Textual Changes to the Roman Missal coming First Sunday of Advent - Page 2

[chfriend]

I'm curious what the announced reason for the changes is. It's been quite a year for me, so I know the changes are coming, but Trigger's link was the first time I've taken a look at them.

Translations of translations get tricky, so there is and will be legitimate debate over the choices of the words.

The wording is closer that that used around Vatican II. I remember that the scholars at that time were relieved about the change in the "descended to hell" because they felt that theologically that was unsound and the translation was not accurate.

I looks like an attempt to bring the east and west closer together in translations.

How does the new missal compare with the Episcopal Book of Common prayer? Does anyone know?

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by moonshoes 

And may I just say thank goodness they will have to take out the Protestant "music" and maybe do something Catholic for a change.

I don't know - I'd take "Come Down O Love Divine" or Jerusalem" or "O God our Help in Ages Past" before "Gather Us In" any day.

[Trigger]

Originally Posted by moonshoes 

And may I just say thank goodness they will have to take out the Protestant "music" and maybe do something Catholic for a change.

 Can you elaborate on this?  I was raised Protestant, and:

1 - What "Protestant 'music' " are you referring to in the Catholic liturgy?  Are you referring to specific liturgical responses/prayers, or just hymns and/or other music that you dislike and consider "UNCatholic" for some reason?  Or is this about clapping during the Gloria again? 

2 - What exactly is wrong with Protestant "music" - and why the quotations?  Do Protestant/general Christian hymns, liturgical responses, and other spiritual songs not fit your definition of "music"?  Our deacon absolutely loves tunes like "The Old Rugged Cross" and "Go Tell it on the Mountain", and always requests that the choir utilize them during Lent and Advent, respectively.  They aren't specifically Catholic hymns, and I'm not nuts about either, but I understand the love some people have for their messages.

3 - Catholic liturgical music is not unlike what I grew up with in the Presbyterian church.  The liturgies are quite similar, actually.

Why such abject scorn for Christian music that doesn't fit your definition of "Catholic"?

[moonshoes]

somebody's in an argumentative mood this morning

The music has nothing to do with the thread, so I won't bother with a reply. I suspect you care less about my feelings about liturgical music and more about my being a traditional Catholic, not a Presbyterian Catholic. meh. whatever.

[Trigger]

Really, moonshoes, you needn't get so worked up and defensive just because I like to discuss this stuff.  This is, after all, a discussion and debate forum.  I like to discuss and debate, yes; and I'm interested in the whys and wherefores of the differing opinions, which is why I enjoy the RS forum so much.  I want to understand why other Catholics think and believe what they do.

Music as a form of worship and prayer is extremely important to me, and I love to experience different kinds of music in liturgy.  Obviously, you have a very narrow spectrum of music that you feel is appropriate for Roman Catholic liturgy - I would like to know exactly what that is, and why.

This

 a Presbyterian Catholic

was just a meanspirited, snarky jab at my personal faith journey, and completely unnecessary.  Honestly, if you were so offended by my questions, and by the discussion of these things to begin with, you needn't have bothered to reply at all.

[lilyka]

Moonshoes, I know exactly what you mean by protestant music.  Its hard to put it into words though.  What do Catholics traditionally use for music?  In the Orthodox church the divide between our liturgical music and protestants is huge.  There simply is no where for other music to creep in (we simply couldn't replace a protestant hymn for one of our hymns.  it would not fit and part of the liturgy would be missing!  I am offended enough when I go to churches that have an organ (and that is as crazy as it gets for instruments) or protestant choir robes. Its just so wrong.   

[Trigger]

Please explain to me the difference between Protestant choir robes and Orthodox/Catholic choir robes?  I am genuinely curious!

I have never been to a Catholic church that doesn't have an organ.  Personally, I prefer piano music, but not all churches have one.  They all seem to have organs, though.

[lilyka]

I am aware that it is quite acceptable in Western churches to have instruments although this was not so in the early Catholic church.  I do not know when instrumental music crept in and if it was controversial or not.  That would indeed be something interesting to study.  But that is why I asked Moonshoes about what traditionally was used in the Roman Catholic liturgy.

The Orthodox church traditionally does not use any instruments.  The use of organs came into fashion (thank goodness still in a very limited fashion) for several reasons.  One was we bought protestant churches that already had them installed (in the case of the parish I went to, the one with the choir robes)  Might as well use them....I say better to leave them but not my call....Another reason was to blend in with American Christianity (as is the case with another somewhat local parish).  I think this is a lousy reason.  I have only been to one church that had Western style choir robes....again it just seemed like a lame attempt to fit in with American protestantism.  Otherwise I have never been to an Orthodox church where the choir wore robes (perhaps cassocks but not modern choir robes) so perhaps this was just a really weird parish.  The whole experience there was uncomfortable and off putting.  At best they are pointless and at worst they are an attempt to make the choir "sparkle" when instead they should be focused on humility and prayer and not preforming.

Since we cannot change the actual songs or rhythms of the chanting, or anything else the organ music (or any other instrument one might try to insert) has to be fit around what is already there.  Thus far this has been a total  EPIC FAIL every where I have been.  Its like trying to fit a grand church organ inot a Metallica concert.  It just doesn't belong.  There is nothing wrong with it if you like that sort of thing (I hate organ music but any other instrument would sound just as bad in this setting)  So the temptation is to make the hymns less Byzantine and more Western in order to make the instrument fit.  Which is a slippery slope....Making it about the instrument or our tastes or what excites our passions rather than about God.  Bad. 

I don't mind listening to protestant music or even singing along on the car radio or whatever but it just does not belong in Divine Liturgy or any other holy service.

[Purple Sage]

You can't even see the choir during the Liturgy at my (Orthodox) church.  They sit up in a balcony in the far back of the nave, and they do not wear robes of any sort.  Also, no instruments.

[chfriend]

Hi moonshoes, I'm not feeling argumentative either and I find myself wondering what hymns specifically you are thinking of. I'm a life long Catholic from before Vatican II and I remember the incredible joy of singing "to everything there is a season" when it was a popular song on the radio in the mid-60's.

I wonder what, if any, hymns are affected by the changes in the Missal...I know the responses have to be re-written, but are the actual "hymns" affected? Are there beloved songs that Catholic people are hoping to hear that they have been missing? Are there songs that will need to be dropped for some reason?

We don't have an organ at our church, but we have piano, harp, drums, flute, guitar, mandolin, and.... as well as a healthy and involved music ministry. Our Music Minister has been known to remind people during the announcements before Mass that Rome *requires* our sung response during Mass, so the congregation does indeed "make a joyful noise."

There was quite a kerfluffle when changes were made after Vatican II. I'll not soon forget the day that Father Murphy refused communion to a woman whose head was uncovered....yup, after the Mass was in English. Arguments over whether the Mass was a sufficient sacrifice if the church was air conditioned (no kidding). Loud arguments about whether the Vatican was overstepping by allowing standing at the altar rail.

Of course, all these arguments over form completely missed the mis-administration going on moving criminal priests around from one parish to the next. If only we'd known, perhaps we'd not have been so distracted.

The changes seem minor, reverting back to more accurate translations in some cases, less accurate in others. Some people will delightedly embrace them, some reluctantly, some not at all. But we'll continue to cling together as a Church family, loving each other in all our differences and foibles.

[Trigger]

I can take organ music or leave it.  Generally, I prefer other instruments for worship music - however, organ music played professionally/really well is really beautiful and uplifting.

As to choir robes and "sparkle", I offer you another viewpoint.  I believe that, rather than making the choir "stand out", they are designed for a purpose much like Catholic school uniforms
 ... to make the choir members blend as a whole, and NOT stand out.  Having said that, I dislike them anyway.  They are typically heavy polyester blends and uncomfortable, esp in summer.
 

Originally Posted by lilyka 

I am aware that it is quite acceptable in Western churches to have instruments although this was not so in the early Catholic church.  I do not know when instrumental music crept in and if it was controversial or not.  That would indeed be something interesting to study.   

Again, what immediately springs to my mind here is the Psalms - the majority of which were specifically written for accompaniment with musical instruments.  The great King David worshipped with great joy and passion - singing, dancing, and praising God with his whole being.  Even his lamentations and pleas for mercy & forgiveness were passionate - when I read those Psalms I can almost see David exhorting the Father with great gestures of genuine sorrow and passion.
 

 I don't mind listening to protestant music or even singing along on the car radio or whatever but it just does not belong in Divine Liturgy or any other holy service.

 From what you've said, it does seem as though it would not work in an Orthodox liturgy.  However, it can and does work in Roman Catholic liturgy - I'll admit that it isn't always done well, but I've seen it both ways and it does work/belong when done properly.

Originally Posted by chfriend 

I wonder what, if any, hymns are affected by the changes in the Missal...I know the responses have to be re-written, but are the actual "hymns" affected? Are there beloved songs that Catholic people are hoping to hear that they have been missing? Are there songs that will need to be dropped for some reason?

Though the liturgical changes will have to be re-written with new music to fit the lyrical response, there is nothing that states that the music itself has to be written in a certain style.

The Missal changes don't affect hymnals/song books - i.e., music that would sung prior to Mass, as the processional, at the offering, during Communion, and as a recessional (though not all churches have a recessional hymn).

I would also like to hear answers to the above bolded.

 all these arguments over form completely missed the mis-administration going on moving criminal priests around from one parish to the next. If only we'd known, perhaps we'd not have been so distracted.

Amen to that, sister.

[Trigger]

Great article.

The Vatican's Tahrir Square?  by Fr. Kevin Kelly

The New Missal imposition is just one instance of the abuse of power in our Church. ... I sense a growing discontent among many very committed Catholics who have a deep love for the church. They feel it is losing touch with the Spirit-inspired vision of Vatican II and its hope for the future. They want to mount a protest against this but there seems no appropriate channel for such protest.

Vatican II placed collegiality at the very heart of church governance. Implied in that teaching is the involvement of all the faithful through collaborative ministry and corresponsibility. 

...  Sadly, these developments in church governance, so central to the renewal of the Church, have never been properly implemented. 

... The forthcoming missal is but a part of a larger pattern of top-down impositions by a central authority that does not consider itself accountable to the larger church. 

... A lot of these problems are related to the way the authority of God is being used to shore up teaching which, at the very least, is open to debate and, in some instances, rejected as inadequate by many theologians and most people in the church trying to be faithful to the spirit of Vatican II. 

[Trigger]

Misguided Missal

From the FAQ:

Was the process for translating faithful to Vatican II’s teachings on collegiality?

No. Vatican II called for less centralism and more decision making by bishops at the local and national level. The liturgy constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium explicitly gives authority for translation to regional bodies of bishops, not the Vatican. But the Vatican has gradually taken this power away, and now claims authority to issue the final version of all vernacular translations. 

What about ecumenism?

Forget it. 

Was there any other way all this could have been done?

Yes! In 1998 the bishops of the English-speaking world approved an entire translation of the missal, after 17 (!) years of collaborative work, public progress reports, and a transparent process. This 1998 text is inclusive of women, in elegant and beautiful English, and faithful to the Latin original – in many ways more accurate than our coming text.

Conservative chant scholar Peter Jeffery said of the document with the new translation rules, “It is particularly embarrassing that all this muscular Christianity comes to us vested and mitered in the most ignorant statement on liturgy ever issued by a modern Vatican congregation.” 

[BMG580]

I've been away for almost a year and I stop back in and see all these familiar names arguing the same positions as they did before.  Trigger: progressive Catholic, Lilyka: Orthodox, Bluegoat: Anglican, moonshoes: trad Catholic, CherryBomb: trad Catholic and so on.  The only one missing is Smokering!

It's been awhile but I think I could have scanned the thread minus usernames and made a pretty good guess of who was posting what.  It is nice that one tiny corner of the internet has some continuity! 

Good to be here again... 

Our parish priests have been discussing the changes in recent homilies and it shouldn't be a difficult transition to make.  

(Formerly known as Charbeau, contributed a lot here during my conversion process in 2008)

Edited by BMG580 - 9/17/11 at 8:31pm

[Trigger]

 Welcome back!  Has it really been that long?!

[JMJ]

I haven't come across it in other places, so could somebody post a link or explain more on the new guidance for music?  I know that the Entrance, Offertory, Communion, etc antiphons are going to be required and that they can be sung as a chant or a hymn, but my parish is saying that they are still allowed to do whatever song they want and then just read the antiphon instead if they want.  I know, I am really far behind at learning what I need to about the new translation.

[Trigger]

Originally Posted by JMJ 

I haven't come across it in other places, so could somebody post a link or explain more on the new guidance for music?  I know that the Entrance, Offertory, Communion, etc antiphons are going to be required and that they can be sung as a chant or a hymn, but my parish is saying that they are still allowed to do whatever song they want and then just read the antiphon instead if they want.  I know, I am really far behind at learning what I need to about the new translation.
 

This doesn't really answer your question, but it's all that the USCCB has on their website, regarding music.

Now that a final text is available, ICEL has prepared original chants that were adapted to the changes in the texts. These were prepared in a format for use by the publishers of the Missal. In addition, publishers of liturgical music are already prepared to offer musical settings for the new texts so that music directors in parishes will be ready to teach other new settings in addition to the chants contained in the Missal. These settings are not to be used for liturgical celebration until the date of implementation.

http://www.icelweb.org/musicfolder/openmusic.php 

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by Trigger 

 Welcome back!  Has it really been that long?!

Hard to believe, but yes, I hadn't posted here since January.  I started homeschooling and got lured away by the WTM love.    

I appreciate these kinds of discussions, I typically disagree with you Trigger but you sure make me think through my own opinions.  This board looks like it has been pretty slow.  We need some new people considering a conversion to a new religion - that always seems to get things hopping around here!   

[JMJ]

Originally Posted by Trigger 

This doesn't really answer your question, but it's all that the USCCB has on their website, regarding music.

http://www.icelweb.org/musicfolder/openmusic.php 

Yes, I'm aware of the new musical settings of the Mass parts, but I hadn't heard of anything regarding "Protestant" music.  I thought all music already had to be approved.  Is there a new GIRM as well?
 

[Trigger]

Originally Posted by JMJ 

Yes, I'm aware of the new musical settings of the Mass parts, but I hadn't heard of anything regarding "Protestant" music.  I thought all music already had to be approved. 

When you say "Protestant" music, what exactly are you referring to?  I don't think that the general gathering music (i.e., processional, recessional, offeratory, Communion) is affected ... as far as I know, these can still be music from a hymnal, a broader range songbook like Breaking Bread, or contemporary worship music.

http://revisedromanmissal.org/Your_Story/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/40/Mass-of-Joy-and-Peace-Musical-Reflections-on-the-Revised-Translation-by-Tony-Alonso.aspx 

This sounds similar to what our parish is doing, we began last weekend with the Gloria and the Sanctus: 

I intentionally crafted many of the melodies for the parts of the Mass that have not changed with similar melodic material to the ones that have. For instance, the tune of the refrain of the Gospel Acclamation is almost identical to that of the Gloria. The tune of the intercessory response is the same as the Kyrie. In my own community, I have already introduced my setting of the Gospel Acclamation and the Intercessory Response. When implementation begins, the tunes will already be familiar and I believe that the transition to the new texts will be much smoother.
 

I like how this guy has written the liturgical music, with the full participation of the assembly in mind.

... music ministers are challenged to do their part to ensure that the “full and active participation by all the people” continues to be the “aim to be considered before all else” (Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, 14). It is out of a deep desire to ensure that the voice of the assembly remains primary that I set these new texts to music.

I composed the setting with the conviction that the primary instrument is the voice of the assembly. Therefore, it may be accompanied by organ, piano or guitar alone—or without any accompaniment at all. 

Is there a new GIRM as well?
 

Not that I can tell.  The 4th edition, currently in use, was issued on March 27, 1975 .