Textual Changes to the Roman Missal coming First Sunday of Advent - Page 6

[MaJoie]

Come now children can we stop the arguing, please? Didn't Jesus say the world will know we belong to Him by the love we have for each other? One thing that convinced me that I had to be Catholic was the realization that God did not divorce His Bride. He has stood by the Church from the beginning, bringing Her to perfection by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Whatever the errors of the human members of His Church it's up to the Holy Spirit to correct us (when we are willing to listen). God has no intention of abandoning Holy Mother Church.

[Maiasaura]

Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove 

Your attitude is disturbing

Aww. I know I don't post here much, but let's all be civil?

PatienceAndLove, what does your avatar mean, if I may ask?

[PatienceAndLove]

My avatar is the St. Benedict medal.

Here is an explanation:

"Around the margin are the initials of Latin words which form verses supposed to have originated with the holy Father Benedict himself. The English translation is: "Be gone Satan! Suggest not to me thy vain things. The cup thou profferest me is evil; drink thou thy poison." In the angles formed by the arms of the Cross are the letters C.S.P.B., signifying "Cross of the holy Father Benedict." The letters on the Cross itself have this meaning: "May the holy Cross be my light; let not the dragon be my guide."

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I am trying very hard to be civil, but the constant complaints about something the hierarchy has deemed necessary causes me great frustration and sadness.

Edited by PatienceAndLove - 1/10/12 at 3:54pm

[Maiasaura]

Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove My avatar is the St. Benedict medal. Here is an explanation:

I am trying very hard to be civil, but the constant complaints about something the hierarchy has deemed necessary causes me great frustration and sadness.

Thank you for the explanation. I saw something very like it recently which is why I asked.

Frustration is so hard. Especially on the internet. I just didn't want to see things devolve into internet fighting here...it's such a nice board and I am trying to learn I am not, at the moment, Catholic, but I'm...hmm, exploring?

[Trigger]

 It's s discussion and debate forum.  If you're coming to this discussion expecting only absolute agreerment wrapped in rainbows and roses, you're probably in the wrong place.

All of you that love the RRM so much can certainly express your approval and delight on the Catholic thread in the Spirituality forum.  This happens to be the only place where I can express MY opinion and thoughts (as valid as yours, btw) on the matter.

[lilyka]

So, not to beat a dead horse (if people would like to talk about something else please throw out even a mediocore interesting thread because I feel chaty).

anyway my priest and I were talking about this the other day.  he sympathizes with how hard it is to use a different translation.  If he serves with a different jurisdition or even a different parish he may be using a very slightly different translation which he says is really hard to do.

he also thinks however that the changes being made, and how they line up with Easter Orthodox Liturgy is not at all coincidental and is  a move by the Pope to line up more with the EO and move towards reunification.  However small it may be.  That this Pope is making reunification a mission.  which would start with swinging things to a more conservative/traditional place.  Thoughts.....?

[JMJ]

Originally Posted by lilyka 

So, not to beat a dead horse (if people would like to talk about something else please throw out even a mediocore interesting thread because I feel chaty).

anyway my priest and I were talking about this the other day.  he sympathizes with how hard it is to use a different translation.  If he serves with a different jurisdition or even a different parish he may be using a very slightly different translation which he says is really hard to do.

he also thinks however that the changes being made, and how they line up with Easter Orthodox Liturgy is not at all coincidental and is  a move by the Pope to line up more with the EO and move towards reunification.  However small it may be.  That this Pope is making reunification a mission.  which would start with swinging things to a more conservative/traditional place.  Thoughts.....?

I've heard some murmurings to this effect, and I know that working to reunite Christians is high on the pope's priority list. 
What I don't understand is how changing only the English translation accomplishes this?  It's not like the Latin (which is the reference point for the universal Church) has changed to be more in line with the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, and various Eastern Catholic Churches maintain their own liturgies that are much more similar to the Eastern Orthodox liturgy.

[lilyka]

You make a good point.  Saying it in Latin period would go against a general Orthodox principal(?) of bringing the liturgy to the people in their language.  I wonder how they compare in other languages.  I thought it was an interesting point and was wondering f anyone else had seen other hints that this Pope was on a mission of sorts.  I know there have been more talks in the last few years but no real moves towards joining back together or reconciliation.  

[JMJ]

Well, I don't think that we are divided on the issue of bringing the liturgy to the people in their own language at this point.  There are a few small issues of faith (from the Orthodox perspective, at least) that have not been changed, such as our statement in the creed that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son," whereas he proceeds only from the Father in the Orthodox creed.

I do find it interesting, though, that you notice that the translation is more similar to the Orthodox translation.  It makes sense because our reference documents are for the most part the same.  A few months ago, I was driving somewhere and listening to a Catholic radio show that talks about the Eastern Churches, and the guest on the show was making the argument that the new translation had a lot to do with trying to reconcile the Orthodox and Catholic faiths.  I got to where I was going and didn't hear much of his support, but it is interesting for me to hear that someone else notices that too.  I've heard Pope Benedict called "the pope of Christian Unity" a few places (mostly on Catholic radio) because of his attempts to strongly define our beliefs in order to open dialogue with other faiths, so we can discuss where there are really differences and where there are not.  It seems to be the impression of many that he is putting forth a lot of effort to reconcile with separated Christians, and I think that this is most likely to happen with the Orthodox first.  We can pray for that!

[lilyka]

It would be REALLY interesting to here that radio show!

And it is not similar to the Orthodox liturgy.  The parts that were changed are identical.  if you are Orthodox it is impossible to miss.  That's why I was wondering of the mass in ...oh say...French or Spanish was the same as Divine Liturgy on French or Spanish.

and I don't see unity happening.  The Catholic church would have to give up too much (the primacy of the Pope for starters, beliefs on original sin, immaculate conception, how they baptize people, etc  The difference are huge ) and the Orthodox Church is not willing to give up anything.   It is interesting to see efforts being made though.  

[JMJ]

I don't see those Catholic beliefs changing either, but there is an opening in that the Catholic Church has never considered the Orthodox to be "heretical," that is, to have incorrect beliefs in the same way that we consider Protestants to have, only "schismatic," not united.  The issues with the pope are issues that separate us.  The other issues, for whatever reason, have not ever been enough to be declared "heretical," though I understand that from the Orthodox perspective, Catholics are indeed "heretical."

[Trigger]

Originally Posted by Trigger 

 There was a lot of discussion in my workshops over why they didn't simply take out the word "men" in the Creed, and have it state "for us and for our salvation" (which I say, anyway).

...

Many priests in attendance agreed that this would have been the right time to just omit the word "men" from the Creed.

I attended the pastoral installation of one of those priests on Saturday.  When he proclaimed the Creed (by himself, as per the ceremony), he said,

"For us and for our salvation, ..."