Welfare Moms - Should we be supporting moms so they can stay at home with their children? - Page 17

[mammal_mama]

serenbat, I am grateful for my very existence and the very air that I breathe, and for all the diverse and beautiful people and other life forms that I am so blessed to share this planet with! We should all be grateful!

I'm sorry that my attempt to show empathy for struggling families who make just a little more than me, and are therefore cut off from some helpful resources, has somehow offended you and given you the impression that I'm sitting here calculating just how many hours of availability for work I can schedule and still keep all my benefits at their current levels, because I can assure you I'm not. I make myself as available as I can be while still meeting the needs of myself and my family.

I take pride in doing a terrific job, and I love my work, and I was thrilled lately when I learned that I got an .85c raise starting in January. I don't know if it will affect our benefits like my previous increase did, but I wouldn't want to undo it even if it did. I'm much more interested in improving my skills and my earning capacity than I am in hanging onto benefits that I think are likely to vanish, anyhow, if our economy goes completely over the cliff as it may. I don't know what will even happen with my job in that case -- I'm just saying I love learning and doing everything I can to be in the very best possible position to meet the needs of my family and give my best to society, too.

As I've already said, I was just trying to express empathy to all those who are struggling but making just a tad too much to get any help. No offense or impression of being ungrateful was ever intended.

[serenbat]

Quote:

The average tax payer pays 10 cents a day for the existence of the whole food stamp program.

sounds so nice by itself but doesn't come close to the reality of ALL the other things the average tax payer pays for, that's not just 10 cents

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

sounds so nice by itself but doesn't come close to the reality of ALL the other things the average tax payer pays for, that's not just 10 cents

What would you like to pay for with your taxes?  What do you think the country with the highest GDP in the world should do about food insecurity? 

Are you not satisfied that our life expectancies are dropping and our infant mortality rate is behind every other industrialized country? Do you also need to punish poor people by preventing them from having a way to pay for food? 

What do you think taxes are FOR? Should they only go for things that benefit you, personally and directly? 

[kitteh]

How are all of the other things that tax payers pay for relevant in a discussion specifically about mothers/families on welfare (ie foodstamps)?

[mamaofthree]

serenbat: you sound very upset and resentful. i am always taken aback by people who are so angry at others who ask for and receive help when they need it. i am not sure it is a great awesome thing to struggle needlessly just to prove you are a good enough person. i happily pay taxes and would LOVE for ever single cent we paid in taxes to be sent to families who are struggling. i would much rather pay for that then a war. or pay for that then paying for a huge tax loop hole for a big arse company. 

we seem to have this issue with people who we perceive as "lazy". poor people, overweight people come popping into my mind right off. we have no issue with shaming them, making fun of them, dissing them, taking nasty about them. i think it is a complete shame.

[iowaorganic]

I am going to jump in a little late- but Captain Optimism- our taxes are SUPPOSED to go to what we can't do for ourselves- defense.  That is the vision of the Founding Fathers.  Charity is supposed to be helping your neighbor willingly- not the government forcefully taking what you have earned and giving it to someone who hasn't earned it.  

[Alenushka]

The main word "Can't" IF one can work and make enougth money to pay rent, day care, food and healthcare, then why should I support one? 

[serenbat]

first, not everyone is JUST on food stamps and not getting other assistance

Quote:

What would you like to pay for with your taxes?  What do you think the country with the highest GDP in the world should do about food insecurity? 

Are you not satisfied that our life expectancies are dropping and our infant mortality rate is behind every other industrialized country? Do you also need to punish poor people by preventing them from having a way to pay for food? 

What do you think taxes are FOR? Should they only go for things that benefit you, personally and directly? 

for SHORT, very short need and for real means testing and not for those who might have to (gasp) pay for a copay for Medicaid -

If I choose not opt into the company medical I can not qualify in my state for ANY medical assistance, it's not allowed, the only way we would get food stamps is not have income- we have no fall back when we pay hundreds each month to be in a medical plan, plus a deductible and copay and prescription and have to find a way to pay for food  

other people are paying and when you read someone stating how if they worked more they might loose a benefit, knowing how hard other do have it and get NOTHING in the way of assistance you tend to not feel sorry for that person- I certainly don't

taxes are for paying for SHORT term help, not years of assistance at the expense of deficit to others, clearly there seems to be less to give out and many IRL also demanding a stop to this- my state just added more restrictions 

[serenbat]

Quote:

serenbat, I am grateful for my very existence and the very air that I breathe, and for all the diverse and beautiful people and other life forms that I am so blessed to share this planet with! We should all be grateful!

I'm sorry that my attempt to show empathy for struggling families who make just a little more than me, and are therefore cut off from some helpful resources, has somehow offended you and given you the impression that I'm sitting here calculating just how many hours of availability for work I can schedule and still keep all my benefits at their current levels, because I can assure you I'm not. I make myself as available as I can be while still meeting the needs of myself and my family.

I take pride in doing a terrific job, and I love my work, and I was thrilled lately when I learned that I got an .85c raise starting in January. I don't know if it will affect our benefits like my previous increase did, but I wouldn't want to undo it even if it did. I'm much more interested in improving my skills and my earning capacity than I am in hanging onto benefits that I think are likely to vanish, anyhow, if our economy goes completely over the cliff as it may. I don't know what will even happen with my job in that case -- I'm just saying I love learning and doing everything I can to be in the very best possible position to meet the needs of my family and give my best to society, too.

As I've already said, I was just trying to express empathy to all those who are struggling but making just a tad too much to get any help. No offense or impression of being ungrateful was ever intended.

I also do not see that you are grateful that others pay for you- I just don't see it.

Other pays so you can get assistance and maybe one day you will join them and look back at your PP and see how it makes you feel.

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by iowaorganic 

I am going to jump in a little late- but Captain Optimism- our taxes are SUPPOSED to go to what we can't do for ourselves- defense.  That is the vision of the Founding Fathers.  Charity is supposed to be helping your neighbor willingly- not the government forcefully taking what you have earned and giving it to someone who hasn't earned it.  

Well, the founding fathers didn't believe in a standing military at all, and they were perfectly OK with slavery and people starving if it came to that. Our country's views about what it is in our best interest to pay for, and what is acceptable to allow, have changed a great deal since then.

[iowaorganic]

Our founding fathers believed in a state militia of which ever reasonable person was expected to be a part of.  this is not defense?

[mammal_mama]

I look forward to being able to put more back into society than I am currently able to do. It's also been a real joy to have the opportunity to help serve a meal once a month in one of our local homeless shelters. My 12yo dd has recently started helping, and it's awesome to see how industrious she is, and how eager she is to learn new skills and help others who are in even more difficult situations than we are.

I actually think I was more naive back before I started experiencing these difficult times, waaay back when I actually thought Rush Limbaugh made great sense.

[mammal_mama]

My youngest is 7, so I'm actually looking at not being able to get any more food stamps or medicaid for my girls in the not too distant future. We'll manage as best we can -- and now that my employer has instituted a new system with regular opportunities to increase our skill levels and salaries, I'm hoping to work my way into a much better position within the next few years -- and I'll do my best to help each girl with whatever higher education she wants to pursue, in order to get a good start in her adult life...

And I'm 48 right now and happy about the prospects of being a very productive worker 'til at least age 70 or longer if I'm able. I'm happy that I'll have the opportunity to pay more back into the system to help other families that need it.

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

The main word "Can't" IF one can work and make enougth money to pay rent, day care, food and healthcare, then why should I support one? 

Most people on welfare can't work & make enough to pay rent, day care, food, & healthcare. There will always be a few who take advantage of the system, just like there are people who steal and kill and all sorts of things. But for the most part you are NOT supporting people to stay home when they can just as easily go out & work & still make ends meet.

Originally Posted by serenbat 

for SHORT, very short need and for real means testing and not for those who might have to (gasp) pay for a copay for Medicaid -

If I choose not opt into the company medical I can not qualify in my state for ANY medical assistance, it's not allowed, the only way we would get food stamps is not have income- we have no fall back when we pay hundreds each month to be in a medical plan, plus a deductible and copay and prescription and have to find a way to pay for food  

other people are paying and when you read someone stating how if they worked more they might loose a benefit, knowing how hard other do have it and get NOTHING in the way of assistance you tend to not feel sorry for that person- I certainly don't

Look, you have a choice. You can keep working and pay your bills -- no matter how hard it is -- or you can stop working & rely on public aid.

Others are not fortunate enough to have this choice. That's the part that you don't seem to understand. Others literally cannot pay their bills no matter how hard they work. Others cannot pay that Medicaid copay that you sarcastically "gasp" at.

It's easy to look down on others when there's somewhere to look down to. When you hit rock bottom, you do what you can to survive. I'm happy for you that you don't have to use welfare, but not everyone gets to make that choice.

And I can't imagine in what world it is harder to work and struggle to make ends meet, than to not know where your next meal will come from. Poverty isn't easy, even with welfare. I am incredulous that you would tell someone on welfare that they don't know how hard others have it... others who CAN pay their bills and DO have a choice in the matter.

(And, for the record, I am not on welfare myself. So it's not just me defending myself here.)

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by iowaorganic 

Our founding fathers believed in a state militia of which ever reasonable person was expected to be a part of.  this is not defense?

It is defense, but not a standing military. It's closer to the national guard - civilians who can be called up at a moment's notice if needed.

However this is off topic (and I apologize for that.)

We don't spend a great deal on welfare and other assistance when compared to our budget as a whole. There will always be poor people in our country and they will always need help. I can't see how a civilized government can stand by and watch people starve to death, so there will always be some form of assistance for the poor. The question in this thread is whether a mother should stay home and collect welfare. I personally don't have a problem with it because it is not a lot of money, and her other options are often really very bad options - bad choices for child care for example. I trust people to know what is the best choice in their particular circumstances. There are so many requirements that if you qualify, IMO you must need it.

[rightkindofme]

I am in a very high tax bracket because my husband has the good fortune to be in a booming industry. When I was a child we were on welfare of one kind or another for most of the time I was a minor. My family was in the freak percentage of welfare recipients who out and out commit fraud. My family lied and had more kids to extend benefits and all kinds of uncool behavior. As a result of my personal experiences I have some strong knee jerk feelings about welfare.

As a rational adult I have gone through and found that my family is highly unusual (ok, I kind of knew that) and the actual percentage of people gaming the system is vanishingly small. It is hard for me to believe this data but I've seen it from a lot of sources so I have to get over my confirmation bias. I wish our welfare system worked differently because I wish there were time limits and I wish there were work requirements (that moms with kids could actually do) because I think these kinds of structures would encourage people to be actively learning marketable skills while getting welfare. But that would require a lot of specific help on the part of social workers and they currently don't do this. So people can't just be dumped into that system either.

Which is to say: I think that society as a whole benefits from people not starving to death or living in dire poverty. That has been so clearly demonstrated over and over throughout history. Countries that do not take care of their poor people do badly. That's just a fact. The reason that it is better to have the money "taken" by the government instead of just coming through individual private donation is because of economy of scale. The government can take $.10 from each person and that is just not possible through private individual means. There has to be a distribution center and a long number of other benefits.

Given the benefits to society for a child being with its mom... yeah. I'm happy to contribute to welfare. It's just better for everyone. Yes there are cut offs and it sucks for people who are in the 1% above benefits. It does. Yes. But life can't be that everyone gets everything. There has to just be a line. Even though it's hard.

[serenbat]

Quote:

Others are not fortunate enough to have this choice. That's the part that you don't seem to understand. Others literally cannot pay their bills no matter how hard they work. Others cannot pay that Medicaid copay that you sarcastically "gasp" at.

sorry you don't understand

there is a big difference - IMO between real need and greed - I see this as sheer greed - If I made a little more money, I'd have to start paying a copay for my girls' Medicaid and I'm sure we'd get less food stamps, too.

Other do struggle to pay for this attitude. I feel parents should pay toward their children's care. If you can work you can take some responsibility for you child's needs, not thinking about how to get more out of the system towards your advantage. That's insulting to those paying for this. 

I am not for letting people starve but I not for a never end pay, pay, pay at the expensive of others.

Quote:

And I can't imagine in what world it is harder to work and struggle to make ends meet, than to not know where your next meal will come from. Poverty isn't easy, even with welfare. I am incredulous that you would tell someone on welfare that they don't know how hard others have it... others who CAN pay their bills and DO have a choice in the matter.

how naive of you to think only people on welfare struggle to pay bills- try medical bills when you are forced to have to take hundreds of dollars out of each pay and have no other choice! Or I guess the "choice" you feel we have is to just quit working and have others take care of us! 

[mamaofthree]

why are you so angry? i seriously do not get it. if it makes you feel better imagine your tax dollars going to things like roads or libraries or if that doesn't work for you then defense or the farm bill or something else. 

i can't stand that my tax money goes to war, so i just pretend it doesn't. i help poor families with my tax dollars and pay for the library. :)

[bmcneal]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

how naive of you to think only people on welfare struggle to pay bills- try medical bills when you are forced to have to take hundreds of dollars out of each pay and have no other choice! Or I guess the "choice" you feel we have is to just quit working and have others take care of us! 

Of *course* there are people besides people on welfare who struggle to pay bills. It especially sucks when you pay hundreds of dollars out of your check for insurance, and *still* have to pay a substantial amount for treatment. That's one of the reasons I'm not real thrilled at the way the government is right now, and probably a bunch of other people, too. Medical care is damn expensive (maybe it needs to be, maybe not, I don't know.), and it's ridiculous! No one should have to choose between paying to see doctor or get medical care and eat! There should be equal access to equal care for *everyone*, and everyone should have to pay a certain amount of their income. Of course, there is no way for it to be an exact equal amount; there is no way in heck someone flipping burgers at McDonald's could afford the same dollar amount as the CEO of a big-arse company, but they both deserve access to the same care.

That being said, I have no idea how to make that happen, or even if the "powers that be" would want that...

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

there is a big difference - IMO between real need and greed - I see this as sheer greed - If I made a little more money, I'd have to start paying a copay for my girls' Medicaid and I'm sure we'd get less food stamps, too.

It's not greed, it's reality, it's the numbers. Say she got a raise of $0.30/hour (average raise for someone making $10/hour) and that put her over the Medicaid limit. That's an extra $52/month. That's not enough to pay copays unless you only go to the doctor/specialist only once or twice a month. We pay about $250/month in copays for routine stuff (and this is after severely cutting back on even the most necessary appointments... it would be a good $400+ if we didn't skip appointments, or had an ER visit, accident, etc.) At that $250 in copays, the raise would need to be $1.45/hour just to break even. $0.30/hour raise would leave her $200/month short. Where is that $200 supposed to come from?

Originally Posted by serenbat 

how naive of you to think only people on welfare struggle to pay bills- try medical bills when you are forced to have to take hundreds of dollars out of each pay and have no other choice! Or I guess the "choice" you feel we have is to just quit working and have others take care of us! 

I didn't say only people on welfare struggle to pay bills. I said that it's easier to struggle to make ends meet, than to not make ends meet at all. If you can put in lots of effort, extra work, creative budgeting, and extreme frugality, it's not easy by any stretch. But you're still better off than the person that can't make ends meet no matter how much they struggle.

I know how hard it is to pay bills. I have worked 3 jobs (while in school full-time) just to pay basic living expenses. I have never had cable, or a flat-screen TV, or an iPod or iPad or smartphone, and most of the things we own came from the side of the road or hand-me-downs. I've never gotten my nails or hair done (not even for my wedding) or gone on a nice vacation and we virtually never eat out, go to the movies, etc. In fact, due to finances, we make our own toothpaste, dilute our dish & laundry soap to 99% water, do our own repairs even though we suck at it and things just fall apart... And even with all those "sacrifices," I lay awake at night trying to figure out how we can afford our medical bills, our home, transportation, etc. because we just don't have enough money. So believe me, I know it's hard to struggle to pay bills. But I am grateful that somehow, for today at least, we have a roof overhead and food in the cupboard.

You seem to have a very negative bias toward those on welfare so I'm not sure there's much point in hashing this out any more. I do not agree that most people on welfare are greedy or selfish or taking advantage of the system. I'm happy to pay taxes to ensure others have food & shelter & medical care. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.