Need help on handling this situation - boundaries with ex

[Phoenix~Mama]

I have been struggling keeping boundaries with EX and have likely given him far too much leeway in regards to his visitation with the children... but I have been trying to work with him, so he still gets to see his kids.

He has been late every single pick-up for over a year.  As in 20 minutes to an hour late.  20 minutes is understandable since the traffic around here can be unpredictable at times, and we do have a 30 minute leeway built into our parenting agreement.

However, the hour??!!  It feels like it's just another way for him to control/screw up my life.

So, I've decided to start drawing major boundary lines.  He was only taking the kids for a few hours on Sat. and after he was 50 minutes late I finally got a hold of him on his phone and he says he is at the phone store because his phone was acting up... he was still likely an hour to an hour and a half ETA!!  WTF?  He was already almost an hour late!!?!  I told him he forfeited his rights to see the children that day, that I was not waiting around for him anymore and I hung up the phone.

I brought the children to my friend's picnic instead and we had a great time.  Ex called and left me a message saying that he had to get his phone fixed because he had no other way to get directions to the place he had wanted to take the kids.  Um, nothing like waiting til the absolute last minute?  An hour after he was supposed to have already picked up the kids?  Um... sorry, maybe next time get your plans straight.

So this weekend coming up is supposed to be his weekend.  He was going to spend Friday night and all day Sat. at my parents house.  (this is where he does visits now for the past 2 months since his living conditions are not appropriate for the kids and he can't take them to his Mom's (safety reasons) or Dad's (is now living with EX, as his GF kicked him out).

He sends me a text yesterday that basically said:

"I'll be down Friday to see the kids, but I'm not staying over so don't even ask me.  You were so childish on Sat. by not even listening to why I was late and I'm sick of you using the kids against me whenever you don't get your way."

Um... WTF?!  I use the kids against him??!!!  He is the one that cancels everytime he gets mad at me for whatever reason!!!  I acted childish by not waiting THREE hours past pick up time for him to get his kids??!!!  Um... sorry.  I left him because I was tired of being his door mat... I'm still feeling like a door mat when he pulls this BS... and it needs to stop.

How do I even respond to this??!!!

I wish I could just get sole custody and be done with this, but I know that would be next to impossible.  I'm just tired of him always holding visitation over my head and cancelling on every whim, and then throwing it in my face that it's my fault he is cancelling?  Really?  WTF?

So what would you do?  I really want to tell him exactly why what I did wasn't childish and he needs to freakin step up and start being a responsible parent by being there for visitation, or just give it up as it's obviously such an inconvenience for him... (I know that would never ever go well though.)  But seriously, I'm so sick of mincing words with this UAV.

Ideas?

[Annie Mac]

How do you respond? You don't. If he doesn't take his full weekend, there's no way you can make him. As for the other stuff, if he's supposed to see the kids from, say, 5 - 8, and he arrives at 6, then he sees the kids from 6 - 8. I wouldn't engage with him, just lay down calm boundaries that correspond with the court ordered visitation. 

No engagement. No yelling. No guilt-tripping. No martyr-like sighs. Nothing. He says he'll be there at 6, you say OK, then you have two hours with them. But say it super calmly. You take the high road. He'll get bored eventually. 

ETA: oh, and if he's late, don't track him down. He's a grown-up, you're not married anymore, you have no responsibility whatsoever for his whereabouts. It sucks for your kids that their dad is late/no-show, that's true, but that's not YOUR deal. That's his, 100%. If he shows up after his visit is over, too bad for him. No visit. But, I'll say it again, you have to draw these boundaries unemotionally, and of course, you have to work with whatever the court has ordered. It's not you denying him access, it's HIM denying himself access with these behaviours.

[Phoenix~Mama]

So I have no choice but to wait around the whole visitation time "in case he shows up?"  This is my problem... I don't want to do that.  I have a life, I have plans... I'm sick of my life revolving around HIS schedule.  If he's more than I say, 45 minutes late, I think I have every right to take my kids and go on with my life that day.

I don't care about making him take his time... I have a nice little documenation of how much time he has cancelled.  It's pathetic really. 

We don't have anything court ordered.  He signed the parenting agreement I wrote up.  It will be in our divorce papers... but he has 2 years to sign them... 1+ year down... he still won't sign... Next May it will be "court ordered", as in the judge will just sign for the divorce to go through then.  Neither one of us has money to take the other to court.  He is just sitting on the papers because it's another fun way for him to try to control me.  He likes to threaten me with making me wait the 2 years... too bad for him that I really don't care at this point.  He signed the parenting agreement... I took him to domestic relations to get C/S... and the divorce will be granted to me next year no matter what he threatens... so that doesn't bother me anymore.

So, no response... and just let him live in his delusional world that I'm the "bad parent that uses the kids against him?"  I suppose that is the high road to not raise back to the bait... but, it still sort of feels like just rolling over and letting him say and do whatever he wants... and I'm so tired of that.  He is an abusive, controlling UAV.  I seriously have no respect for him and it takes a lot of control to stop engaging him because I so want to tell him exactly what he is. 

[*MamaJen*]

Y'know, you can set all kinds of boundaries. Time boundaries, physical boundaries, what have you. But the best kind of boundaries are emotional ones. And in a situation like this, with a narcissist abusive control freak, you need emotional boundaries like nobody's business. You need to not care. Be annoyed that he's inconveniencing you, sure. But beyond that, don't care what he thinks or says.

My advice to you: pretend he's the dishwasher repair man or something. It's annoying and frustrating when he doesn't show up on time. According to the terms of the service contract, if he's more than 30 minutes late, you can stop waiting around for him. And that's it. You're not emotionally wrapped up in what it means when the repair guy runs late.

He is totally either 1.) actively trying to yank your chain, or 2.) he's such a narcissist that his selfish brain can't even comprehend that being three hours late inconveniences someone else. Remember that thing about narcissists -- other people's emotions literally do not exist to them. They're physiologically incapable of true empathy. So act accordingly.

I know how tempting it is to engage. Lord, I know how tempting it is to engage. But with his kind of disordered brain, you will literally never get through. He just won't get it. It's like making a call to a phone that's off the hook.

So what I would do is, abide by the terms of the parenting agreement to the tee. If he's more than 30 minutes late for pick-up, go about your day. If he's supposed to be doing visitation at your house from, say, 5 - 8, be there from 5 - 8. But if he gets there at 6 that's all he gets.

It sucks for your kids, and they'll start realizing the truth about their dad at some point. But that's pretty much inevitable. In the meantime, I wouldn't tell them that daddy's coming over until he's knocking on the door. It'll cut down on disappointment.

In terms of that text, I would I-G-N-O-R-E anything he says or does that is designed to yank your chain. If there's no logistical information in it, you don't need to respond. If there is logistical information, just respond to that. But ignore all the abuse. Just don't let it enter your brain. You know what he's saying -- abusive lies. There's no need to internalize it or give it any thought. If you want, post it her or in SA and I'll do a hilarious translation for you. Here's one...

Whiirrrr...beep....initializing Abuser-to-English translation device....

"I'll be down Friday to see the kids, but I'm not staying over so don't even ask me.  You were so childish on Sat. by not even listening to why I was late and I'm sick of you using the kids against me whenever you don't get your way."

"Dear ex: Despite the fact that you left me, I am still making desperate and futile attempts to control you in any way possible, with as little inconvenience to myself as possible. Rant pout pout rant. Everyone is out to get me and you are so cruel and selfish and unfair to not realize that the world revolves around me. I'll toss around accusations that you're using the kids against me to cover up the fact that I'm doing just that -- it's called projection, duh, and it's on page 105 of the Abuser's Handbook. Rant pout."

-translation complete-

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Phoenix~Mama 

So I have no choice but to wait around the whole visitation time "in case he shows up?"  This is my problem... I don't want to do that.  I have a life, I have plans... I'm sick of my life revolving around HIS schedule.  If he's more than I say, 45 minutes late, I think I have every right to take my kids and go on with my life that day.

No, you said that there is a 30min grace period built in.  You wait 30min, then leave.  He shows up at 45after, and calls you, say, "Oh, theres a 30minute grace period, and I had plans so after waiting 30 min we left.  Sorry."  Hang up.  (like pp said, with no emotion, just very matter of fact and polite)

[by-the-lake]

Hi,  just wanted to add something regarding waiting for him. If he is more than 30 minutes late (as in your agreed upon leeway) do not wait for him! Do not track him down. That is just another game for him. State clearly visitation is from 5-8 on such and such day at your arranged meeting place. Once 5:30 rolls around, too darn bad. Document this.  As for the texts, Save it and ignore it. You did a good job telling him he forfeited his visitation. A reasonable and responsible parent would have contacted you well in advance if there was a real issue that facilitated his tardiness. Document, document document. You are doing very well on your own, it seems he wants to suck you back in. Good luck

[Annie Mac]

Originally Posted by Phoenix~Mama 

So I have no choice but to wait around the whole visitation time "in case he shows up?"  This is my problem... I don't want to do that.  I have a life, I have plans... I'm sick of my life revolving around HIS schedule.  If he's more than I say, 45 minutes late, I think I have every right to take my kids and go on with my life that day.

I don't care about making him take his time... I have a nice little documenation of how much time he has cancelled.  It's pathetic really. 

We don't have anything court ordered.  He signed the parenting agreement I wrote up.  It will be in our divorce papers... but he has 2 years to sign them... 1+ year down... he still won't sign... Next May it will be "court ordered", as in the judge will just sign for the divorce to go through then.  Neither one of us has money to take the other to court.  He is just sitting on the papers because it's another fun way for him to try to control me.  He likes to threaten me with making me wait the 2 years... too bad for him that I really don't care at this point.  He signed the parenting agreement... I took him to domestic relations to get C/S... and the divorce will be granted to me next year no matter what he threatens... so that doesn't bother me anymore.

So, no response... and just let him live in his delusional world that I'm the "bad parent that uses the kids against him?"  I suppose that is the high road to not raise back to the bait... but, it still sort of feels like just rolling over and letting him say and do whatever he wants... and I'm so tired of that.  He is an abusive, controlling UAV.  I seriously have no respect for him and it takes a lot of control to stop engaging him because I so want to tell him exactly what he is. 

But...and I'm just guessing here...what he does want (maybe even more than seeing his children, but that's a stretch for a total stranger to make) is for you to engage in his little drama. He probably likes riling you. Tell me if I'm wrong.

As for the waiting when you have things to do...I hear you on that. The petty part of me would be tempted to invent a doctor's appt or something and leave with the kids after he failed to show up after half an hour. But I don't recommend that. You could think of it as less him manipulating you and more you training him to learn that pushing your buttons no longer elicits the same interesting response. Short term pain, long term gain, kind of thing :) 

It sucks to go through this. I have a friend who went through a very similar thing. If your ex is anything like hers, and you refuse to engage, you can probably expect a ramping up of bad behaviours. He started threatening suicide. She eventually got a restraining order, but he was well and truly a nut.

[Annie Mac]

Originally Posted by *MamaJen* 

Whiirrrr...beep....initializing Abuser-to-English translation device....

"I'll be down Friday to see the kids, but I'm not staying over so don't even ask me.  You were so childish on Sat. by not even listening to why I was late and I'm sick of you using the kids against me whenever you don't get your way."

"Dear ex: Despite the fact that you left me, I am still making desperate and futile attempts to control you in any way possible, with as little inconvenience to myself as possible. Rant pout pout rant. Everyone is out to get me and you are so cruel and selfish and unfair to not realize that the world revolves around me. I'll toss around accusations that you're using the kids against me to cover up the fact that I'm doing just that -- it's called projection, duh, and it's on page 105 of the Abuser's Handbook. Rant pout."

-translation complete-

 LOL! This is awesome :)

I absolutely second the 30 minute grace period. Great idea.

[doubledutch]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

No, you said that there is a 30min grace period built in.  You wait 30min, then leave.  He shows up at 45after, and calls you, say, "Oh, theres a 30minute grace period, and I had plans so after waiting 30 min we left.  Sorry."  Hang up.  (like pp said, with no emotion, just very matter of fact and polite)

yes!  this. 

of course, if he calls within that first half hour, stuck in traffic and trying to get there (or something) and will be there within another half hour or so, it would be your choice to either wait, or to say, "that's fine but i have to go to ____ .  you can pick the kids up from me there, if you want to."  (like your friend's picnic.)

i'm glad to see this thread because i really struggle with this too, but i should start a different thread because it's not exactly the same.  uh-huh, i'm going to do that.

[Phoenix~Mama]

lmao!  Oh MamaJen... I have so missed your translations.  And you are right.  Excellent points. 

I pretty much never speak to him anymore... I do everything through text and save the "special" ones.  Also got around to getting a smart phone that also saves voicemails right on the phone so I don't have to worry about the data voice mailbox going full.  This is also handy in saving documentation.

And Annie... actually the sad truth is that he really is a narccist and yes, his number one priority would be anything to get at me, trumping time with kids.  Trust me.  I've seen it for years unfortunately.  :-(  He doesn't seem to think twice about his kids except for when it may make him look good in front of someone.  :-/

And yes, I have stopped telling DD when she will see her Dad.  Because he has become so incredibly unreliable.  I just checked my little sheet... He has had the kids 29 hours the month of May.  Some of that is time spent sleeping.  :P   Yeah, he so cares about seeing his kids.... 

[GoBecGo]

This thread reminds me of me 4 years ago.  My ex used to do this sort of stuff.  Especially when he figured i would see my new partner when DD was away (it was before i was ready to introduce them much) and he thought if he was late it would screw up my "date night".

I mostly rose above.  Once i said "i'm sorry you think me looking out for DD's best interests and relationship with her father is selfish, but SOMEone has to" which i'm not proud of (sank to his level) but which was very effective.

Honestly - he is your ex.  It doesn't MATTER if he thinks you're the worst mom in the world, or mary poppins, or the queen of sheba.  His opinion is moot.  YOUR opinion of you is all that matters now.  I KNOW how hard it is to know and live that, for literally years i felt (but managed not to show) anxiety about how he acted and reacted and worried about how he would act/react.  It wore off eventually.  Boundaries ARE the way forward. 

[Greenlea]

Well after waiting that 30 mins, if you have plans just do them.  If he calls you still wanting to see the kids, tell him you are out, give him the address to come pick up the kids, or tell him he has to wait until you get home to come get them.  Just stop being accomodating and maybe he'll get the picture...maybe.

[hillymum]

What do you do about when you do have plans though? Sbx has been pulling this trick and then pulling the guilt trick on me. What am I supposed to do? Sit around and wait for sbx to arrive, cancel my plans and be nice to him when he finally arrives, or wait the 30 minutes, cancel my plans and take the kids out and have fun with them? Either way we all lose out on what we thought we were going to do and sbx has "won" his little psyco games as far as he is concerned. It sucks but I think as long as the mother has primary custody, we have no life if our ex doesn't want us to have one. I for one really struggle with this, and have found that I get really angry and resentful towards sbx because of this. I do wish there was a way to punish the other parent when they stand up their children, or try controling the other expartner in this manner, but blahhhh, thats not going to happen.

[*MamaJen*]

Originally Posted by hillymum 

What do you do about when you do have plans though? Sbx has been pulling this trick and then pulling the guilt trick on me. What am I supposed to do? Sit around and wait for sbx to arrive, cancel my plans and be nice to him when he finally arrives, or wait the 30 minutes, cancel my plans and take the kids out and have fun with them? Either way we all lose out on what we thought we were going to do and sbx has "won" his little psyco games as far as he is concerned. It sucks but I think as long as the mother has primary custody, we have no life if our ex doesn't want us to have one. I for one really struggle with this, and have found that I get really angry and resentful towards sbx because of this. I do wish there was a way to punish the other parent when they stand up their children, or try controling the other expartner in this manner, but blahhhh, thats not going to happen.

If you have the financial resources, would it be possible to have a back-up babysitter lined up if you think he's not going to show up? It would be nice if the custody agreement could include making them pay the cost of childcare if they miss a scheduled pick-up. In the meantime, document it all.

[AttunedMama]

Yes, yes, yes to emotional boundaries.

Just want to chime in to say, be prepared for him to backlash on you when you "fail" to take his bait. He'll probably try stronger bait, at least a few (thousand) times. Best wishes!

[Phoenix~Mama]

Originally Posted by hillymum 

What do you do about when you do have plans though? Sbx has been pulling this trick and then pulling the guilt trick on me. What am I supposed to do? Sit around and wait for sbx to arrive, cancel my plans and be nice to him when he finally arrives, or wait the 30 minutes, cancel my plans and take the kids out and have fun with them? Either way we all lose out on what we thought we were going to do and sbx has "won" his little psyco games as far as he is concerned. It sucks but I think as long as the mother has primary custody, we have no life if our ex doesn't want us to have one. I for one really struggle with this, and have found that I get really angry and resentful towards sbx because of this. I do wish there was a way to punish the other parent when they stand up their children, or try controling the other expartner in this manner, but blahhhh, thats not going to happen.

Actually yeah... that's part of it for me too.  Word for word how I feel... like he still "wins".  And I actually made a post not too long ago, being very frustrated about having to cancel plans a lot.

This time it worked that my plans was somewhere I could take my kids to as well... but that isn't always the case.  I can't afford a weekend sitter as I already pay an astronomical amount for childcare during the week.  When I move, I think my parents are going to be more open to being a back-up sitter as they won't get to see the kids as much... but this past year of dealing with EX's BS games/visitation totally sucks.

The funny part is... we DO have wording in our agreement that says about the cancelling partent being responsible for childcare... but as soon as I pointed that out to EX, he flipped out on me saying I can't make him do anything and doesn't he give me enough money already, and to "grow up and accept that I'm just going to have to put my children first and cancel my plans."   Which is really hysterical coming from the guy who has cancelled more than half of his time with his kids because of plans... he is the only one who gets to make plans and keep them.

So yes... that is a big issue for me... that fact of how much control he still has over me and my life by him just willy-nilly getting to decide when he gets to be a Dad or not.... and no matter what kind of wording you have in your parenting plan... bottom line is... there isn't anyone to enforce it... so  *shrugs*  This is our life.

[*MamaJen*]

Originally Posted by Phoenix~Mama 

The funny part is... we DO have wording in our agreement that says about the cancelling partent being responsible for childcare... but as soon as I pointed that out to EX, he flipped out on me saying I can't make him do anything and doesn't he give me enough money already, and to "grow up and accept that I'm just going to have to put my children first and cancel my plans."   Which is really hysterical coming from the guy who has cancelled more than half of his time with his kids because of plans... he is the only one who gets to make plans and keep them.

He's so lame. I wonder, could you switch it so that you drop the kids off at his house and he returns them at the end of his visitation? I guess the danger there is that he could choose to not be home.

[Annie Mac]

This is going to sound so cynical, but when I stopped expecting anything -- at all, including child support -- from my older child's father, I felt a lot more peaceful within myself, and a lot less beholden to him. I never expected him to take her out, so when he did, it was a nice treat for everyone. I never expected child support, so when I got it, it was like a little windfall of extra cash. He demonstrated early on that he wasn't dependable, so I learned not to depend on him. 

[mimim]

My ex-husband used to do this, only not because he's manipulative, but because he's irresponsible and always late for everything. I finally told him that I was going to charge him for babysitting ($20/hour) when he was more than an hour late. He's usually about an hour late now.

[MariesMama]

MamaJen, I was thinking the same thing. Although, if he's having visitation at her parents' house it won't work either.