Welfare Moms - Should we be supporting moms so they can stay at home with their children? - Page 31

[mamaofthree]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I once gave a young mother what I thought were nice gently used clothing - she informed me that is what her DD's SS was for - new clothing - "I" never tried again.

this is really interesting to me. my mother is that way, she sees hand me downs or used clothing as an insult BECAUSE she grew up poor and was made fun of for having her older sisters clothing on (which was out of date/style). now she refuses all hand me downs/used stuff. in fact a friend gave her a hockey jersey that they found at a thrift store (our home team which my mom LOVES) and my mom was offened. which is just so dang weird to me, to be honest. because in my house (dh, the kids and i) LOVE LOVE LOVE the thrift store and hand me downs. in fact my youngest is totally clothed in used stuff. i have not had to buy her anything for 2 years. and my boys all LOVE to get their older brothers clothing, they argue over it. and they love anything they get from friends. i never let it seem like a bad thing, it was always seen as a cool awesome way to get clothing. in fact our home school group has a bi-annual clothing exchange and my kids about have a stroke of happiness. 

maybe this mom had a crappy experience with used stuff, maybe it made her feel poor. i don't personally get it, like it doesn't make sense to me, BUT i can empathize. 

[mamaofthree]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

talk to someone who works directly is one way........but really talk to others, those who work in an ER, do medical billing, and I could tell you tons of what it was like when I staffed for a temp agency- there are many professions that you may not think of that know a lot about fraud/misuse, etc. 

i am not sure someone who uses the ER for their medical care is committing  fraud. it is usually because they can not afford to see a doctor in an office. i mean dang, some doctors charge $150- $200 a visit with no payment plan, at least in the hospital you can get payment plan. 

i have worked as a nurse for 16 years and i have seen many many poor people come in for simple things like an ear infection, or a sore throat, BUT also come in with serious issues that had they been caught earlier would not be so much of an issue, but when you are poor, you suck it up, you don't see the doctor (because you can't afford to) and you can't afford to miss work, so you finally go to the ER and it is too late. very very sad stuff. i would love a system that didn't seem to force people in to this situation. i am all for universal healthcare.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I once gave a young mother what I thought were nice gently used clothing - she informed me that is what her DD's SS was for - new clothing - "I" never tried again.

I think it would have been politer for her to just say, "No thanks, but thanks for thinking of us!"

That said, I know at least one low income, single mama who told me that it can sometimes be overwhelming, dealing with all the people who think they're being helpful when they do their periodic housecleaning or decluttering and just bring all their old clothes, toys, and miscellaneous items for you to sort through, figure out what you need, and then find a way to dispose of the rest for them. Some of these mamas are sitting there in a tiny space, being forced to drop whatever else they'd hoped to accomplish that day and sort through it, or just be a little bit more crowded 'til they do get around to it.

If a poor mama is feeling overwhelmed dealing with others' donations, and maybe by other stuff in her life, too, it can be challenging to think of the best way to say no. I'm sorry this mama said it in a way that didn't set so well with you.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by couldbebetter29 

MY step daughter was told a true story of how my parents had 6 children when they were growing up, ( my parents are now 62-64). Her reply shocked me " how did they survive on food stamps and welfare?" My step daughter is 10. my fiance and i dont recieve food stamps or assistance though her mother dose because she chooses to live on stamps and assistance and live in low income housing and chooses not to work with kids that are 17,14,10,and 9.
Is this really what we want to teach our children?
Also just a question and feel free to anwser, of there was no assistance and stamps available, would you choose to continue to stay at home or work ?

OK, I have a question about this story. Was your fiancé married to this woman for most of the years her children were growing up? Did she have a lot of education before she married and chose to stay home 17 years ago? When you say "chooses to live on stamps and assistance," to what extent are her choices in the present determined by her past choice to marry and have four children when she was younger? (I'm assuming this person is your boyfriend's ex-spouse, but maybe not.) 

Because, see, I have a graduate degree and I've been having a hard time finding a full-time job. I'm doing the WAHM thing and just about making ends meet with a home business and a lot of part-time contract work. Are there lots of jobs for women who haven't been in the workforce for most of their lives? Can this woman "choose" to leave public housing and go buy a house somewhere? I'm just curious, since you're so intimately involved with this one. Is she really "choosing" to live on food stamps? (I'm assuming she's not receiving TANF if she isn't working because TANF has a work requirement.) 

[mammal_mama]

In reference to my previous posts about Europe, I get the impression that many Europeans see the relationship between personal and societal responsibility a little differently than many Americans. As I've already mentioned, there is this emphasis on taking care of yourself and staying healthy -- and the universal healthcare systems would be seriously strained if there were as many Europeans as Americans suffering from lifestyle-related, and primarily obesity-related illnesses -- but their governments and city planners seem to be a lot smarter about protecting a way of life that has been so beneficial for so many generations. Maybe their focus is more on environmental sustainability than on human health -- but many of the results, such as high numbers of people continuing to use bicycles and walk a lot to meet their regular, day-to-day transportation needs, just as in the past, are wonderful for health.

In contrast, in the U.S., it seems like many of the same people who emphasize personal responsibility for health, are also really gun-ho about allowing the corporations total freedom to continue polluting the environment and structuring the food industry in an unhealthy and unsustainable way (one result of which is few people have affordable grocery stores in easy walking distance) . In this case, I'm not talking about anyone on this thread! Also, most conservatives in my city seem pretty unsupportive of public transportation.

I hate it that there's this strong thrust on individual responsibility that tends to divide people, when I feel like we really need to be coming together to change many of the structures that are contributing to our ill-health. And I speak as an obese woman with an obese husband who now needs periodic hospitalization, and occasionally in the ICU. We're costing the taxpayers a ton of money, and I'm not going to debate here about how much is our fault and how much is society's fault. I'm just saying that if we want to lower our nation's healthcare costs, we need to focus not just on individual responsibility but on making the structural changes that can help us all get healthier. We need to do this anyway for the Earth as a whole!

[mamaofthree]

i agree. it is easy to say "take responsiblity for yourself" but then what? what happens if you don't own a car, and you can't walk 2-4 miles to a grocery store and the city refuses mass transit? then what? just seems silly to me.

[kitteh]

Originally Posted by journeymom 

If you change all the 'you's in your statement for 'I's, it will be more accurate.  I don't entirely share your perspective. 

Amen!

I'll share my own anecdotes. Ages ago I read an essay from this journalist whose mom was single, and was a house cleaner in a very exclusive neighborhood at the coast of Massachusetts, where the wealthiest people had summer homes and came to "Summer".  Tradition was, at the end of the season when the wealthy home owners all went home they dropped off the remains of their cupboards at the food pantry in the next town over, where she grew up.  Well, okay that's nice, but these people left behind a lot of non-standard, useless stuff. Like jars of capers and cocktail onions and rose hip jam and boxes of risotto rice. These aren't helpful or useful for a mom trying to feed her kids.  The journalist, a woman, said while of course the people receiving these donations knew the wealthy donators didn't mean any harm, it still galled.  It did serve to illustrate at best a cluelessness, at worst an indifferent attitude that if you're poor you should be 100% grateful for whatever anyone can be bothered to give you. 

Absolutely, and I see a lot of evidence for that right here in this thread (thankfully not from the majority of posters, but STILL)

Anecdote number two, I participated in my church's service day at a women and children's homeless shelter.  The gal heading our group bought bags and bags of potatoes and, I don't know, maybe 10 cans of ham.  We cooked and served the food and these moms with their kids were very appreciative and thanked us sincerely.  The potatoes were all eaten, but most of the ham was uneaten.  Our group leader was shocked and baffled. Why in the world didn't these people eat up the ham? I talked to my husband about this later.  His family was frequently on the edge and they did receive church food aid, including canned hams like that.  He said he hates the sight of those cans now.  Everyone knew that ham was far inferior to the whole hams you see on an Easter dinner table. 
 

I've lost my train of thought here, sorry.  Shouldn't have coffee on an empty stomach. 

Originally Posted by couldbebetter29 

MY step daughter was told a true story of how my parents had 6 children when they were growing up, ( my parents are now 62-64). Her reply shocked me " how did they survive on food stamps and welfare?" My step daughter is 10. my fiance and i dont recieve food stamps or assistance though her mother dose because she chooses to live on stamps and assistance and live in low income housing and chooses not to work with kids that are 17,14,10,and 9.
Is this really what we want to teach our children?
Also just a question and feel free to anwser, of there was no assistance and stamps available, would you choose to continue to stay at home or work ?

I DON'T stay home 100% of the time, and the amount that we receive from WIC is really small, so I'm not sure if my situation/opinion is one you are asking for, but the answer to it is yes. Although, we are lucky that we don't DEPEND on WIC (no one does, it's not that kind of program.) But we would not change our lifestyle choices if assistance wasn't available. And plenty of people simply do not even HAVE that choice to make. You can't choose to go to work if youdon't make enough to pay for childcare! What are you supposed to do with your kids?

Originally Posted by mamaofthree 

this is really interesting to me. my mother is that way, she sees hand me downs or used clothing as an insult BECAUSE she grew up poor and was made fun of for having her older sisters clothing on (which was out of date/style). now she refuses all hand me downs/used stuff. in fact a friend gave her a hockey jersey that they found at a thrift store (our home team which my mom LOVES) and my mom was offened. which is just so dang weird to me, to be honest. because in my house (dh, the kids and i) LOVE LOVE LOVE the thrift store and hand me downs. in fact my youngest is totally clothed in used stuff. i have not had to buy her anything for 2 years. and my boys all LOVE to get their older brothers clothing, they argue over it. and they love anything they get from friends. i never let it seem like a bad thing, it was always seen as a cool awesome way to get clothing. in fact our home school group has a bi-annual clothing exchange and my kids about have a stroke of happiness. 

maybe this mom had a crappy experience with used stuff, maybe it made her feel poor. i don't personally get it, like it doesn't make sense to me, BUT i can empathize. 

This is us. We have bought DD some new items here and there, but the vast majority of her wardrobe comes from hand-me-downs given to us by freinds and relatives. I feel so incredibly blessed for that (and happy to be having another GIRL so that we can get double-duty out of the stuff!)

[serenbat]

Quote:

If a poor mama is feeling overwhelmed dealing with others' donations, and maybe by other stuff in her life, too, it can be challenging to think of the best way to say no. I'm sorry this mama said it in a way that didn't set so well with you.

That is not the case with this person - she is the one with the standing nail apt - and she uses the ER because she doesn't want to buy insurance- she wants ALL new items- she is not overwhelmed, she is living well above her means and wants to project a certain image- not even close to what you are thinking

[journeymom]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

That is not the case with this person - she is the one with the standing nail apt - and she uses the ER because she doesn't want to buy insurance- she wants ALL new items- she is not overwhelmed, she is living well above her means and wants to project a certain image- not even close to what you are thinking

Well, what an incredibly shallow person.  Please don't extrapolate from her that everyone on public assistance is like her.

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama 

That said, I know at least one low income, single mama who told me that it can sometimes be overwhelming, dealing with all the people who think they're being helpful when they do their periodic housecleaning or decluttering and just bring all their old clothes, toys, and miscellaneous items for you to sort through, figure out what you need, and then find a way to dispose of the rest for them. Some of these mamas are sitting there in a tiny space, being forced to drop whatever else they'd hoped to accomplish that day and sort through it, or just be a little bit more crowded 'til they do get around to it.

This happened to me! Our neighbors were moving and sent their daughter down to ask if we wanted some clothes for my daughter. Since one of their girls was bigger and a couple years older, i thought sure, i'll take free stuff...jeans or tshirts or whatever. Well. Their kids toted like ten garbage bags full of clothes over to our house (in full view of the entire neighborhood) and as i started going through it, there were baby girl clothes (i had two preschool age boys and my daughter who was 10), adult woman's clothes (not my size) teen girl stuff (waaay too big for my daughter)...bras and used tissues and a latex glove...ick! after the first two bags i stopped opening them. It was really kind of offensive. Its not like she carefully chose some stuff she thought we could use...she cleaned out her basement and instead of HER having to do the work of donating her stuff she dumped it off on ME to deal with. I had to find a place to store it and then eventually took it to the thrift store and made it their problem to sort. Not cool. But i didnt feel i could "complain" because someon was giving us stuff and you're supposed to be grateful right???

Shortly after that i came home to find someone had tossed a garbage bag full of girls clothes on our front porch, which had opened, the contents spilled out and it had been rained on. Nice. I think it was the people across the street, not sure. They were decent clothes but how embarrassing.

I love getting a bargain and i dont mind used stuff but #1) i'm kinda picky now about what i bring into my house, if you're a smoker or have shedding animals i kinda dont want it. Sorry. And not keen on possibly getting fleas or bedbugs or something like that from donated stuff from some random neighbor. and #2) my kids were foster kids. My daughter esp was used to always getting stuff "given" to her rather than her being able to go to the store and choose her own clothing. I really dont want her to be in the position of wearing some outfit and having a neighbor girl say 'oh yeah that used to be mine'...we already had a situation where a good friend's child made a big sarcastic point of "nice coat! haha!" to my daughter at a gathering, because it had been HER coat. And while we love the coat and really needed it, its not cool to rub it in someone's face that it used to be yours. Her mother cut her off/redirected her but still. It stings.

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

That is not the case with this person - she is the one with the standing nail apt - and she uses the ER because she doesn't want to buy insurance- she wants ALL new items- she is not overwhelmed, she is living well above her means and wants to project a certain image- not even close to what you are thinking

I'm sure we all know assholes. Heck when my kids were in foster care (i was the foster parent, i've since adopted them) i was buying them stuff at walmart and once upon a child, and bmom was bringing brand new name brand clothing (rocawear? that kind of stuff) and brand new expensive shoes every month for them. I kinda felt like sheesh maybe your priorities are a little screwed up, the kids dont need air jordans they need a mom with an apartment who can hold down a job and not drink.

BUT....you seem to be saying that since you've had some negative experiences, that is the majority of people getting help. You do realize, dont you, that there are a lot of people who got recently laid off or who are the WORKING POOR who are making ends meet with things like food stamps, WIC etc. That food stamps actually might be the difference in being able to pay rent or having to go live in a subsidized apartment or even the shelter.

I think it was you that had said you make too much to qualify for help even though you struggle...i assume from this that you have actually applied for some kind of govt assistance? if you have....how are you different from most of the other people actually getting help?

you've repeatedly stated "its TEMPORARY not a LIFE STYLE" but as far as i can see have not defined what temporary means to you. Three months? Six? A year? two years? what do you expect someone to do in that time to change their situation? remember we arent just talking about someone getting TANF, food stamps, sub housing and medicaid. You seem to also have a problem with people working but getting WIC or subsidized daycare etc. So if a person holds down one full time job what should they do, in your eyes, to get totally free of assistance? work two jobs? three? what if they still cant make ends meet?

I know a nurse that complains about people going to the ER to get a pg test, when they can get one at the dollar store. I get that. i get being upset at the waste of valuable resources. At the same time i also get why a girl might do that instead of spend cash at the store. Medicaid pays for the trip to the ER...it doesnt pay for shampoo or bus money. Thats just HER reality. She makes the system work for her the best way she can in a crappy situation. She isnt defrauding the system...the govt could put restrictions on the use of medicaid. WIC could refuse to cover subsequent babies. They COULD do that, and they dont. Why fault people for working within the guidelines the govt has established? why assign some moral failing to that?

[serenbat]

Quote:

I'm sure we all know assholes.

I'm very well versed in the difference! I know all types. 

This is not just because of this one person- we have a very large percentage in my area. I not making a list here of everyone and everything. I really do know the difference and have seen it for years, this is not new except in how brazen people are getting - that is new! Bold and no holding back on what they can get away with - bragging.

I spend years dealing with people that really didn't want job but wanted to say they were looking- I have dealt with all types.

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I'm very well versed in the difference! I know all types. 

This is not just because of this one person- we have a very large percentage in my area. I not making a list here of everyone and everything. I really do know the difference and have seen it for years, this is not new except in how brazen people are getting - that is new! Bold and no holding back on what they can get away with - bragging.

I spend years dealing with people that really didn't want job but wanted to say they were looking- I have dealt with all types.

So whats your solution?

Again, you keep saying temporary...what does that mean to you? how quickly can someone "better themselves" (your words)...what steps should they take? what does that look like to you, specifically?

[serenbat]

I view temporary as just that temporary- not a life style - it's really very simple - if you have a child and don't go back to work with in 3 months because you want to be on assistance, I really feel you are making a life style choice because I have seen it happen over and over again- it's years if ever if you work again. If you were not getting any assistance you would have go work in most cases. When you grow up being on assistance and turn right around and do the same with a baby at 16 and you still are on again, off again come 30-i't s life style, if you are lucky you might do some part time here and there and if you get hurt you are in disability.

I know a lawyer who does nothing buy disability- he is doing wonderful, you wait weeks to get into him and it's all commission. That's a whole another story. Even short term disability, my DH is going 17 years where he works, he is only one of 8 that has never gone out on any disability or gotten a settlement from his company. I have been to houses to see settlements - pools, addition, hardwood floor- all legal but still abuse of a system.

If you are on three plus years, your life style is set in a pattern and most don't do much to change that. It's a great line to say when they go to school I will go back to work- that turns into another excuse and another, and this also happens often to mothers not getting assistance, they often never go back to work until they get a divorce. I have see no great successful stories in real life with those who receive assistance. I have seen family where it is a way of life because so many members are also on, you go on between husbands, you go off, it's a circle. 

I worked years doing staffing-I dealt with illegal immigrants, false papers, and ton and tons of people on assistance - all kinds. I have seen my fair share, this isn't just something I have stumbled on in recent. Very little has changed in the last few decades, time frames of only being allowed on for a few months only mean more ways to get around it or going off and oh, I'm pregnant and back on.

What I really have seen is change as far what and how people get away with things and attitudes that personal responsibility is no longer needed.

The bar as been lowered for so many things- this also being one of them. 30 is considered being a kid and no need to grow up and take care of a child yet in many eyes. 

[serenbat]

Quote:

So whats your solution?

Again, you keep saying temporary...what does that mean to you? how quickly can someone "better themselves" (your words)...what steps should they take? what does that look like to you, specifically?

sorry I wasn't fast enough for you! 

[serenbat]

Quote:

So whats your solution?

you must have missed the things I had said

Quote:

Also just a question and feel free to anwser, of there was no assistance and stamps available, would you choose to continue to stay at home or work ?

I see few choose to answer this yet it's easier to not

[pek64]

The temporary question should be answered by all.

What does temporary mean to each person posting?

[kathymuggle]

I think they are interesting questions, so I will answer both.

Originally Posted by couldbebetter29 

Also just a question and feel free to anwser, of there was no assistance and stamps available, would you choose to continue to stay at home or work ?

I am not on assistance and was only on it for about 18 months when I was a young adult.  The following answer is speculative.  It is impossible to place myself in the shoes of someone who is generationally poor.  That being said:

At this point in my life, I would not bring a child into this world if I could not afford one without assistance.   If I had a surprise, I would keep the baby.  Birth control is the 90% + range though, so I think I can prevent a surprise.  

I did indeed get pregnant on purpose at 23 with no real way of supporting the baby. The reasoning is complicated (or more long than complicated, so I won't get into it here).  I don't feel bad about getting pregnant with no money (it is kind of hard to with my beloved  now 17 year old playing video games 15 feet away).  He has not really wanted for anything in his life nor has he been raised in poverty.  Sometimes welfare is a just blip on the road….

I do not understand why people keep saying "choosing" to stay home.  Sometimes it is not a choice - jobs can be hard to find.  Many people do not have the resources to even try to find a job.  If I were on welfare I would look for a job.  Welfare and poverty sucks.  If there was no welfare, and I was just broke I would look for a job.  Poverty sucks.  I do not think I would look harder whether welfare existed or not.  Not being able to feed my children might cause me to do some drastic (perhaps illegal) things - surely having some safety net so people who cannot find work can feed their kids is a good thing?

Originally Posted by queenjane 

So whats your solution?

Again, you keep saying temporary...what does that mean to you? how quickly can someone "better themselves" (your words)...what steps should they take? what does that look like to you, specifically?

I don't think welfare should be temporary.  I think it should be tiered.  I think it should be generous for people who have never been on it before, or have not been on it in 10 years.  It should be generous enough that they have the resources to  look for work.  I think it should cover health care and daycare (so they can look for work) and could involve job placement or retraining.  If one is not making an honest attempt to find work, or it has been more than a certain amount of time (say 1 year, unless you luck into job retraining) I think welfare should drop down to a subsistence level.  It should be enough to cover very basic expenses.  I think everyone moving into the work world should have medical coverage for 3-6 months after leaving welfare.  It takes time to sort out private insurance, and I do suspect people stay on welfare sometimes for the medical coverage.   I think this because I am not overly interested in people starving in the streets or being homeless.  Really, I do not care if my taxes (of which I pay a fair amount ) go to feed people or give them basic shelter.   

Edited by kathymuggle - 2/1/13 at 6:09am

[kathymuggle]

I just looked up the average time to find a job - and it was about 20 weeks for younger workers, and 30 for older/higher paid workers.  This was 2012, USA.

I would hope temporary would cover this, at least.

[queenjane]

in my state welfare is 60 months maximum lifetime limit. where do people live that you can be on welfare from 16 to 30 as was posted upthread? And if your children are school age you have to go to school or get a job.