Gifted or Smart? Should I look into formal testing?

[delphine]

Good morning!

My husband and I have been contemplating having our older son (9 years old, just finished 3rd grade) officiallly tested for giftedness.  Due to the high cost of the testing, we had decided to wait until we got the results of the assessment tests they do in school. 

So, we got the test results back last week, and I am now more unsure than ever on whether to go through formal assessment.  I wonder if anyone else can shed some light on this for me.

The testing they do is called Terra Nova and the only test results they send home are the percentiles in each area.  DS scores below:

Reading:  98th

Vocabulary:  98th

Reading Composite:   99th

Language: 80th

Language Mechanics:  70th

Language Composite:  82nd

Math:  88th

Math Compu:  99th

Math Composite:  96th

Total Score:  94th

Science:  93rd

Social Studies:  92nd

Spelling:  81st

Word Analysis:  96th

So, while he did very well on some areas, his scores are across the board.  I guess I figured he would either score top marks across the board or average scores, and that would make my decision for me. 

Additional information:  His year end SRI (Lexile) score was 964.  Also, his school (small, Catholic school) does not have a formal gifted program but I was hoping to have some grounds for some single subject acceleration. 

Thoughts?

[ollyoxenfree]

I'm not familiar with the Terra Nova, but based on the categories (science, social studies, spelling), it looks like it might be an achievement test. I question the helpfulness of achievement tests. They are far more likely to depend on whether a child has had exposure to specific content that the test covers, whether there were issues with how the content was taught, etc. and it may not be a reliable indicator of intellectual ability. If "language mechanics" is basically using proper grammar and if he hasn't been taught grammar rules, the score is pretty meaningless. There are other things that may have interfered as well - if he has written expression issues or slower processing speed (common in gifted students, especially boys), and language mechanics was assessed on the basis of a creative writing task - then that explains the lower score, but doesn't mean he isn't gifted. 

I would start with getting more information about this test, so you understand the results. Was it a group test administered to all students or individually done? Was there a school psychologist involved? Ask the principal or the school psychologist for some literature about the test or  ask for a meeting to review the results. 

How receptive is the school to subject acceleration and other accommodations? If the school is supportive, then you won't have to do any further testing, unless you are contemplating admission to some of the gifted programs out there.

Without knowing more, just looking at his high scores in reading and math, it seems like he'd benefit from some accommodations if he is finding the regular class work is material he already knows, or it doesn't engage him, and he's distracted in class.

[Linda on the move]

Because the only reason you list for wanting IQ testing is having him accelerated for one subject and the test is expensive, I would try to get the subject acceleration without paying for the test.

Have you talked to them about subject acceleration?

Both his math and reading scores are very high. Does he seem bored and unchallenged in one or both of those areas? Besides the tests scores you listed, what are your reasons for wanting to accelerate him?

May be formulating a nice letter with bullets points would help you get what you think is best for him.

[Tigerle]

Originally Posted by delphine 

So, while he did very well on some areas, his scores are across the board. 

What board is that?

really, most of his scores are in the high nineties, some in the low-to-mid-nineties. the few scores sticking out somewhat (though still above-average), like spelling and language mechanics, seem to be rule-based, heavily rote-memory dependent stuff. If you needed gifted identification, scores like these would certainly be a reason for further testing for me. However, like others have pointed out, if it is subject acceleration rather than formal gifted ID that you are after, it looks as if you've got grounds right there, and gifted testing might not be necessary at all.

[delphine]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

I'm not familiar with the Terra Nova, but based on the categories (science, social studies, spelling), it looks like it might be an achievement test. I question the helpfulness of achievement tests. They are far more likely to depend on whether a child has had exposure to specific content that the test covers, whether there were issues with how the content was taught, etc. and it may not be a reliable indicator of intellectual ability. If "language mechanics" is basically using proper grammar and if he hasn't been taught grammar rules, the score is pretty meaningless. There are other things that may have interfered as well - if he has written expression issues or slower processing speed (common in gifted students, especially boys), and language mechanics was assessed on the basis of a creative writing task - then that explains the lower score, but doesn't mean he isn't gifted. 

I would start with getting more information about this test, so you understand the results. Was it a group test administered to all students or individually done? Was there a school psychologist involved? Ask the principal or the school psychologist for some literature about the test or  ask for a meeting to review the results. 

How receptive is the school to subject acceleration and other accommodations? If the school is supportive, then you won't have to do any further testing, unless you are contemplating admission to some of the gifted programs out there.

Without knowing more, just looking at his high scores in reading and math, it seems like he'd benefit from some accommodations if he is finding the regular class work is material he already knows, or it doesn't engage him, and he's distracted in class.

Yes, it's an achievement test.  One that all of the students take annually.   To my knowledge, there was no school psychologist involved.  I guess I was hoping that it would give us some insight on where he stands academically.  He's always done extremely well in school but we've had some past issues with behavior.  I haven't even brought up any sort of acceleration because it doesn't seem to be something that is typically done here and he's been pretty immature socially, so I worried about putting him with older peers.  However, he had a great third grade year in terms of social skills and behavior, so we have begun to look into what is going to be best for him academically. 

There was no creative essay section, but I am highly interested in your comment about written expression and processing speed.  The one thing he seems to struggle with a bit is writing essays.  For him, it's been more of a matter that he spends so much time trying to figure out how to say something in as few words as possible that he ends up spending more time than he would have just writing his first thoughts.  Do you have any more information on this?

Thanks so much for the input.
 

[delphine]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Because the only reason you list for wanting IQ testing is having him accelerated for one subject and the test is expensive, I would try to get the subject acceleration without paying for the test.

Have you talked to them about subject acceleration?

Both his math and reading scores are very high. Does he seem bored and unchallenged in one or both of those areas? Besides the tests scores you listed, what are your reasons for wanting to accelerate him?

May be formulating a nice letter with bullets points would help you get what you think is best for him.

We have not talked to the school about subject acceleration.  I guess, until doing some research recently, I thought that was something they would approach us about if they thought it was a good fit. 

I think my biggest concern is that, so far, he has not had to put one bit of effort into school.  I don't know that he's bored exactly but he is definitely not challenged.  I don't want him to not learn how to be challenged...does that make sense?  So, that would be my reasoning for acceleration.

[delphine]

Originally Posted by Tigerle 

What board is that?

really, most of his scores are in the high nineties, some in the low-to-mid-nineties. the few scores sticking out somewhat (though still above-average), like spelling and language mechanics, seem to be rule-based, heavily rote-memory dependent stuff. If you needed gifted identification, scores like these would certainly be a reason for further testing for me. However, like others have pointed out, if it is subject acceleration rather than formal gifted ID that you are after, it looks as if you've got grounds right there, and gifted testing might not be necessary at all.

Yeah, I know...they are very good scores.  I guess I feel like if they were all 99%tile, I could march in there and say, "Look, clearly his needs are not being met where he is", but I feel like they will say he should just work harder on the areas where he could improve, ya know?

re: the formal testing.  One of the other reasons we haven't gone that route is that, really, we probably wouldn't change anything at this point regardless of the scores.  At least as far as his school.  He attends a small, private school which we love for many reasons.  It has a great sense of community, great enrichment programs like art, music and Spanish etc.  Even the local public schools do not have gifted programs to my knowledge.  So, it seemed like a lot of money to spend just to "know". 

[whatsnextmom]

Can't help with the Terra Nova but I think the real key is does the SCHOOL really need private test scores to subject accelerate him? The ones around here will do it based on shown achievement in high ability areas. He did well on his schools test, are you sure they won't accept these scores for subject acceleration?

Personally, we didn't test until it was neccessary and even then, just through the school. DD wasn't tested until age 12 and only because there was a special high school program she needed scores for. DS tested in 2nd grade because they tested ALL the kids routinely for GATE and they did a little testing for learning disabilities with him. I wouldn't spend the money unless you really had to have those scores.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by delphine 

Yes, it's an achievement test.  One that all of the students take annually.   To my knowledge, there was no school psychologist involved.  I guess I was hoping that it would give us some insight on where he stands academically.  He's always done extremely well in school but we've had some past issues with behavior.  I haven't even brought up any sort of acceleration because it doesn't seem to be something that is typically done here and he's been pretty immature socially, so I worried about putting him with older peers.  However, he had a great third grade year in terms of social skills and behavior, so we have begun to look into what is going to be best for him academically. 

There was no creative essay section, but I am highly interested in your comment about written expression and processing speed.  The one thing he seems to struggle with a bit is writing essays.  For him, it's been more of a matter that he spends so much time trying to figure out how to say something in as few words as possible that he ends up spending more time than he would have just writing his first thoughts.  Do you have any more information on this?

Thanks so much for the input.
 

Thanks for the clarification about the test. I wondered whether the school had referred him for testing, as part of an academic assessment, since that suggests they are already considering accommodations for him, or if it was a general test given to all students. In your shoes, just for better understanding, I'd ask about the test. I'd want to know a little more about each subtest and also about the scores. For example, are the percentile scores based on a comparison to his schoolmates or to a wider test group (your city, state, the whole country) or norms from previous test populations. I'm not sure exactly what you will do with the information, to be honest  , but I think it's a good idea to understand what's going on, especially if you will be talking to educators who will know and can sometimes use that knowledge as an advantage. 

Regarding written output, this is a fairly common discussion topic here. If you use search terms like "writing issues" "written expression" "dysgraphia", you will find many threads on it (and also at Hoagies Gifted site, and on the web). BTW, I'm not suggesting your DS has dysgraphia, but it's a term that appears a lot in these discussions. I don't have any bookmarks anymore, I'm afraid, since we dealt with this years ago. There is some difference of opinion about whether it is better to wait it out and see if the child resolves writing problems on his own, finding his own coping strategies. Personally, we didn't think that was a good idea and worked with our DS to develop his writing ability. It took a while and he'll never be a professional writer, but he consistently turns in good work now. 

For your DS, it sounds like he might benefit from a couple of tactics that DS used - an initial point-form "brain dump" about the topic, mind mapping headings/subtopics/issues, setting out a thesis as a guide, and then organizing BEFORE he starts trying to write a draft. It took a while for him to realize that this was often quicker than trying to craft a perfect, final product from the beginning.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by delphine 

There was no creative essay section, but I am highly interested in your comment about written expression and processing speed.  The one thing he seems to struggle with a bit is writing essays.  For him, it's been more of a matter that he spends so much time trying to figure out how to say something in as few words as possible that he ends up spending more time than he would have just writing his first thoughts.  Do you have any more information on this?
 

My 9 yo isn't in school but sounds similar.  He had to take a standardized test last year in 3rd grade as part of our state's homeschool law.  Language mechanics was one of the things on which he scored lowest.  That just meant he didn't know when to use commas and apostrophes.  No surprise since he had never been taught that.  He had picked up punctuation at the end of sentences and a few other things on his own. 

For writing, we usually handle it by having him dictate while I type.  Then, we go over what he wrote and decide if anything was redundant or if sentences should be reordered.  If he has to hand write or type himself while he is composing what to write, it becomes all about how to say things as simply and with as few words as possible.  He'll dumb down his language.  His composition will be unrecognizable compared to how it is when he dictates.  So we separate the two things, composition and physical handwriting or typing.  If you want to stay out of the process, you could try having him use a recorder of some sort.  He could also write every sentence on a post-it note so he can reorder them easily (we just do cut and paste on the computer).  Ollyoxenfree's ideas sound good.  My own ds would be very resistant to what seems like more work but I feel we are laying the groundwork for that kind of thing.  He'll have those methods in place when he is ready/willing/needs to do things more independently.
 

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by 4evermom 

For writing, we usually handle it by having him dictate while I type.  Then, we go over what he wrote and decide if anything was redundant or if sentences should be reordered.  If he has to hand write or type himself while he is composing what to write, it becomes all about how to say things as simply and with as few words as possible.  He'll dumb down his language.  His composition will be unrecognizable compared to how it is when he dictates.  So we separate the two things, composition and physical handwriting or typing.  If you want to stay out of the process, you could try having him use a recorder of some sort.  He could also write every sentence on a post-it note so he can reorder them easily (we just do cut and paste on the computer).  Ollyoxenfree's ideas sound good.  My own ds would be very resistant to what seems like more work but I feel we are laying the groundwork for that kind of thing.  He'll have those methods in place when he is ready/willing/needs to do things more independently.
 

Yep, I scribed for DS as well, especially at that age - 8, 9, 10 y.o. and it was very helpful. 

And yes, at first he also resisted using the tactics I described (which is what I meant when I wrote "It took a while", lol!). Scribing for him during that part of the process really helped. It also didn't always have to be a formal writing process. He might tell me about the assignment and we'd have a casual conversation about his thoughts and ideas. At some point, I'd jot them down and he might add to it later on his own. When he actually started writing, having that first step helped overcome the inertia and provided some motivation. 

It's a process and it takes time for some children to develop, which is why I think some gentle support and practice early on is helpful, rather than waiting it out. 

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by delphine 
 I guess I feel like if they were all 99%tile, I could march in there and say, "Look, clearly his needs are not being met where he is", but I feel like they will say he should just work harder on the areas where he could improve, ya know?
 

Both my kids received accommodations when they attended public school, and both have accommodations in the private school they attend now. (One is just gifted, the other is gifted and on the autism spectrum). The way one request accommodations in public school when the issue is special needs is to write a letter -- a real letter with a date and a signature -- clearly stating the request and the reason for the request. This is a legal step in the process.

To me, it makes sense to the the exact same thing, even though your situation isn't a legal process (both because it's a private school and because it is a gifted issue).

Just write a polite letter. There's no need for marching and demanding. Here's something to help you get started.

_____________________________________________

Date:________

Re: Accelerating DS for Math

Dear _______________,

I'm concerned about DS's math instruction, and am requesting that the school consider accelerating him one grade level for math next year. Not only has he consistently made As, he is not putting an any effort at all to get those As. I believe that being challenged in would be very helpful very him because _____________________________.  I feel that his scores on the recent Terra Nova back up such a move.

etc.

_________________________________________________

I would advocate for math, rather than reading instruction because my guess is that he would get more out of it. I suspect that reading class one level up still wouldn't give him much challenge, it would just be reading different things that are still quite easy, and he can easily read more challenging things on his own time. My guess is that the two biggest hurdles with be:

1. the schedule. Not all the classes do the same subject at the same time, and some schools/teachers HATE to coordinate having two classes do math at the same time. (or refuse to do it because there are so many other demands on the schedule with special classes, kids in pullouts for extra help, etc.

2. concerns over what will happen his last year in the school. If, for example, the school goes through 6th grade and he does 6th grade math in 5th, what will be the plan for the year he is in 6th?

I suspect that these are things that will cause the biggest issues with the school, not that fact that he *only* got 70% on language mechanics:.

[ChristaN]

Do you have any idea what the average test scores on the Terra Nova look like for his school?  I might expect that you could advocate for subject acceleration if his scores stand out amongst the group.  However, if the school has unusual statistics where a lot of the kids score well above the national average, you might need more ammo.  I think that I'd start with the scores you have and see if you get anywhere.  If they argue that the Terra Nova isn't sufficient or that they have a lot of very high scoring students, I'd then check to see what type of information they would need to agree to subject acceleration before you spend $ on IQ testing, which may or may not be what they'd want anyway.

[delphine]

Originally Posted by ChristaN 

Do you have any idea what the average test scores on the Terra Nova look like for his school?  I might expect that you could advocate for subject acceleration if his scores stand out amongst the group.  However, if the school has unusual statistics where a lot of the kids score well above the national average, you might need more ammo.  I think that I'd start with the scores you have and see if you get anywhere.  If they argue that the Terra Nova isn't sufficient or that they have a lot of very high scoring students, I'd then check to see what type of information they would need to agree to subject acceleration before you spend $ on IQ testing, which may or may not be what they'd want anyway.

You make an excellent point.  No, I don't know about the scores for the rest of the students.  That would be a good question to ask.  The only thing we get from the school that shows any comparison like that is the report from the SRI (Scholastic Reading Inventory...I think???) that they take three times a year.  This determines their lexile level.  The end of the year report shows all of the kids scores in the class (without names) and ds's score this time was by far the highest score. 

I appreciate that several previous posters mentioned that it was a good idea to talk to the school first and see what they would require as back up information.  That is such a sensible and good idea, I am wondering why it didn't occur to me 

[delphine]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Both my kids received accommodations when they attended public school, and both have accommodations in the private school they attend now. (One is just gifted, the other is gifted and on the autism spectrum). The way one request accommodations in public school when the issue is special needs is to write a letter -- a real letter with a date and a signature -- clearly stating the request and the reason for the request. This is a legal step in the process.

To me, it makes sense to the the exact same thing, even though your situation isn't a legal process (both because it's a private school and because it is a gifted issue).

Just write a polite letter. There's no need for marching and demanding. Here's something to help you get started.

_____________________________________________

Date:________

Re: Accelerating DS for Math

Dear _______________,

I'm concerned about DS's math instruction, and am requesting that the school consider accelerating him one grade level for math next year. Not only has he consistently made As, he is not putting an any effort at all to get those As. I believe that being challenged in would be very helpful very him because _____________________________.  I feel that his scores on the recent Terra Nova back up such a move.

etc.

_________________________________________________

I would advocate for math, rather than reading instruction because my guess is that he would get more out of it. I suspect that reading class one level up still wouldn't give him much challenge, it would just be reading different things that are still quite easy, and he can easily read more challenging things on his own time. My guess is that the two biggest hurdles with be:

1. the schedule. Not all the classes do the same subject at the same time, and some schools/teachers HATE to coordinate having two classes do math at the same time. (or refuse to do it because there are so many other demands on the schedule with special classes, kids in pullouts for extra help, etc.

2. concerns over what will happen his last year in the school. If, for example, the school goes through 6th grade and he does 6th grade math in 5th, what will be the plan for the year he is in 6th?

I suspect that these are things that will cause the biggest issues with the school, not that fact that he *only* got 70% on language mechanics:.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.  I really appreciate your suggested wording. 

I agree with you that coordination of the classes may be the biggest challenge.  I am not aware of any students at the school currently receiving this type of accomodations, but I am hopeful they will work with me. 

[delphine]

I just wanted to thank everyone for your input on this thread.  It has been truly valuable to me. 

I e-mailed the principal yesterday to see if she would meet with me concerning DS.  We are planning to meet tomorrow.  She also mentioned that there is more information about the Terra Nova that the school receives, and is going to provide that to me.  In addition, all of the students at the school took an IOWA norming test in the fall and the school just recieved the results of those.  She is going to provide me with that information as well.  I am not familiar with that test (except that they took it), so I am not sure how much information it will provide.

BUT, I am going to get some resources together and hopefully they will be willing to work with me to provide the best resources for ds. 

Keep your fingers crossed. 

[Linda on the move]

Your welcome! I've written a few letters to school. We've had great experiences and I've felt like the teachers and staff have wanted to work with my kids on getting an appropriate education. I hope your meeting goes as well.

I really do think every child should get challenged at least a little bit at school.

[ChristaN]

Originally Posted by delphine

That would be a good question to ask.  The only thing we get from the school that shows any comparison like that is the report from the SRI (Scholastic Reading Inventory...I think???) that they take three times a year.  This determines their lexile level.  The end of the year report shows all of the kids scores in the class (without names) and ds's score this time was by far the highest score. 

Based on my semi-educated opinion, I'd guess that your school isn't performing well, well above national average then.  You said that his SRI lexile score was a 964 for the end of 3rd grade.  That is right at the 95th percentile for the end of 3rd.  When my dd12 was in 2nd grade, for comparison, her end of year lexile was a tad over 1000 and was probably the highest in her class, but there were definitely a few other kids who had scores very close to hers. 

That may bode well for getting some differentiation for him if other subjects play out the same where the school tends to fall on par with national averages. 

[mom2reenie]

So great that they are meeting with you so quickly and willingly!  sounds like possibly that was the way to go.

DD sounds like your son.  3rd grade, hasn't had to work for her grade and is near top of her class across the board.  She's already in the accelerated program at her school.  Something to check is to see what programs they offer in higher grades to keep him challenged.  Especially come junior high--is there enough classes available to keep him accelerated in those subjects, or will he have to repeat some classes? (like here, if DD worked a grade ahead without officially skipping to that grade, she would have to redo fifth grade math because the junior high is in another location--so I'd want to make sure that they had something else for her to do when she got to fifth grade math as a fifth gradder)

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by mom2reenie 

S(like here, if DD worked a grade ahead without officially skipping to that grade, she would have to redo fifth grade math because the junior high is in another location--so I'd want to make sure that they had something else for her to do when she got to fifth grade math as a fifth gradder)

some kids end up doing a year of math basically as an independent study. some have parents who drive them to the other school for the first period of the day for math, and then drive them to the school where they do the other subjects.

I know several kids who accelerated for math and none have re-done a year of math.