Welfare Moms - Should we be supporting moms so they can stay at home with their children? - Page 20

[mammal_mama]

So you're asking me to summarize your point of view? Will you also be wiling to summarize mine?

As I understand it, you are asking us to have more sympathy for the working poor who make just slightly too much to qualify for any kind of assistance. I'd like to remind you that my attempts to sympathize kind of backfired with at least one other person. I tried to explain that I am mentally preparing myself for the difficult transitions that I have been, and will be, going through as my income increases and I gradually qualify for less and less assistance. I've explained that sometimes, an increase in income is not quite enough to make up for the reduction in a benefit.

My statements were misinterpreted as me saying that I'm trying my best not to work too much so as to be able to hang on to my current level of assistance. I realized that I may not have worded things in the best way, so I came back to explain what I'd really meant to say -- that I see an increase in income as, overall, a very wonderful thing. My comments about losing some of our food stamps when my income increased a while back, and about me knowing that I will eventually need to pay a co-pay's for my girls' medicaid, were seriously not me gasping, "Oh my god! I'm about to lost my free ride!" They were really about my attempts to empathize with serenbat; even though I know that I have never been in her exact same shoes, I think I can understand how hard it is to have to scramble to figure out how we're going to get by.

I also understand that you're asking us to have more sympathy for her need to sometimes lash out because she is hurting so bad. I think you have a really valid point here, but I think there's also room for those she's lashing out against to share their own points of view.

[serenbat]

Quote:

I also understand that you're asking us to have more sympathy for her need to sometimes lash out because she is hurting so bad.

I certainly do not want nor need your sympathy.

You do not know the whole reasoning behind how and why I feel the way I do, nor do you need all the details and given what others have posted I highly doubt much would change in your thinking regarding it. I see it very pointless to even explain farther as I feel nothing will appease you, and I do not care frankly. My state is making changes where they can for "assistance" and I (like others) do know abuse is real and many do share my point of view IRL.

Quote:

 I realized that I may not have worded things in the best way

I completely agree, you don't.

ETA- not like this will matter or that others even get it - but I do know a person that right now can not walk because she has huge upfront costs (that's what happens when people have insurance and not getting it for free) and has to WAIt to get surgery, and I know someone who is getting aid and get's her nails done weekly- I see walking as a need and nails as greed!

[mamaofthree]

mammal mama: i wanted to say that i loved your post about capitalism. very right on the money actually and i would love to read that article if you have the time to send me a PM link. :)

serenbat: ((hug)) you are hurting alot for whatever reason. you don't have to share but your anger is very up front and in people face. i wish you could have what ever it is you need to heal so you could move on and not be so angry. 

personally, i have know one family that "used" the system. everyone else who needed it really needed it. and most just barely scrapped by. it was not fun for them, it wasn't a party of free money that they joyously sat around laughing at all the saps who went to work and didn't just milk the system like a big bunch of losers. i can't imagine trying to feed my family on what food stamps would give. i think it is easy to blame the poor on the worlds troubles. it is easy because they have no one to stick up for them. especailly here where we love money and status and things more than people. if we truly cared for people we would all be ok in making sure everyone had what they needed to bare bones live. but instead we seem to only care about what is good for ourselves. very sad indeed. 

[serenbat]

Quote:

 i think it is easy to blame the poor on the worlds troubles. it is easy because they have no one to stick up for them. especailly here where we love money and status and things more than people.

you really just don't get any of what I am saying

it would be nice if people really did need assistance vs what is going on for so many others

Quote:

i can't imagine trying to feed my family on what food stamps would give.

since you can't imagine that, can you imagine what it is like when you don't get food stamps and can't do it?

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I certainly do not want nor need your sympathy.

I realize that you've never asked me for sympathy. If I'm remembering right, the main thing you've asked me is whether I'm teaching my children that it's good to try to make less money in order to get more public assistance. I don't know if you've paid much attention to my responses -- I realize you did pick out the part where I realized that I may not have worded things in the best way, and you expressed your agreement with that -- but I kind of feel like you're just skimming through my posts and picking out any little tidbits you can pounce on and use as evidence to support whatever sort of beef you seem to have with me, or with whatever kind of person you seem to think I am.

My post about sympathy was in response to another poster who asked if I could demonstrate any understanding of what she had been saying. Good little student that I am, I decided to take a moment to demonstrate that I did understand that she was asking us all to have more sympathy for the working poor who don't qualify for any benefits, and that she was also asking us to understand that you are lashing out because you are hurting.

Whether you've asked for anyone's sympathy or not, you can't dictate our feelings on the matter anymore than I can force you to stop feeling that all of your hardships are caused by people like me who make less than you and therefore do currently qualify for, and receive, some assistance. Here's to hoping, with mamaofthree, that you are soon able to find a way to heal.

And mamaofthree, thanks so much for your kind words! I'll get that link to you ASAP.

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by pek64 


There is no way to discuss the problems if one side is insisting that everything is peachy! And that's what seems to be going on. Talking about middle school crap, and smugly telling us how not smug they are, is *not* a discussion.

 

You've completely misunderstand what she meant with the "middle school crap" and yet PROVE exactly what she is saying by what you've posted.

You dont qualify for aid and are struggling, and therefore are mad at people who DO qualify and in your opinion dont struggle as much as you do? Why are you mad at THEM? Why not be "mad at" the system/govt/whomever who thinks its ok to set the limits so low that those who dont qualify really struggle? If the chick getting her nails done while getting welfare stops getting her nails done it wont do ONE THING to help YOU get "your share" or help you not struggle. But it lets the "real enemy" (for lack of a better word) off the hook while you're casting negative looks in another poor person's direction. The whole point about the "99 percent" movement is that middle and poor income people shouldnt be fighting each other...we're all in this together.

[meemee]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

you really just don't get any of what I am saying

it would be nice if people really did need assistance vs what is going on for so many others

it seems neither are you coz you are writing off a whole system because "if people REALLY did need assistance". seriously. 

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

ETA- not like this will matter or that others even get it - but I do know a person that right now can not walk because she has huge upfront costs (that's what happens when people have insurance and not getting it for free) and has to WAIt to get surgery, and I know someone who is getting aid and get's her nails done weekly- I see walking as a need and nails as greed!

So if person B stops getting her nails done, will Person A get her surgery? How does that work exactly? If one thing has nothing to do with the other, whats the point in mentioning it? Except to blame the poor (oh you know those welfare queens, gettin' their nails done and buying lobster with food stamps. )

Do you know how LOW one's income has to be to qualify for medicaid in my state? ALL of my kids get medicaid due to our income being below poverty level and yet *I* cannot get medicaid. Its a little mind boggling to me but there ya go. Its just crazy to me that instead of being mad at a system that allows someone to go without needed surgery you are expending so much emotional energy getting pissed at someone getting their nails done. I have just never understood that attitude at all. I read a poster once who said she "never forgot" (after a dozen years) a man buying a lobster with food stamps, but SHE, the cashier trying to make ends meet, could never afford lobster...to me that is so out of touch...be mad you dont make a living wage for your job, be mad lobsters so expensive, be mad that you dont qualify for help but dont be mad at the guy who may very well have eaten beans and rice every day for two weeks to afford a special meal. I've seen people begrudging a mother for buying a birthday cake for her child ("*I* could never afford store bought cake, she should have BAKED it!") or commenting on what people are wearing while using food stamps ("*I* could never afford those boots!!! why does SHE get to have them AND get food stamps??" ) and i even read one person walking out to see what kind of vehicle someone gets in ("Omg they got into a brand new car!!! bilking the system!!!" ) Its crazy to me. And really offensive.

[mamaofthree]

that is so true. because you never know how that person got the things they got. those super nice jeans/shoes/coat may have been bought off season or at the thrift store (we have gotten some nice stuff from friends FOR FREE, and i mean nice stuff), maybe that car belongs to a family member, and yeah, maybe that lobster was a birthday meal. when i was growing up we were on food stamps for a year or so and my mom still remembers epopel giving her grief for daring to buy a roast with her food stamps while they had all sorts of crap food in their own cart. like being poor means you must eat bad food. and YES we ate LOADS of beans and rice and government cheese, but once a month my mom would get a nice cut of meat or whole chicken or something.

and getting your nails done, or going out and getting a pizza or whatever... just because you are poor doesn't mean you must suffer every minute. if you pinch pennies and want to once a month treat yourself to nails, why the heck not. it only cost $15 or so. i try and remember that when i am feeling all judgy of others. what silly stuff have i spent money on? who i am to say what someone can or can't spend their wee bit of money on. 

i just refuse to be hateful and pissed off at other families for a life i know nothing about. and i am always glad when someone gets the help they need to feed their children and themselves. i am too busy counting my own blessing to be angry at others for what they have.

[mammal_mama]

queenjane and mamaofthree -- thank you for bringing out those points. I am now thinking that the angry judgmentalism is not about the fact that there is welfare -- it's about the fact that some people feel if you're poor enough to qualify for any assistance at all, you owe it to society to be miserable, too, or at least not any happier than the people who don't qualify.

Because actually, anyone who's taken the steps and found out they don't qualify, obviously was willing to take whatever assistance they could get if they had qualified.

I don't know how to explain that some of us, no matter what situation we're in, simply can't stay depressed for long. For some of us, it's just second nature to find things we enjoy in every situation. To tell the truth, my midwife didn't make it in time for the birth of dd2 because, as she told me on the phone, she just didn't think I seemed miserable or uncomfortable enough to be about to have the baby. And I believed her, because dd1's labor had been totally induced in the hospital, so I wasn't even sure if the mild contractions that felt just slightly stronger than Braxton-Hicks were really labor, LOL.

And for anyone who can't see a parallel between thinking someone's not miserable enough to be in labor, and thinking they're not miserable enough to really need any public assistance for their family -- I'm sad for you that you can't see it. Because for me, being able to see parallels and connecting threads between seemingly totally different situations is helping me see a whole lot of things more clearly.

[serenbat]

Yes there is no fraud, no gaming of the system and all those who need assistance are getting it! and my state (and around the country as well) is not prosecuting any one for it........it's a perfect system 

dream on thinking there are no mother's that need food that aren't getting the aid they need

Quote:

I don't know if you've paid much attention to my responses

I think it's quite clear and I'm sure I'm not the only one that can see your posts and needs. 

Edited by serenbat - 1/26/13 at 6:03am

[mammal_mama]

I haven't seen anyone here say that the system is perfect, or that no human being ever commits any kind of fraud (including welfare fraud), or that everything in life, or in the welfare system, is fair. No one thinks it's just peachy that you haven't been able to obtain any public assistance -- some of us just don't understand your raging need to bash other poor people because of the unfairness you see. Honestly, I'm not a vain person, and if never getting my nails done could ensure that everyone got surgery when they needed it, I'd be all for it. But that's just not how it works.

[kitteh]

No one is saying that the system is perfect, serenbat! I think every single person in this thread agrees that there need to be reforms, and that those who truly DO try to game the system by selling food stamps, or working under the table while receiving assistance, or somehow managing to otherwise lie on their application forms ought to be prosecuted. No one here would deny that. But that doesn't mean that the whole system ought to be done away with, and it still does not explain your sweeping bitterness towards all welfare recipients. I'm sorry that you and your family are struggling. I dont think it is fair that you want everyone else who needs assistance to struggle and/or starve too, because if you don't qualify then no one should?

[mamazee]

The stereotype of someone getting her nails done while on welfare is the new "welfare Cadillac queen" stereotype, but updated for this generation. It's still a stereotype. People on welfare can't afford expensive trips for their nails. If it is happening at all, which I frankly question, it is very rare. If their nails look nice, most likely a friend is doing it, or they work at a salon themselves and are able to get done by co-workers when the shop isn't busy, or something else. You can't assume that someone with nice nails is spending a lot of money on it. Poor people like to look nice too, and can find ways to keep themselves up on the cheap.

There's this feeling that poor people have to make sure they look poor. If they see jeans at the thrift store that would cost $100 if they'd bought them new, they'd better pass them by because people will assume they are spending their welfare check on $100 jeans. If they have a friend who can do hair nicely, they'd better make sure their hair looks bad and not get any help. If they know how to do nails well (and there are tons of how-to guides on a wide variety of fancy nail painting methods on Pinterest, and I imagine elsewehre) they'd better keep their nails looking as bad as possible, or people will say they don't really need any help.

But at the same time, they are required to keep looking for work, and unless they keep themselves looking nice, they have almost no chance of getting a job. They're in a pretty bad spot between all the expectations for htem.

[kitteh]

Also, we have been talking a lot about those who qualify for TANF and foodstamps, but what about the other programs with higher income guidelines? Are those just inherently evil because they don't require that recipients be scraping by or living hand to mouth in order to qualify?

My daughter is on Healthy Families, which is a government-subsidized program for children whose families make slightly too much to qualify for Medi-Cal. However, medi-cal has a special program for pregnancy coverage, and those income guidelines are higher so my pregnancy with DD was totally covered, and this one mostly is too. We also qualify for WIC, whose upper limit for a family of 4 (or family of 3 including a pregnant woman) is over $42,500/year. We budget wisely and make sacrifices in some areas--like not paying to get our hair cut, or not owning a car--but we certainly are not scraping pennies together at the end of the month trying to cover rent. Does that mean we are immoral for accepting the assistance that we are (completely legally!) recieving? Does WIC need to be abolished completely because they don't require that a family be near starvation to qualify for checks?
Edited by kitteh - 1/26/13 at 7:09am

[mammal_mama]

I'm trying to figure out why some find it so offensive to see a welfare recipient who has nice clothes, or nails, or is just clearly finding ways to enjoy her life in spite of her difficulties. How does it help society for anyone to stop smiling and laughing, and join the ranks of the miserable?

Is it that some equate happiness with an attitude that everything is perfect? If I had to wait for my life, or the world, to be perfect before I could start enjoying it, I'd be waiting a very long time. I think it's okay to see the unfairnesses and imperfections, and get busy finding ways to work on them, and still have fun right now.

[serenbat]

I'm calling it what it is, in the case I DO know- the person is committing fraud and yes I have a real problem with it- I see another mother that needs help and can't get and one that has a standing appointment each week for her nails and brags about it- it is what it is. This mother is only one of three that I personally know about. She is not an upstanding non-queen setting a fine example.

and this is just not some little isolated problem we are having in this country, far from it, it is happening all over--those abusing it will cause those who do need to have cut

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/breaking-news/food-stamp-fraud-costing-floridians-millions/nT6FS/

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-01-25/business/sfl-food-stamp-20130124_1_erin-gillespie-food-stamps-ebt-cards

http://www.abc2news.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/millions-commit-food-stamp-fraud-every-year

[mamazee]

If you know someone committing fraud, then call the police. But a few people (few enough that it makes news when it happens) breaking the law doesn't mean that the vast majority of people don't honestly need and rely upon that money.

[serenbat]

Quote:

If you know someone committing fraud, then call the police.

you don't call the police!

each state has a reporting agency that conducts it and prosecutes and YES it's very easy to report- I know

if you want to think it is so small go ahead, states don't seem to share this view http://www.cms.gov/Medicare-Medicaid-Coordination/Fraud-Prevention/FraudAbuseforConsumers/downloads/smafraudcontacts.pdf

states have for other assistance programs as well

[kitteh]

Those articles cited a 7.5% fraud rate, which is definitely too high, but still leaves over 90% of recipients in the needy-and-honest category. The articles also stated that fraud could be greatly reduced if the agencies simply had better, computerized means of cross-checking income and family size. This 7.5% aren't all working under the table and making unreported income. They are just lying about how much they make, and I think the agencies absolutely have to do a better job of verifying applicants' claims.