there at the time you met so the man knew if you were already taken.  It just rubs me the wrong way.  I just want to be me.  Call me by my first name, but don't throw an otherwise useless, sexist title in because you think it's going to show me respect.  IMO, it shows me the opposite.

[MJB]

My kids say please, thank you, and excuse me. They call adults Mr./Ms. lastname unless the adult tells them otherwise (which most of our friends do--we're first name people). We are working on table manners, especially napkin use and chewing with their mouths closed. We've really buckled down lately and are seeing improvements. 

With my 10 mo. old I'm just trying to get her to ask for more food rather than banging on the table. Banging on the table is so much more fun, though! 

[psconlon]

Raising gentlemen - yes!  My DH was the first person to ever thank me for doing something simple that I didn't even think twice about.  It struck me because I didn't realize how unusual it was for someone to do that until he did!  A general respect for others is what it all manners come down to.  The particular words used can be meaningless if it's not sincere.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Maiasaura 

I have not read any of the replies yet. But yes. I am trying to raise my ds with uber-manners, and I think we HAVE loosened up on teaching etiquette, and it HAS changed with the times, and I think that's sad. It is ALWAYS necessary to be mannerly because that means considering the feelings of others, and that is part of getting along with our fellow humans. Nix manners, nix etiquette, and we nix caring just a tad more each and every time we are lax.

Do you have a shred of evidence for this? I've definitely met people who have good formal manners/etiquette, and also consider the feelings of others. I've also met people who have very poor formal manners/etiquette and consider the feelings of others, and people who have very good formal manners/etiquette, yet don't consider the feelings of others at all. One of the reasons I'm as sour as I am on the whole subject is that the most "mannerly" people I met for most of my formative years were also unfeeling, uncaring and inconsiderate. They had manners, by the book, but they had no grasp at all of the underlying concept of consideration for others. And, yes - I've also met people who lack both formal manners and consideration for others, but it's not even close to being a one-one relationship.

Oh - and a lot of what we call etiquette is, imo, far more rooted in European class considerations than it's ever been in the idea of consideration for others. A lot of it has roots in making sure that everyone knows their "proper place" in society, with particular emphasis on acknowledging one's "superiors". I think that's one of the reasons why children saying "sir" and "ma'am" to adults has died out in some place (eg. here).

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Tonia Starr 

In the raising of five boys....and in my past experience with dating myfair share of men who were less than.....gentlemen....well, I really want to raise my boys to be gentlemen.To give their seats to a lady,to open doors for girls, to say yes mam/sir and no mam/sir, to be aware of table manners. To me, its a pretty important issue. especially because down the line I hope they bcome involved in relationships with girls who are youg ladies and EXPECT a man to be a gentle men. I dont want my boys to attract the hoochie type...lol ;)

Umm...wow. So, if a woman doesn't want her door opened or her chair held out, she's a "hoochie type"? Nice.

Personally, I hate having my freaking chair held out for me. It's awkward and makes it more difficult to seat myself. It would also make no sense for dh to hold doors for me, as I'm the driver in our family and I'm usually in my seat, checking my mirrors, lights, etc. while he's finishing up with making sure the kids are all belted in and whatever we need for whatever we're going is in the car. I don't have a big issues with someone holding the car door for me, but it doesn't actually help me in any way. I don't understand why it's considered to be such a key courtesy to some people.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by peaceful_mama 

Oh and, LOL, thanks to kindergarten I think, I have had to teach another wonderful bit of etiquette---appropriate dinner conversation does not include the words "butt", "fart" or references to anything that belongs in the bathroom. 

It's not because of kindergarten. It's a phase most kids go through, to varying degrees. DS1 wasn't really bad, and he went to public school. DS2 is awful (thinks anything involving the words "penis", "butt" or "fart" is the height of humour), and he's homeschooled. DD1 was pretty bad for a while, but she seems to be outgrowing it now. She's also homeschooling.

[meemee]

yes and no. i mean who doesnt want a child to be respectful of others. but i want her to pick up signs of respectfulness she sees around her because we are involved with different cultures where i live. 

i wanted her to learn politeness by watching people around - not by me pointing things out. she said her first garbled thankyou when she was 9 months old . (shamefull clueless mama i was i totally missed that, till the receiver and another friend pointed it out to me) she picked it up pretty well on her own. 

what i HAVE told her is i dont expect politeness towards me. with me she can say ty when she feels like it not every. single. time. i also expect no sorry's. instead i expect some explanation or reaction like ooops i didnt mean to do that or oh no that wont happen again. 

people have always commented on what a polite child she is. right from when she was a toddler. however i have never seen anyone here use sir, ma'am. i have never used it and neither has dd.

because i have not guided her on this she knows to look at others to see what they do. so for instance when she is with grandparents of her ethiopian friend during playgroup she knows to not mouth off with his gparents which she normally tends to do.  its actually been a great learning lesson to her that sometimes silence is best even when she knows differently. 

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by vtechmom 

We are pretty big sticklers for manners here and that's in the apparently manner-less northeast, at least from what I've seen posted.  I grew up right where I live now, in NJ in NYC suburbs, and I most definitely did not call adults only by their first names.  When I received mail as a child it was addressed to Miss, or if it was for my younger brother it was Master, until we became teenagers and it changed to Miss and Mr.

I do insist on "Please, Thank You, Excuse Me, etc..."  We also do not tolerate any type of potty humor at the table, the kids must ask to be excused after we are done eating dinner, and almost all adults get some type of honorific.  The only two adults that my children call by their first name are their stepfather and stepmother.  Now, it's not usually Ma'am, or Sir, generally it's Mrs., Ms., Mr., or for close family friends an honorary Uncle or Aunt, and in one case because of a joke they picked up on as toddlers they have an "Uncle Television" (he works in TV).

I don't believe that using titles is solely some form of repressive age-based hierarchy.  I work with veterinarians, of which some new grads are younger than I am, I can't imagine for a second referring to them as anything but Dr. So-and-so.  In some cases we are friends outside of work and at that time I'll use their first name, but if we are at work, whether there are other people around to hear or not, they are called Dr.  I will also use Ms. or Mr. with another adult until invited to do otherwise (which might be as soon as the person introduces themselves and uses a first name for a casual encounter). 

I'm having trouble explaining this, I see a title as showing respect and I don't believe that anyone needs to "earn" my, or my children's, respect.  I feel we are all entitled to automatic respect on the basis of just being human.  I can lose respect for a person, but my default is to respect someone and to me, and my children, showing respect includes using proper titles.

I get what you're saying here, but ime, most people who insist that children use titles, including "sir" and "ma'am", do not use any kind of title in return. I don't mind if people expect my kids to use "Mr./Ms. Last Name", and also call my kids "Master/Miss Last Name" (or even first name, maybe). But, I've met very, very few people who use titles for children, including those who expect children to use titles for adults. In that case, the respect is all flowing one way - from the child to the adult. I have an issue with that.

That said, I don't like titles very much. I use them when I'm socially obligated to, but that doesn't mean I'm showing respect for that person. Oddly enough, most of the people I've used titles for in my life are people I don't have very much respect for at all. They're not about respect to me. They're about distance. (It also clicked in my head on reading your post that my GP's office staff use his first name when talking to him in the office. This also applies to his wife and partner in practice. The staff only refer to them as "Dr. So-and-So" when talking about them in the third person, to patients, labs, etc.)
 

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by treeoflife3 

I model polite behavior... saying please and thank you, excuse me... and kiddo will do the same.  She even has started pretend sneezing and saying 'bless you' afterwards.

However, I do not expect her to say 'sir' or 'ma'am' nor do I expect her to call adults mr/ms [first or last name] unless that is how they like to be referred to.  I HATE being called ma'am and don't find it any more polite than other ways of phrasing the same thing and I want to be called by my first name, I'm even okay with a nickname... I am not Mrs. anything.  I find it rude when parents expect their kids to call me Mrs. name when I do NOT like it.

This!

I also don't force apologies.  I still vividly remember an incident that happened in second grade where a kid did something to me and the teachers forced us to stand face to face so they could apologize.  I couldn't help but think that the kid WASN'T sorry so all the teachers were doing was making that kid annoyed and making me really uncomfortable having to face them and wait for an apology I knew they didn't mean.  Of course later the kid DID tell me they weren't sorry and still was mean to me throughout the year.

Rather than forcing my child to apologize, I give her the opportunity to apologize and simply expect her to discontinue mean/rude things.  She doesn't have to feel sorry for what she did, but she also can't do it again.

I was the recipient of multiple forced apologies in school (got bullied a lot), and that's where I learned to hate them so much. IME, nobody really cares if it makes the injured party feel worse, though. As long as the forms of consideration, respect and manners are performed correctly, it doesn't matter if people feel worse for it. With my kids, it's weird. DD1 has a really, really, really hard time apologizing. She feels put on the spot, and her shyness (or social anxiety or whatever one wants to call it - I am/was shy, and am okay with the word, but I realize many people dislike it) acts up and she just won't talk - it's getting better, but she struggles with it. However, she also really feels bad and will very rarely ever do the same thing again. DS2 will apologize at the drop of a hat, and usually even mean it. He feels really bad for whatever he did...but he's also got major issues with understanding cause and effect, very little impulse control and no sense of past and future. So, he could easily do the same thing again an hour later. (We're starting the process to have him assessed, as we believe there are developmental issues of some kind at play - he's a really, really sweet kid, but...wow.) So, again - I look at apologies and think "so?". DS2 will make a sincere apology and repeat the behaviour. DD1 won't apologize, or will do so grudgingly (we've been pointing out that an apology helps the injured party understand that the perpetrator knows they've done something wrong)...but won't repeat the behaviour. It's all very frustrating.

as for thank you notes?  I hate those.  I think they are completely pointless and a waste of paper since I doubt most people save them.  If the gift was received in front of the receiver, I think a thank you right then is sufficient.  If it was opened away from the giver, then I think a call, or even better, a visit that includes a thank you for the gift is more personal and kinder.  I don't just want a note saying thanks for what I gave someone... I'd love to talk to them and about more than just what I gave them.  I would feel differently however if sending letters was a normal thing between giver and receiver or if calling/visiting weren't possible due to living really far away and the cost of doing either.

Yeah - I don't hate them, but I don't care about them, either. I think it's really, really rude to just not acknowledge a gift, but I see no superiority to a note over a call, email or visit. Thank you notes, unless they're something really out of the ordinary, always feel as if someone has checked off a list item.

We don't ban any topics at the dinner table... dinner time is family time and as our kids get older, it might be the only time during week days where we really get quality time with them.  I know growing up, dinner time was when we really got all the good quality sex talks.  I'd hate to take away my children's chances at talking to me about anything they feel the need to share with me simply because we are eating.  However, I also teach that there are places where certain topics aren't okay, but that doesn't necessarily have to do with eating.  you just have to know your audience.

We're similar. Even the potty humour thing...we tend to put our feet down, but it's mostly because I have a "thing" about that kind of stuff. I'm kind of a priss, and I just can't listen to it. So, the kids aren't to go on about that kind of thing, but it's explained that it drives me nuts, and I'd like to enjoy my meal, not as the table being some kind of special zone. We teach them more formal table manners, but they're not expected to use most of them at home - they need them for visiting and restaurants and such. DH does expect them to ask to excuse themselves, which grates on my last nerve, but it's important to him, so I decided a long time ago to let that one go. ut, yeah - I just don't get putting so many arbitrary limits on family time.

Ultimately, I think being polite has more to do with tone of voice and empathy/consciousness for those around you than the specific words you speak.

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by Tonia Starr 

In the raising of five boys....and in my past experience with dating myfair share of men who were less than.....gentlemen....well, I really want to raise my boys to be gentlemen.To give their seats to a lady,to open doors for girls, to say yes mam/sir and no mam/sir, to be aware of table manners. To me, its a pretty important issue. especially because down the line I hope they bcome involved in relationships with girls who are youg ladies and EXPECT a man to be a gentle men. I dont want my boys to attract the hoochie type...lol

That being said, there are certain adults in their life whom they are close to and they are allowed to be on a first name basis with them but only as a "Mr Adam" or "Miss Lucy" type of way. There is still a diferentiation in the level of respect between kids/adults.

I see kids so often speaking utterly disrespectfully to their parents or teachers, with a sneer on their face and a mocking challenging tone to their words, espeially in the neighborhood we live in unfortunatly.So, it would be very easy for my boys to see that attitude every day (our next door neighbors 9 year old cusses at his parents and yells at thewhen they tell him its time to come in, etc) so I make it a pretty big issue.

That's obnoxious. Ill be you are going to make such and AWESOME mother in law.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

I wont teach ma'am or sir, but my 14 month old says please and thank you. I dont want a demanding brat who cant stop to say thank you after she is given something she asked for. I cant stand it when kids say "gimmie that orange." grab it, and dont even say thank you. Or kids who just say "I want blah blah NOW" and their parents just give it to them, no please or thank you. It is so rude.

 

I don't think please or thank you would make either of those polite. "Gimmie that orange please"  and "I want blah blah NOW please" are just as rude. What I can't stand are people who think certain words make something automatically polite! 

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

Umm...wow. So, if a woman doesn't want her door opened or her chair held out, she's a "hoochie type"? Nice.

Personally, I hate having my freaking chair held out for me. It's awkward and makes it more difficult to seat myself. It would also make no sense for dh to hold doors for me, as I'm the driver in our family and I'm usually in my seat, checking my mirrors, lights, etc. while he's finishing up with making sure the kids are all belted in and whatever we need for whatever we're going is in the car. I don't have a big issues with someone holding the car door for me, but it doesn't actually help me in any way. I don't understand why it's considered to be such a key courtesy to some people.

Yeah, it bugs me that in order to be a "gentleman" a guy has to treat a woman like she's incapable of doing things for her self. When it comes to cars, you open your own door unless you really are physically incapable, if it's a building you hold the door for whom ever is behind you no matter their gender or yours. You give up your seat to pregnant women, people with disabilities, the elderly, or someone who looks like they need it more than you. And any woman I have met would much rather pull her own chair out than have someone do it for her. And where I come from, a woman who would rather not get this kind of treatment isn't a "hoochie type" she's just a woman who would rather not be treated like a young child.

[AdinaL]

We do a lot of modeling, and we do ask for pleases and thank yous on occasion.  We don't insist on it for everything though.  DD is very polite to people outside the house, so I never worry about that.  The only time we have issues is in how she treats us.  DH and I have become more aware of how we speak to each other (sometimes *we* forget our pleases and thank yous. ) and are careful about how we speak to her as well.  Sometimes we do ask her to "try again" if she has been particularly rude, which happens with all 5 year olds I think. 

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

as for thank you notes?  I hate those.  I think they are completely pointless and a waste of paper since I doubt most people save them.  If the gift was received in front of the receiver, I think a thank you right then is sufficient.  If it was opened away from the giver, then I think a call, or even better, a visit that includes a thank you for the gift is more personal and kinder.  I don't just want a note saying thanks for what I gave someone... I'd love to talk to them and about more than just what I gave them.  I would feel differently however if sending letters was a normal thing between giver and receiver or if calling/visiting weren't possible due to living really far away and the cost of doing either.

Yeah - I don't hate them, but I don't care about them, either. I think it's really, really rude to just not acknowledge a gift, but I see no superiority to a note over a call, email or visit. Thank you notes, unless they're something really out of the ordinary, always feel as if someone has checked off a list item.

Or a to the face "thank you". If you've already said thank you for a gift I've given you, you have no reason to say it again.
 

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad 

I don't think please or thank you would make either of those polite. "Gimmie that orange please"  and "I want blah blah NOW please" are just as rude. What I can't stand are people who think certain words make something automatically polite! 

No, you are right in those situations. I guess I meant that I wish those kids would say "please" instead of "gimme" or "NOW" and also say thank you or thanks when it is received.



I have to completely disagree with the thank you note argument. I thank you notes are important, even if the person was there when you opened a gift. If give someone a gift at a party and they say thank you, half the time they dont remember who gave them what. Thank you notes are a good excuse to sit down and remember exactly who bought you what, and think to yourself about how they came up with that idea for you, how much you must mean to them, ect. Plus, its a great excuse to practice handwriting, which is not something I do very often. Im not offended when I dont get thank you notes, but I know there are a lot of older people who are. To this day, I still get gifts from my aunts and uncles when no other person my age does. Im sure its because Ive always gone out of my way to thank them instead of saying "thanks" and moving on to my next gift.

I dont write thank you notes to get more gifts, but I do believe that people are more inclined to give when they feel like it is truly appreciated.

[Maiasaura]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride Do you have a shred of evidence for this? I've definitely met people who have good formal manners/etiquette, and also consider the feelings of others. I've also met people who have very poor formal manners/etiquette and consider the feelings of others, and people who have very good formal manners/etiquette, yet don't consider the feelings of others at all. One of the reasons I'm as sour as I am on the whole subject is that the most "mannerly" people I met for most of my formative years were also unfeeling, uncaring and inconsiderate. They had manners, by the book, but they had no grasp at all of the underlying concept of consideration for others. And, yes - I've also met people who lack both formal manners and consideration for others, but it's not even close to being a one-one relationship.

Oh - and a lot of what we call etiquette is, imo, far more rooted in European class considerations than it's ever been in the idea of consideration for others. A lot of it has roots in making sure that everyone knows their "proper place" in society, with particular emphasis on acknowledging one's "superiors". I think that's one of the reasons why children saying "sir" and "ma'am" to adults has died out in some place (eg. here).

Nope, no shred at all, except for personal experience I have never had the experiences you have had! My word, I'm sorry. I can't picture someone that displays formal manners and yet is an unfeeling cur. In that case my unmannerly self would probably show right quick! Yowsa!

I am feeling a new thread here on this forum...which is SHOWING respect vs. FEELING respect. I remember when I was a teen and for whatever reason, my mom and I were in a snit, and she yelled at me "You WILL respect me!!!" and I thought "No I won't; you have to earn it. You can't automatically respect someone". So when I became a parent, I thought and thought about this-- and that's where I came to the conclusion that it's a good idea to show respect in many cases, whether you are feeling it or not. Like getting pulled over. If you don't show respect to the cop you will get more than you bargained for! AND you better call hir "officer" while you're at it (I've heard "sir/ma'am" isn't the proper thing to say with cops but I forgot why).

Anyway, I guess what I meant to say (with the sentence you bolded) is it shows consideration for others. Not is consideration for others. But there are plenty of times and places where it would behoove one to show manners. In my personal case, I think it's all the time. Like Patrick Swayze said in Roadhouse: "I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice." I don't think it's ever harmful to always be nice, unless you have to not be.

I LOVE the southern expression "bless your heart" because it can cut like a razor as well as really mean bless your heart. It means any number of things, from the syrupy sweet to the honest blessing to a swear. But in the case of being nasty, that's a perfect example, IMO, of someone showing respect without being outright rude.

Am I making any more sense?

Originally Posted by Storm Bride but ime, most people who insist that children use titles, including "sir" and "ma'am", do not use any kind of title in return. I don't mind if people expect my kids to use "Mr./Ms. Last Name", and also call my kids "Master/Miss Last Name" (or even first name, maybe). But, I've met very, very few people who use titles for children, including those who expect children to use titles for adults. In that case, the respect is all flowing one way - from the child to the adult. I have an issue with that.

Hmm, you know? You're right. And if I'm going to be so oldschool with manners and honorifics, maybe I should start calling kids by a title, too. I shall think about it

Originally Posted by vtechmom 

We are pretty big sticklers for manners here and that's in the apparently manner-less northeast, at least from what I've seen posted.  I grew up right where I live now, in NJ in NYC suburbs, and I most definitely did not call adults only by their first names.  When I received mail as a child it was addressed to Miss, or if it was for my younger brother it was Master, until we became teenagers and it changed to Miss and Mr.

I do insist on "Please, Thank You, Excuse Me, etc..."  We also do not tolerate any type of potty humor at the table, the kids must ask to be excused after we are done eating dinner, and almost all adults get some type of honorific.  The only two adults that my children call by their first name are their stepfather and stepmother.  Now, it's not usually Ma'am, or Sir, generally it's Mrs., Ms., Mr., or for close family friends an honorary Uncle or Aunt, and in one case because of a joke they picked up on as toddlers they have an "Uncle Television" (he works in TV).

I don't believe that using titles is solely some form of repressive age-based hierarchy.  I work with veterinarians, of which some new grads are younger than I am, I can't imagine for a second referring to them as anything but Dr. So-and-so.  In some cases we are friends outside of work and at that time I'll use their first name, but if we are at work, whether there are other people around to hear or not, they are called Dr.  I will also use Ms. or Mr. with another adult until invited to do otherwise (which might be as soon as the person introduces themselves and uses a first name for a casual encounter). 

I'm having trouble explaining this, I see a title as showing respect and I don't believe that anyone needs to "earn" my, or my children's, respect.  I feel we are all entitled to automatic respect on the basis of just being human.  I can lose respect for a person, but my default is to respect someone and to me, and my children, showing respect includes using proper titles.

I just love this entire post
 

Originally Posted by SuburbanHippie On a semi-related note about titles, I actually have a little bit of an issue with Mrs/Miss/Ms.  I think it's a little obnoxious that I have to choose a title that tells the world my marriage status.  It is reminiscent of when women were men's property.  You had to lay it all out there at the time you met so the man knew if you were already taken.  It just rubs me the wrong way.  I just want to be me.  Call me by my first name, but don't throw an otherwise useless, sexist title in because you think it's going to show me respect.  IMO, it shows me the opposite.

Gawd, I hate forums...you can't express real feelings and they always get misunderstood. That said...I'm getting the feeling you must be pretty young in comparison to me? I remember when "Ms." came out, and the whole purpose of it was to bash the idea of titles that told a woman's marital status. "Ms" is supposed to be...hmm...marriage-neutral? It's ANTI sexist. I think, as a matter of fact, it may have started with Gloria Steinem and Ms. magazine, but I could be wrong. Off to google now...

I do have a thing about thank-you notes, though. Hand written ones. At least, to my relatives and friends of relatives, who are either all older than me or raised the same as me. Other people not so much, like local friends and what-not. I do make ds do them for his buds that come to birthday parties and give him gifts, because we're not even good acquaintances with those people, let alone friends, and I think there should be more formality in that kind of relationship.

I guess I'm just old fashioned with manners, but I think it's terribly sad that they've gone by the wayside. And I think the world is a worse place for it.

ETA: I'm from northern NJ, too, though I've lived in the south a long time. I have to say, I hate the honorary "Aunt" and "Uncle". I don't know why. It sounds pedophilic to me. I like the way they do here, Mr./Ms. First Name. Especially for close family friends and your family doesn't use First Names Only for adults. My brother lives up north, has all his life, and recently fell into this dilemma. He hated his kids calling his wife's best friend by her first name, yet she was too close to the family for Ms.Last Name. I suggested Ms. First Name. I have no idea what they ever decided on! His girls are all grown up, now, so it probably IS just First Name now.
 

Edited by Maiasaura - 5/25/11 at 2:26pm

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by Maiasaura 

Nope, no shred at all, except for personal experience I have never had the experiences you have had! My word, I'm sorry. I can't picture someone that displays formal manners and yet is an unfeeling cur. In that case my unmannerly self would probably show right quick! Yowsa!

I am feeling a new thread here on this forum...which is SHOWING respect vs. FEELING respect. I remember when I was a teen and for whatever reason, my mom and I were in a snit, and she yelled at me "You WILL respect me!!!" and I thought "No I won't; you have to earn it. You can't automatically respect someone". So when I became a parent, I thought and thought about this-- and that's where I came to the conclusion that it's a good idea to show respect in many cases, whether you are feeling it or not. Like getting pulled over. If you don't show respect to the cop you will get more than you bargained for! AND you better call hir "officer" while you're at it (I've heard "sir/ma'am" isn't the proper thing to say with cops but I forgot why).

Anyway, I guess what I meant to say (with the sentence you bolded) is it shows consideration for others. Not is consideration for others. But there are plenty of times and places where it would behoove one to show manners. In my personal case, I think it's all the time. Like Patrick Swayze said in Roadhouse: "I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice." I don't think it's ever harmful to always be nice, unless you have to not be.

I LOVE the southern expression "bless your heart" because it can cut like a razor as well as really mean bless your heart. It means any number of things, from the syrupy sweet to the honest blessing to a swear. But in the case of being nasty, that's a perfect example, IMO, of someone showing respect without being outright rude.

Am I making any more sense?

Hmm, you know? You're right. And if I'm going to be so oldschool with manners and honorifics, maybe I should start calling kids by a title, too. I shall think about it

I just love this entire post
 

Gawd, I hate forums...you can't express real feelings and they always get misunderstood. That said...I'm getting the feeling you must be pretty young in comparison to me? I remember when "Ms." came out, and the whole purpose of it was to bash the idea of titles that told a woman's marital status. "Ms" is supposed to be...hmm...marriage-neutral? It's ANTI sexist. I think, as a matter of fact, it may have started with Gloria Steinem and Ms. magazine, but I could be wrong. Off to google now...

I do have a thing about thank-you notes, though. Hand written ones. At least, to my relatives and friends of relatives, who are either all older than me or raised the same as me. Other people not so much, like local friends and what-not. I do make ds do them for his buds that come to birthday parties and give him gifts, because we're not even good acquaintances with those people, let alone friends, and I think there should be more formality in that kind of relationship.

I guess I'm just old fashioned with manners, but I think it's terribly sad that they've gone by the wayside. And I think the world is a worse place for it.
 

I cant cut the quote, sorry. Its all code-y and Im afraid Ill mess it up.

RE: Ms.

In the back asswards world I grew up in Ms. typically referred to a *gasp* woman of divorce *gasp*
Miss= young unmarried lady
Mrs. = married lady
Ms. = divorced lady

Ive never understood it.

[treeoflife3]

Originally Posted by Maiasaura 

Nope, no shred at all, except for personal experience I have never had the experiences you have had! My word, I'm sorry. I can't picture someone that displays formal manners and yet is an unfeeling cur. In that case my unmannerly self would probably show right quick! Yowsa!

I am feeling a new thread here on this forum...which is SHOWING respect vs. FEELING respect. I remember when I was a teen and for whatever reason, my mom and I were in a snit, and she yelled at me "You WILL respect me!!!" and I thought "No I won't; you have to earn it. You can't automatically respect someone". So when I became a parent, I thought and thought about this-- and that's where I came to the conclusion that it's a good idea to show respect in many cases, whether you are feeling it or not. Like getting pulled over. If you don't show respect to the cop you will get more than you bargained for! AND you better call hir "officer" while you're at it (I've heard "sir/ma'am" isn't the proper thing to say with cops but I forgot why).

Anyway, I guess what I meant to say (with the sentence you bolded) is it shows consideration for others. Not is consideration for others. But there are plenty of times and places where it would behoove one to show manners. In my personal case, I think it's all the time. Like Patrick Swayze said in Roadhouse: "I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice." I don't think it's ever harmful to always be nice, unless you have to not be.

I LOVE the southern expression "bless your heart" because it can cut like a razor as well as really mean bless your heart. It means any number of things, from the syrupy sweet to the honest blessing to a swear. But in the case of being nasty, that's a perfect example, IMO, of someone showing respect without being outright rude.

Am I making any more sense?

Hmm, you know? You're right. And if I'm going to be so oldschool with manners and honorifics, maybe I should start calling kids by a title, too. I shall think about it

I just love this entire post
 

Gawd, I hate forums...you can't express real feelings and they always get misunderstood. That said...I'm getting the feeling you must be pretty young in comparison to me? I remember when "Ms." came out, and the whole purpose of it was to bash the idea of titles that told a woman's marital status. "Ms" is supposed to be...hmm...marriage-neutral? It's ANTI sexist. I think, as a matter of fact, it may have started with Gloria Steinem and Ms. magazine, but I could be wrong. Off to google now...

I do have a thing about thank-you notes, though. Hand written ones. At least, to my relatives and friends of relatives, who are either all older than me or raised the same as me. Other people not so much, like local friends and what-not. I do make ds do them for his buds that come to birthday parties and give him gifts, because we're not even good acquaintances with those people, let alone friends, and I think there should be more formality in that kind of relationship.

I guess I'm just old fashioned with manners, but I think it's terribly sad that they've gone by the wayside. And I think the world is a worse place for it.

ETA: I'm from northern NJ, too, though I've lived in the south a long time. I have to say, I hate the honorary "Aunt" and "Uncle". I don't know why. It sounds pedophilic to me. I like the way they do here, Mr./Ms. First Name. Especially for close family friends and your family doesn't use First Names Only for adults. My brother lives up north, has all his life, and recently fell into this dilemma. He hated his kids calling his wife's best friend by her first name, yet she was too close to the family for Ms.Last Name. I suggested Ms. First Name. I have no idea what they ever decided on! His girls are all grown up, now, so it probably IS just First Name now.
 

see and I think that a lot of the 'manners' people complain are going away aren't necessarily respectful.  As has been pointed out, you can be respectful without saying please just as much as you can be disrespectful while saying it.  You can be very respectful calling an adult something besides "ma'am" or "sir" but you can be really rude by using those terms.  Even things like placing your napkin in your lap... just because a napkin is in your lap, it doesn't mean eating in a way that makes a big mess is automatically okay, nor does it mean you'll be more likely to use the napkin to wipe your hands just because it is in your lap rather than on the table next to your plate.

I think it is extremely rude, obnoxious, and very disrespectful to say 'bless your heart' in any way that isn't an honest blessing.  I don't think it shows respect to say it scathingly and I DO think it is outright rude.  It is the type of sarcasm that divides people and makes them less likely to want to associate with each other.

I don't think the world is a worse place because men don't pull chairs out for women (I hate that too, I'm capable and I don't want to be treated like a small child.) nor because people don't put napkins in their laps or remember to say please every single time they ask for something.  Rather, I think we live in a world where people aren't taught to have tact and compassion for people they disagree with or kindness for people who do or give things to them.  I don't even think people are necessarily more rude, people are just rude in a way now that is harder to ignore.  It is easy to ignore rudeness when someone says 'bless your heart ma'am' even though they are clearly saying it with hate because the line itself isn't rude without the rude intention behind it.  It is harder to ignore rudeness when someone just says what they are ACTUALLY thinking when they say 'bless your heart, ma'am.'

I prefer to teach my daughter that it really doesn't matter what she says.. it is about HOW she says it.  She can say please til she is blue in the face and that doesn't mean her behavior is okay.  I also want to teach her how to be honest and stand up for herself while still being able to use tact and respect.  Respect isn't only specific words like please and thank you, it is how to present the words you use.  Everyone should be able to speak their mind and share their feelings, but not at the expense of other people's feelings.  I shouldn't HAVE to say 'bless your heart' rather than what I am really thinking because I should be able to stand up for myself if I want to say something at all, but I also shouldn't say something equally as rude and hurtful either in it's place just so I can stand up for myself.

as for thank you notes, I have written them.  It doesn't help me remember any better what was gifted to me as just saying thank you when I open the present, or calling later if the gifter wasn't there to see.  It DOES however annoy me to have to thank the person AGAIN and makes me less thankful for the gift.  I'd rather not receive gifts at all than have to say thank you when I get the gift AND spend time writing out a whole redundant note about it.  However, when we receive gifts for birthdays and christmas in my family, we don't just say 'thanks!' and open the next one.. we usually do comment on the gift itself.  'thanks for the breadmaker grandma!  thats the exact one I wanted.  You'll need to share that recipe you always use with me so I can start using it right away.'  If I'm saying that, why should I also write it down on a piece of paper thats just going to get tossed out anyway?  It is a waste of time and paper.  I can understand the handwriting practice, but my handwriting hasn't changed since I was 10... I don't feel the need to keep practicing at this point.  I don't like to write and I only write thank you notes when I know I have to... I don't think it would make anyone feel too good knowing they only got one because there was no other option and yet social rules say you have to do it anyway.