I feel like our 6 yo is running the family

[proudmamanow]

...into the ground!

My 6 yo is a bright, intense, sensory sensitive, anxious and passionate little person. And right now I feel like she is dragging the whole family down with her rude words, lack of respect for myself, my partner and her 3 yo sister, and general negative attitude. Nothing is good enough, we are all idiots, rats, her servants etc. This child has been lovingly AP parented, GD, homeschooled for 6 years, but I also have to say that we both do lose it with her from time to time, and that this has been happening more and more lately. She throws fits when things are not in line with her preferences, and the name calling, rudeness has been extending to her grandparents as well lately. I KNOW she is capable of holding it together when with friends, in activities and group settings. But I am really really really feeling at the end of my rope. I feel like our family life is about 30% joy and about 70% arguing, yelling and mean insults, mostly coming from my 6 yo . For the first time I am wondering if we really should be a whole lot more authoritarian than we have been, and am really questioning our whole GD approach as I feel like we have created this disrespectful tyrant and that we are ultimately doing her more harm than good. 

For her sensory issues, we have been working v. hard to address this: 6 months of OT, 3 months of listening therapy, we do lots of sensory activities and she has now been tested for food intolerances and has been on a gluten, dairy and egg free diet for 4 weeks. But things on the respect, helping, cooperation front seem to be getting worse and worse.

I have read: Kurcinka, Kohn, How to Talk, Becoming the Parent you want to be and now in desperation 1-2-3 Magic. I am feeling like we need a whole lot more tools if we are going to see this girl through to adulthood with a peaceful, happy home. 

Sigh. Thanks for listening, open to new ideas or anything really!!

[frugalmum]

I wrote an almost identical post about my 9 year in preteens a while ago-- like your DD she also was single handedly (and at times, seemingly gleefully) destroying our family dynamic with her insults, cruelty, demands, total lack of respect and boundaries (I don't mean parental respect, but just general humane respect for other people) and self proclaimed drama-queenishness.  She too was raised in a very gentle AP household, never heard insults or foul language, was never physically punished, and it wasn't until she got totally out of control that we started to lose it and occasionally yell. 

We did end up taking an authoritarian stance with her though I still consider how we treat her to be GD in spirit.  I figured out that the gentle, connected, "talk to me about your feelings" approach did not work with her (though it works with all my others).  In fact if I showed any empathy or emotion (positive or negative) toward her during her fits, it was like feeding a fire.  I now have a step by step process I go through with her if she starts to tantrum/ throw fits/ insult others. 

I established clear rules and boundaries with her.  No insulting parents or siblings, no screaming, no taking over public spaces as her own (this was a huge issue with her, she declared the living room her new bedroom and the sofa her new bed, and became hysterical if we got near either).  No making threats against us or herself.  No hitting, shoving, or causing harm to others even "accidentally."  If she did any of these things she would be given one warning and the chance to apologize and do something helpful for the household (like clean bathrooms or some other chore).  If she continues to act out after the warning, she loses TV/ computer privileges.  Depending on how bad it was the loss lasts anywhere from 1 day to 1 week.  (She loves VG so this is a very big deal for her.  Another child might need some other privilege taken away.)

I also made sure she was doing her share of household chores.  All the kids are expected to help, but I was careful to make sure she wasn't slacking off.  If she starts acting out I might give her extra chores-- I found this is a good focus for her, as it takes her mind off the tantrum and redirects it to being a helpful part of the household.

I remain completely emotionless but calm & stern when she starts to tantrum, I remind her what acceptable behavior is and how her current behavior is not acceptable.  I do not show any emotion at all until she has calmed down and is able to talk without screaming or throwing threats or insults.  Then I do show her a lot of love and try to have a meaningful conversation with her about acceptable behavior and treating others well.

So in short, we have very clear boundaries with her, we have immediate consequences when she doesn't respect the boundaries, and we don't back down.  I found it was crucial not to show any emotion while she is tantruming-- I don't know why this works but at least with her, it does.

My other kids respond beautifully to "classic" GD so that is what we use with them, and honestly we hardly ever have to discipline them at all.  She is the only one we've had serious problems with.

[proudmamanow]

Thanks for your insight, frugal mum, this is very very helpful. She is also not a kid who likes to talk about how she is feeling and especially not in the moment....it needs to be at another, more relaxed time. I think us staying calm is also really important, I know she has been very successfully pushing both our buttons lately and we need some strategies to stay calm. 

I think given her particularly personality, structures and rules are something that can really help her, if a then b, that kind of thing. I am a very flexible, easygoing person and I'm increasingly realizing that this does not work with her...

Thanks so much for your thoughtful post. Other insights welcome! 

[NellieKatz]

When I read this quote ("She too was raised in a very gentle AP household, never heard insults or foul language, was never physically punished, and it wasn't until she got totally out of control that we started to lose it and occasionally yell.") it kind of made me think that people may be misunderstanding what the GD label means?

Now, I don't follow any textbook definition of GD, but I take it to mean no physical punishment and no coercion or force unless absolutely necessary, such as for safety & all that. Maybe I'm getting that wrong. But that's sort of my own guideline. I remember thinking, years ago, that we were being GD when we used to impose time-outs, but we'd have to physically bring our son TO the time out and somehow confine him IN the time out, and of course he'd kick and scream and bite and rant the whole time--hardly gentle! Took me a while to figure that one out. But what I saw in this quote is a dynamic I see quite frequently, and not just with kids. It happens between adults too, and it's a sort of assertiveness/boundaries question.

In my opinion, if you "sound" or "act" gentle but you are seriously feeling violated, but you just manage to "stay calm" and "talk lovingly" and all that, and someday you blow up, none of that has been gentle...not to the kid, not to you. (and the kid can sense it) Right? On the other hand, in a situation where the family rules (i.e. treat each other with respect, no hitting, etc) are being enforced and conflicts are being handled assertively (not aggressively) as they happen by ANY family member, then no one is sort of a seething powder-keg getting ready to blow.

This isn't just directed at the posters on this thread. My own husband tends to do this. His self-image and his "role" in his family of origin is the nice one, the agreeable one, easy-going, etc. But he gets taken advantage of that way, and sort of pushed around. He then suffers from depression and anger (hardly a surprise), and when my son continues to torment my husband on a certain thing, he eventually blows up at our son because he has not been defending his own rights (i.e. being calmly, firmly assertive) all along.

So I guess if I weren't being so verbose, I'd sum it up  "Gentle discipline also means being gentle on ourselves. Not letting our own rights get trampled for so long that we end up yelling or worse."

[mamakay]

One of my kids just seemed to crave/need more authority, too.

The method I used (still use, but at close to 8 now, he's actually become fairly mellow most days) is:

1) when things with him are getting out of control, he goes to his room, for at least 2 seconds, and he can come back when he's ready to act nicer

2) if he refuses to go to his room, privileges start being removed, or he gets grounded.

[neverknowingly1]

Hello everyone. I am new to this site. So far I can pick up pieces of information that are helpful for me to relate to, and how to conduct myself around my fiance's children. His boy is four and his girl is six.

Now I've been seeing GD and AP tossed around a lot on these posts. Would someone be so kind as to explain this to me please? I feel that I may not get the answers to the questions and concerns I have because I am not caught up on the terminology and want to make my points clear.

I have been struggling a little bit lately with.....well just everything in general, but also particularly when I spend a lot of time around these two kids. I have reluctantly agreed to become their nanny for the summer since my job laid me off. (Huge low blow to the self-esteem). My patience with children in particular has never been a strong characteristic for me. You see, I had no younger siblings, and although I have a sister twelve years older than I, I was basically raised like an only child--an extremely sheltered one with very little social contact.

So I'm in a tug-of-war in my head, trying to figure out if my feelings of frustration (when it gets to that point) are normal for a future step-mother, or if it's still a deeply personal issue I still need to work on with my psychologist. Yes, I get frustrated, and even more so when I don't feel like I'm being heard by my partner about what is truly bothering me. He is way more dismissive about things than I am at times.

After much thought about it a few nights ago, I realized part of my deep frustration stems from my unconditional love for my partner; he works hard and didn't have an easy time at all with their mother when him and her were together. Anyway, I get frustrated when the children's cooperation breaks down I want to correct the situation before it keeps getting out of hand; and besides, he's a great man who works hard every single day to provide for them and he deserves to have well-mannered, and happy children. Of course they are probably too young to understand things like gratitude and appreciation, but my god I hope it starts dawning on them pretty soon how special they are to their daddy and how hard he works in order to make the money for us all to go out and do fun activities.

Anyway, his daughter has been acting up lately and it has got to stop, for the sake of everyone in our small, pseudo family unit. I have read a few other threads and can relate with the mothers out there who report their 6 yr olds throwing fits and tantrums because they didn't get their way. (she goes first all the time on everything---even when it's not her turn), her attitude sucks too----pouting over every single little thing. This is no exaggeration, EVERY little thing provokes pouting out of this little girl. It's more than I can bear sometimes. Over the weekend we shot of rockets in the park. The last one of the day was slightly dangerous. Instead of the rocket going off when a control button is pushed, it took off as soon as my partner connected the tiny prongs to the appropriate place, blowing some smoke in his face. A tiny amount of fire is discharged when this happens, like a fire cracker. Needless to say when the thing went off literally in his face we called it quits. She was severely disappointed by this and pouted and pouted and pouted away for about ten minutes while we cleaned up. (she has a listening issue as well) We explained to her and her brother right after that rocket took off that we were done for the day because it was getting dangerous.......for all of us. After some time of her pouting she started complaining, "i want to do another rocket, i want to do another rooockeeeettt" (you know how it is).  I was upset, and her father had finally had his fill of her shitty attitude too and said something along the lines of "so you want daddy to get hurt." she then perked up a little to listen, so her daddy said once again, "you being mad like this tells me that you WANT daddy to get hurt, and that's not very nice at all."  Then he had to explain to her, again, why the rockets weren't safe anymore. (again, listening issue).

I could continue on and on and on, but that's enough for now,  Please help me with some suggestions and actions that have worked with you and your children. Some days I'm at wits end and want to just scream and shout. Any advice would be very very much appreciated.

Thanks

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by proudmamanow 

Thanks for your insight, frugal mum, this is very very helpful. She is also not a kid who likes to talk about how she is feeling and especially not in the moment....it needs to be at another, more relaxed time. I think us staying calm is also really important, I know she has been very successfully pushing both our buttons lately and we need some strategies to stay calm. 

I think given her particularly personality, structures and rules are something that can really help her, if a then b, that kind of thing. I am a very flexible, easygoing person and I'm increasingly realizing that this does not work with her...

Thanks so much for your thoughtful post. Other insights welcome! 

Given what you said above, I think you should absolutely go for a more authoritative approach. You don't seem to have much to lose at this point just by trying it. If you look up the definition of authoritative vs. authoritarian parenting, you'll see that there's some pretty significance differences. I don't think authoritative parenting and attachment parenting/gentle discipline are mutually exclusive at all.

[Alenushka]

What worked for us is this :

removal of privileges

earlier bedtime

time out in the room

natural consequences (if you do not set the table, two thing happens a) dinner is not served. b) certain amount is deducted form your allowance.)

Granted, I did not read most of the parenting books mentioned. I do not believes in spanking but I also do not believes in talking to my kids about there feeling all the freaking time. I do not care what someone's feeling are when they are refusing to set the table, clean the litter box, or help me with groceries. My work does not care  what my feeling are....I show up and work. I come home and make dinner.  There is such things as duty and things that need to be done.

[LynnS6]

The essence of AP is meeting  your child's needs, right? Well some children have a strong need for firm, clear boundaries. They can be lovingly enforced, but their personality/temperament is such that they need to know where they stand. Once they do, they're usually more content.
 

Originally Posted by frugalmum 
So in short, we have very clear boundaries with her, we have immediate consequences when she doesn't respect the boundaries, and we don't back down.  I found it was crucial not to show any emotion while she is tantruming-- I don't know why this works but at least with her, it does.

My suspicion is that when she's out of control, she's looking to you to be her locus of control. In the emotional development terms, she still needs you to help her co-regulate her emotions. Children don't go from having unregulated emotions to having regulated emotions all by themselves. They learn to regulate their emotions by working with the adults in their environment. So, they go from no self-regulation to co-regulation  to self-regulation. Some children need more help than others in terms of this regulation. OP, since your daughter has SPD, you know  that she has difficulties with self-regulation (that's essentially what SPD is). She's going to need you to help her regulate longer than other children. Clear boundaries are one way you can help her regulate herself. It may not be as 'natural' to you, but it will be more helpful for her.

The other piece of this is that when she's completely unregulated (having a tantrum), she's in no state to learn anything. Remember that this is not a teachable moment. For my SPD kid any talk while he's upset just makes him more upset. It's sensory overload when his system is already overloaded.

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

What worked for us is this :

removal of privileges

earlier bedtime

time out in the room

natural consequences (if you do not set the table, two thing happens a) dinner is not served. b) certain amount is deducted form your allowance.)

Granted, I did not read most of the parenting books mentioned. I do not believes in spanking but I also do not believes in talking to my kids about there feeling all the freaking time. I do not care what someone's feeling are when they are refusing to set the table, clean the litter box, or help me with groceries. My work does not care  what my feeling are....I show up and work. I come home and make dinner.  There is such things as duty and things that need to be done.

Your post makes me a little sad. Your work doesn't care what your feelings are, but I would hope that your family does. My children do their duty not because they're paid to (as they will when they work), but for the sake of the family and for the relationships that we have. I can ask my kids to crawl under the table and get something for me (because I'm too big to do it easily) and they will happily do it 9 times out of 10. Why? Not because it's their 'duty' but because they genuinely like to be helpful.

I'd also like to point out that this is a gentle discipline board. There are certainly a range of parenting approaches that fall under the umbrella of GD, but to have 'removal of privileges' be your first choice is not GD  in my opinion. What does your child learn from that? I'm fairly strict with my children, but I try very hard to avoid punishments (removal of privileges, deducting from allowance).

Also, there's a difference between 'logical' and 'natural' consequences. Natural consequences are the things that happen naturally on the basis of your actions. If you fail to put your laundry in the hamper, you do not have any clean clothes. 'Logical' consequences are imposed, but are related. If you fail to put your clothing in the hamper, I'm not going to play a game with you until it's done. We use both in our house, but I try very hard to have the logical consequences be something that will teach my child, not just punish.

 

Edited by LynnS6 - 6/17/11 at 12:30am

[mamazee]

One of my kids tantrumed for a long time, until she was 6, and what I found was that she was needing to learn that things weren't always going to go her way - the concept of futility, that someimtes we don't get what we want no matter how badly we want it and how badly we fuss. I let her tantrum and go through that learning process without judgment, but I also was calm and relaxed and didn't become emotional at all when she tantrumed, as that just seemed to agitate her and make her feel less safe or something. Me being a calm rock to hold onto seemed to help her more. But she'd have her tantrums, and I'd just let her have them. I'd briefly empathize, "You really wanted X." And I'd try to keep us "on the same side" through it. "I wish ice cream were a healthy food and ok for dinner, that would be awesome." And then I'd let her go through this learning process and have her tantrum. She'd have it, and then she'd want some love, and then she'd get on with life. And now she understands that things don't always go her way and is fine with it. She's still emotional and intense, as that just seems to be her temperament, but she moves on from things easily and without tantrums now.

I found that sometimes when she was building up to a tantrum, she'd behave in the way you're describing. I kind of thought of that as a pre-tantrum. I'd kind of brace myself and prepare for the tantrum, but I wouldn't tiptoe around her. The tantrum was inevitable at that point. And I think of tantrums as a way some kids learn and not a problem in and of themselves, so I'd just try to relax about the fact that one was coming. I'd have no problems telling her "You may not speak to me in that manner" even if that would be the final trigger for the tantrum. I don't think trying to avoid tantrums by allowing name calling or hitting or by giving something unhealthy helps anything. Again, I don't see tantrums in and of themselves as a problem so if they come, they come. I try to get through them rather than stop them.

One other thing I'd look at though is her diet. My daughter's behavior was and still is much better when she was a protein-based breakfast, like eggs, instead of a grain-based breakfast, like cereal. And she can't handle anything sweet at all in the morning - not even juice, and certainly not pancakes with syrup or anything liket that. I don't understand exactly why, but she is and was a much calmer child after a protein-based breakfast, and the difference lasts all the way to bedtime.

Also, I think kids do much better physically if they get lots of physical outside time. If she's having a bad day, a trip to the park and some running-around time might help.

[oaktreemama]

I would like to nominate LynnS6 to be an expert on GD in the ATE forum. :)

Your advice is consistently kind, fair, compassionate, and MOST important-doable. SO much of what passes as expert advice seems to be given from inside a bubble. Hiring help, moving to the country, going to bed with a five year old, cancelling all activities...A lot of it simply can't be applied to the real world and LynnS6's posts can.

You rock. I have learned a ton from your posts.

[Kerynna]

I think it's entirely possible for removal of privileges to be consistent with your view of logical consequences in a gentle discipline environment.  I'll give an example:  when my dd was a pre-teen, she often spent too much time on the computer using Instant Messenger to chat with her friends, rather than get her homework done.  After gently reminding her 2 or 3 times, it became time for a logical consequence.  That is when I removed her privilege of using the family computer, and worked with her at the kitchen table to complete her homework.

Children's (and pre-teens') brains lack the ability for sufficient impulse control.  Therefore, we, as parents, need to impose that control when the child demonstrates that they are unable to do it on their own.  I don't see any conflice with gentle discipline if removal of privileges is administered mindfully.
 

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

The essence of AP is meeting  your child's needs, right? Well some children have a strong need for firm, clear boundaries. They can be lovingly enforced, but their personality/temperament is such that they need to know where they stand. Once they do, they're usually more content.
 

My suspicion is that when she's out of control, she's looking to you to be her locus of control. In the emotional development terms, she still needs you to help her co-regulate her emotions. Children don't go from having unregulated emotions to having regulated emotions all by themselves. They learn to regulate their emotions by working with the adults in their environment. So, they go from no self-regulation to co-regulation  to self-regulation. Some children need more help than others in terms of this regulation. OP, since your daughter has SPD, you know  that she has difficulties with self-regulation (that's essentially what SPD is). She's going to need you to help her regulate longer than other children. Clear boundaries are one way you can help her regulate herself. It may not be as 'natural' to you, but it will be more helpful for her.

The other piece of this is that when she's completely unregulated (having a tantrum), she's in no state to learn anything. Remember that this is not a teachable moment. For my SPD kid any talk while he's upset just makes him more upset. It's sensory overload when his system is already overloaded.

Your post makes me a little sad. Your work doesn't care what your feelings are, but I would hope that your family does. My children do their duty not because they're paid to (as they will when they work), but for the sake of the family and for the relationships that we have. I can ask my kids to crawl under the table and get something for me (because I'm too big to do it easily) and they will happily do it 9 times out of 10. Why? Not because it's their 'duty' but because they genuinely like to be helpful.

I'd also like to point out that this is a gentle discipline board. There are certainly a range of parenting approaches that fall under the umbrella of GD, but to have 'removal of privileges' be your first choice is not GD  in my opinion. What does your child learn from that? I'm fairly strict with my children, but I try very hard to avoid punishments (removal of privileges, deducting from allowance).

Also, there's a difference between 'logical' and 'natural' consequences. Natural consequences are the things that happen naturally on the basis of your actions. If you fail to put your laundry in the hamper, you do not have any clean clothes. 'Logical' consequences are imposed, but are related. If you fail to put your clothing in the hamper, I'm not going to play a game with you until it's done. We use both in our house, but I try very hard to have the logical consequences be something that will teach my child, not just punish.

 

[Alenushka]

I think not yelling at kids, not loosing it and not spanking them is gentle.  I think asking about child's feeling all the time and ending up with a 3-4-5-6-12 yo who rules the family, mom loosing it and not is happy, is not so gentle.

Have you notices how much of life does not care about our feelings? Police who gives speeding tickets, bossed who fire people for being late, teachers who who give F for work not being done?

I think having some computer time taken away for throwing a tantrum instead of setting is very gentle compare to that.  I always give a warning .

We also discuss thing after wards, "How this could have been avoided?. "

Different things work for  different people. Last week I was ill. My teen,  (who from what I understand form American cultures , should be door slamming self obsess horrors), made me amazing two color Jello from scratch. He knows it is my favorite food when I am sick.  It was red cubes and pink heart on top.

My young son comes with me to our zen center on the set up day. Does he have too? No, but he does  and he helps. Why? Because he sees me do it shine or rain, sad or happy  to fulfill my promise, my obligation, my duty to others

To me , boundaries and consequences are part of gentle love. My and my DH duty is prepare kids for the boundaries and consequence of real world where they will have to deal with thing and people who do not  always care about their feeling or motivations but care about results.

[Lisa1970]

Gentle discipline does not mean no discipline. Set up clear rules and consequences. I use time out, extra chores, taking away priviledges. You can tailor it to the family. I also use role play. Sometimes, a child just does not know how they should have responded. But, you need to set up consequences and spell out to her what will be going on from now on. You and your dh need to be on the same page on this and very consistent. Don't act angry, just act logical about it. You can say stuff like "I see you chose to ____ so I guess you chose to <consequence>."

[Tigerchild]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

I'd also like to point out that this is a gentle discipline board. There are certainly a range of parenting approaches that fall under the umbrella of GD, but to have 'removal of privileges' be your first choice is not GD  in my opinion. What does your child learn from that? I'm fairly strict with my children, but I try very hard to avoid punishments (removal of privileges, deducting from allowance).

I would say that's very much in your opinion, and my opinion is that I disagree with you.  I have one child who does need very structured expectations and consequences.  There are some actions that result in removal of privileges as a first step--however this has been discussed in advance.  They're fairly serious behaviors.  In MY opinion, I still very much practice gentle discipline.  I might use certain tools differently than you, but I can guarantee you that I respect (and treat with respect) my children as much as you probably do, but the structure we've found that works with my kids might be different than what works with yours.
 

[LynnS6]

If you read the first part of my post, you would see that I advocated for very firm boundaries for the OP's child -- not out of punitiveness but because it's clear that she needs those boundaries. I've got one child who is incredibly self-controlled (my child with SPD, ironically), and one child who isn't. My child who isn't needs both clear boundaries and a lot of emotional care. She's a highly dramatic child and needs a ton of help in regulating herself.

I also agree that many parents spend too much time talking when it's either not situationally appropriate (the child is out of control) or developmentally appropriate. Less is often more. That's one of the major messages in "How to Talk So Children Will Listen..." (which the poster I was responding to admits to never having read). We actually spend very little time talking about feelings other than when my dd is having an emotion related meltdown. 

For the record: My kids have lost privileges. I sent dd to bed early the other night after she hit her brother. Why? Because it was very very clear to me that her behavior was because she was overtired. No amount of reasoning or talking would have done any good. She was out of control. Thus, my sending her to bed was the first consequence of her action. (And quite honestly, I was tired too and could not trust myself to parent her gently if she stayed.) She raged for 15 minutes in her room, she read for 15 minutes in her room and then she apologized to her brother, and went to sleep. I didn't have to tell her that her actions were wrong; she knew it.

Originally Posted by Kerynna 

I think it's entirely possible for removal of privileges to be consistent with your view of logical consequences in a gentle discipline environment.  I'll give an example:  when my dd was a pre-teen, she often spent too much time on the computer using Instant Messenger to chat with her friends, rather than get her homework done.  After gently reminding her 2 or 3 times, it became time for a logical consequence.  That is when I removed her privilege of using the family computer, and worked with her at the kitchen table to complete her homework.

Children's (and pre-teens') brains lack the ability for sufficient impulse control.  Therefore, we, as parents, need to impose that control when the child demonstrates that they are unable to do it on their own.  I don't see any conflice with gentle discipline if removal of privileges is administered mindfully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerynna 

Children's (and pre-teens') brains lack the ability for sufficient impulse control.  Therefore, we, as parents, need to impose that control when the child demonstrates that they are unable to do it on their own.  I don't see any conflice with gentle discipline if removal of privileges is administered mindfully.

Originally Posted by Tigerchild 
I would say that's very much in your opinion, and my opinion is that I disagree with you.  I have one child who does need very structured expectations and consequences.  There are some actions that result in removal of privileges as a first step--however this has been discussed in advance.  They're fairly serious behaviors.  In MY opinion, I still very much practice gentle discipline.  I might use certain tools differently than you, but I can guarantee you that I respect (and treat with respect) my children as much as you probably do, but the structure we've found that works with my kids might be different than what works with yours.

I would point out that for these, removal of privileges was not a first step. It was a second or third step. In these cases, you have thought about what the problem is, and made a decision to impose consequences based on the issue at hand.

That's different than saying "the first thing I'd do is remove a privilege" because "there is such a thing as duty". I would still maintain that's a punitive mindset that may not be compatible with my definition of GD. And yes, I put that out there because I think the board is veering away from GD and it bothers me. I learned a ton from other parents who were advocating a radically different approach than I took/take. It really made me stop and think about what I was doing and why I was doing it. I very often didn't follow those approaches, but I don't think it's a bad thing to question your assumptions. I quit doing punitive time outs because of some more 'radical' posters here, and I'm glad.

[Tigerchild]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

I would point out that for these, removal of privileges was not a first step. It was a second or third step. In these cases, you have thought about what the problem is, and made a decision to impose consequences based on the issue at hand.

I think you may be splitting hairs here, perhaps because you feel that things are "veering off" of GD on the forum at large and so you're assuming the worst?  I see no evidence that the person who said removal was their first step meant there was absolutely no forethought of history of discussion.  I think she meant that there is no counting down, no 3 reminders, no discussion *at that time of the behavior*, but that consequences are imposed when the behavior happens.  I think it may be a tad oversensitive and not very generous to assume that a poster has not bothered to think in advance or notify their child in advance, when they say it's a first step *in the context of what actions they immediately take while a behavior is going on.*

[mamakay]

I think stuff like this is GD:

http://www.childrensmemorial.org/ce/online/article.aspx?articleID=106

Parent training is the only empirically supported well-established treatment for children with a behavior disorder, [6] regardless of the etiology of the behavior disorder. Other treatments may be necessary if the behavior disorder is concomitant with another mental health disorder, such as ADHD. The essential elements of parent training programs teach parents basic skills, including differential attention (ie, praising positive behavior, ignoring negative behavior), limit setting, use of consequences, time-out, and other discipline strategies.

It also helped me bring my "spirited" kid from "probably diagnosable with ODD" into the realm of normality. When I was really freaked out with worry that my kid was going to be diagnosed with a disorder, I was kind of over trying to only use logical and natural consequences and stuff. What I really needed him to learn was that he was no longer allowed to act "like that" any more.

[loraxc]

OP, I really sympathize with you. My DD is very similar and we also have a lot of frustrating times. I do find that she requires a different kind of parenting, one that does not come naturally to me at all. More structure, more boundaries, more if-then clear rules.

We actually made up a list of rules that she keeps in her room. We frequently send her to read them and then ask her to tell us which rule was broken and how. We also have a behavior chart similar to the one she had in first grade, which she responded to very well at school. She starts each day in the middle and can move down *or up*.

I also bought a little handclicker of the type people use to count laps and use it to track positive behaviors like saying yes politely the first time when asked to do something. This is motivating to her. When she gets enough clicks, she moves up the chart.

To repeat, this is NOT NOT NOT my natural style of parenting. At all! But it's been where we've ended up with this kid. Her brother is much more straightforward to handle and responds well to much more intuitive and low-key discipline.