I CAN"T TAKE the food on the floor anymore! - Page 2

[les_oiseau]

I second just giving her a little at a time, just a couple bites worth, and if she starts making a mess with it, take it away immediately. Both my kids make/made messes with their food, and it was basically this approach+ a lot of patience and floor cleaning. My 4yo stopped that a long time ago, but not before 3 I think. My dd is 2 and she still does this. Drives me a little nutty sometimes. I just try to remember to be grateful that we have food enough for everyone, grateful I can stay home w my kids and clean up messes, etc, and breeeaaathe deeply.  Just remember it is just a stage. It won't last long.

And, "never knowing a kid to throw food"...?  Don't feel like it's uncommon... it is not!

[2xy]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

Well I think that's ridiculous...I don't tell my DD how to feel. When she listens to a boundary or guidance ex: Don't go in the street Danger! and turns around and "listens" she is the first to say YAY! and clap for herself.

Where did she learn to say "Yay" and clap for her actions?

Your child is not even two years old yet. She's mimicking what she's seen other people do when she behaves in the approved fashion.

[Boot]

I struggle with this too but I've kind of given up. I just resign myself to a dirty kitchen floor.

On a practical note, can anyone give more detail on the shower curtain recommendation? I've thought of this but I can't imagine how I would wash it off and dry it. It would be too big for the kitchen sink. Any tips? Also, what do you use to clean the floor. Often it's too sticky for a broom but too 'clumpy' for the mop. TIA 

[hildare]

we have been there, for sure.  the food throwing really pushes my dh's buttons, too. 

some of the problem for us turned out to be that dd had figured out that food throwing got our attention.  when we try to eat or have dinner conversation that doesn't include her is when she gets going with that.  she is more into pouring out her drink than throwing food so much, though. 

we try to engage her, and give her time for sensory play (pouring water, smearing paint, etc.) not at dinner.  that cuts down on some of it.  that and i bought a length of PUL (and.. ok.. i meant to sew some diaper covers but that's not what happened) and find it a good square to put under her chair.  it washes and wipes well so i'll pretend that i did that on purpose.

when she threw a fork at dinner and broke a glass the other night (yup) i pulled out this thing my FIL had given us that i had not used before.. it's something called a mr. sticky (stupid name) and it got up the glass specks, but it worked so well i've been using it on the crumbs now.  it's pretty awesome.  just trying to hold on to our glassware and hoping for this phase to pass. 

[sosurreal09]

Yeah but teaching a child right from wrong is my job as her parent, how would I do that with no approval or disapproval of her actions? If I just leave her to "learn" on her own with no real input then that is not discipline at all. We were just talking about that in another thread "Does GD breed wild children?" or something like that. How some people never teach their kids right and wrong and they have no boundaries and have problems...

So I respectfully disagree that praising a child for doing something pleasing is somehow hindering her or is not healthy or good for her.

Originally Posted by 2xy 

Where did she learn to say "Yay" and clap for her actions?

Your child is not even two years old yet. She's mimicking what she's seen other people do when she behaves in the approved fashion.

[dogretro]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

So there are no tips on trying to encourage her to stop? If she sits on our laps she rubs food all over us to and shakes her head no and says "uhuh uhuh" like she knows not to do it but does it anyways....I never know how to react to that I usually just say "if your going to make a mess do it in your chair" and put her in her seat.

The previous posters gave you LOTS of tips, namely to stop giving her lots of food.  Give her one or two bites on her tray at a time.  If she is sitting on your lap & smears food, tell her that food is for eating & if she continues to smear it, you are putting her down.  You tell her to "make a mess in her own chair" and then get frustrated that she makes a mess in her chair!  I think you are looking for a magic pill & everyone is telling you that there IS no magic pill, just strategies to make it less irritating.  Strategies such as: less food, tell her that food is for eating, take her out of the chair after two tosses, maybe put off going out to eat for a while.

As far as the side topic, no, gentle & positive discipline do not produce wild children.  Guiding your child in the ways I stated above IS gentle and will teach her how to behave at the table.  You don't sit nicely, then it's time to get up.  Matter-of-fact, not punitive, let's move on.  I think your frustration is blinding you to this.  Step back, breathe, try again :)

[sosurreal09]

Dog I never said GD produces wild children. I am a strong advocate of GD. The quote about the wild children is another thread where I defended GD. I do positive discipline with my DD other people are saying that could be damaging...which I don't agree with.

The post earlier saying there were no tips was before I got those tips, except the 2 bites at a time thing. My DD doesn't have a tray btw she is not in a high chair she is at the table in a booster.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

I do positive discipline with my DD other people are saying that could be damaging...which I don't agree with.

I think most rational people would agree that some praise is fine. What I'm against is the type of parenting that says "Good Job!" every time the child manages to take a breath properly. Kids need to be able to decide for themselves whether they've truly done a good job. Heavy use of praise is just another type of coercion. Everything in moderation....

I've also seen the "Good Job" brigade in full force when children try to show their parents what they've accomplished, and the parents don't want to spend a minute to truly interact with the kid and make real conversation. So they say a syrupy-sweet "Good Job" and go back to their texting, TV show, etc. That always seems very dismissive of the child, to me.

[hakeber]

Originally Posted by Boot 

I struggle with this too but I've kind of given up. I just resign myself to a dirty kitchen floor.

On a practical note, can anyone give more detail on the shower curtain recommendation? I've thought of this but I can't imagine how I would wash it off and dry it. It would be too big for the kitchen sink. Any tips? Also, what do you use to clean the floor. Often it's too sticky for a broom but too 'clumpy' for the mop. TIA 

You can throw a shower curtain in the washing machine (if you have one) They can withstand pretty high temps.  Then hang to dry, and within minutes the water will fall off.

I use a sheet because that works just as well.

I don't really mind the mind the mess.

Originally Posted by 2xy 

I think most rational people would agree that some praise is fine. What I'm against is the type of parenting that says "Good Job!" every time the child manages to take a breath properly. Kids need to be able to decide for themselves whether they've truly done a good job. Heavy use of praise is just another type of coercion. Everything in moderation....

I've also seen the "Good Job" brigade in full force when children try to show their parents what they've accomplished, and the parents don't want to spend a minute to truly interact with the kid and make real conversation. So they say a syrupy-sweet "Good Job" and go back to their texting, TV show, etc. That always seems very dismissive of the child, to me.

I agree.  I'll even admit that I have done that now and then.  "Uh huh, FanTAStic!  Good work,Buddy!" (subtext: Jesus! Can't you SEE I'm doing something!!?) I never feel good about it afterwards.

But the genuine (yeah!  Well done!) celebrations of success are not harmful in and of themselves IME.  I think it is important to be as specific as possible...instead of "good job!" try "Wow, I love the colors you chose.  Your drawing is so Vibrant!" or "Good listening, Emily!" and as they get older;  "Thank you for listening to mama.  I feel happy when you help me by listening to instructions."  I think people (pack animals at our core) are hard wired to seek ways they are valuable to their societies (from the microcosm of the family to the larger society) as they grow from infants to children and adults, and the more useful they feel (making mommy smile, relax, helping mommy, contributing positively) the better they feel about themselves, and the more pleasant they are to be around.

Unfortunately there is this learning curve (some obviously wider than others) where they have to figure out what is helpful and what is not.  As some moms pointed out, having a steadfast rule of two tosses and you're done, would eliminate the problem.  I am not that fussed by a bowl of soup in the hair (obviously she is done then because there is no more food, but I don't attempt to stop her -- even if I could) we just lift, bathe and wipe...no biggie.  I am a foodie and I like to feel textures and eat with my hands.  I drop food and crumbs sometimes too. Food is not just for eating, IMO.  It IS for feelings and tasting and smelling and experiencing...I do draw the line at actual throwing, but dropping doesn't bug me at all, and I figure if I don't want it on my rug, I shouldn't give her something messy over the rug.  She doesn't have the motor skills or the self control to NOT drop it yet.

 
If you really don't want food on your floor, use a drop cloth, and eat in the same place where you can keep things clean...if you are more like me, sharing a snack on the couch while we color or read a book...get used to cleaning up messes.  Even my six year old, heck even my 40 yo HUSBAND, has a hard time coordinating a fork from the bowl to the mouth when doing something else.  We used to joke with DS when he was 2.5 or 3 when he would drop "Food goes from the bowl, to mouth, NOT on the floooooorrr!  Bowl to the mouth...bowl to the?  Ear?  nooooooo, Toes?  noooooo  ahhhh, the nose!  No?  Where?"  and he'd shout  "The MOUTH!"  and we'd have a good giggle. 
 

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

When she says she is done I do take her out. I have never reacted to it b/c I just figured she would grow out of it. It is just so dang hard! I try to encourage her to be messy with other things like our homemade food-grade play dough and paints. She is the kind of kid that goes outside seeking mud and rubs it everywhere which I am fine with.

I think it's just hard b/c I have been getting a lot of family pressure about it "I have NEVER seen a baby/child do that" or you know that I need to punish her. I have never punished her and I don't plan to start anytime soon.

So there are no tips on trying to encourage her to stop? If she sits on our laps she rubs food all over us to and shakes her head no and says "uhuh uhuh" like she knows not to do it but does it anyways....I never know how to react to that I usually just say "if your going to make a mess do it in your chair" and put her in her seat.

I work in an infant room at a daycare right now and every child does that at some point.  Some are very persistent about it and take months to bore out of doing it once they decide it is a fun game and some do it a little every now and then but are easily redirected.  There is no magic stop, there are only a bunch of things you can try alone or together to minimize how much it happens and slowly turn it into something that doesn't need to happen.  What I have found with my dd and at work is that staying right with the child and making sure you let them move on to another activity when they are done eating instead of having them wait makes all the difference.  Once they move from eating to done they start playing and if there is much of a wait the food is everywhere.  If she starts making a mess while you are holding her then clean her up and let her go play.  Telling her to make a mess in her chair is encouraging her to do something that drives you nuts and that she isn't just going to stop overnight.  Parenting is just not that easy.

For quick clean up a wet washcloth works very well.  We use them on the kids, tables, chairs, and floor to pick up everything from sauces to crumbs in just a few minutes.

[BetsyS]

We use a high chair.  With my first, it was with a tray and all.  The second baby used the same high chair, with the tray removed, pulled up to the table.  With the third, we have moved to an IKEA high chair pulled up to the table.

I sit next to the baby (he's 11 months old).  I fix him a plate, but I do not give it to him (!).  I keep the plate just in front of me, and I hand him bites from it as he finishes his food. If he throws a bite or feeds the dog, he is then done. 

As an aside, I use a high chair from birth (I have one that reclines).  It absolutely drives me nutty to have a baby in my lap while I eat.  I mean, I will do it, we all will, but if there is a way not to, I try not to.  So, my kids are used to sitting right next to me at the table, being part of the family meal.  They like that time, so that helps them stay motivated to finish eating. 

[lalaland42]

I do small amounts like most others. The other thing I did was teach DS to put down food when he picks it up to dump it. I tap the table with my fingernail and say, "on the table" and he sets it down. To teach him that, he'd pick it up to throw it and I'd say "on the table", he'd throw it and I'd say "oh you must be done" and take him out of his high chair. He didn't generally like that. He figured it out after a couple of weeks.

As for restaurants, tip big.

[Sanveann]

My oldest son was very similar. We also did small portions -- he seemed a LOT more likely to throw if he had a lot on his plate than just a little -- and would be "all done" as soon as he started throwing. I know it's hard, especially if she's not a great eater (my son wasn't), but he did get the message pretty quickly and stopped making such a huge mess.

Btw, I do praise, as well :) I just try not to go crazy with it ... I'll just say something like, "Nice listening -- high five!" or, "You put on your shoes really fast! Thanks!" instead of going completely overboard (like my ILs do) and saying things like, "WOW! You are SUCH a SMART BOY! You are the BEST at putting on your shoes EVER!!!!" I think the point is to let them know that they did a good job and you noticed and appreciated it, rather than making a big value judgement about what kind of kid they are.

[lalaland42]

About the praise thing. I get what Alfie Kohn is saying about excessive praise, such as praising a typical 12 year old for tying his shoes, but I heavily disagree with no praise at all. People are naturally social animals and they look toward others to reinforce their behavior. Praise is a way of telling a person they are doing socially appropriate actions. I have noticed that if I don't praise my DD for something she is unsure about, she feels like I disapprove of her. I know that some people would say she is ruined by praise (hardly *rollseyes*) but she is just seeking the reassurance of someone with more experience in social stuff.

I just try to keep the praise specific and appropriate.

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

When she says she is done I do take her out. I have never reacted to it b/c I just figured she would grow out of it. It is just so dang hard! I try to encourage her to be messy with other things like our homemade food-grade play dough and paints. She is the kind of kid that goes outside seeking mud and rubs it everywhere which I am fine with.

I think it's just hard b/c I have been getting a lot of family pressure about it "I have NEVER seen a baby/child do that" or you know that I need to punish her. I have never punished her and I don't plan to start anytime soon.

So there are no tips on trying to encourage her to stop? If she sits on our laps she rubs food all over us to and shakes her head no and says "uhuh uhuh" like she knows not to do it but does it anyways....I never know how to react to that I usually just say "if your going to make a mess do it in your chair" and put her in her seat.

I think the bolded quote above might be part of why you DD has SUCH fun with her food. She might have it in her mind that gloppy, smear-y stuff = a fun, messy time. NOT saying I think you're wrong with that...just, from my POV, that might be where your learning point could be. Like, here's the difference between food and paint/mud....or, "we make messes only OUTside, but not INside..." etc.

My daughter is 10 months and is only now warming up to solids. We feed her always in the kitchen or in the living room on an old towel, and I give her a bite at a time. When I babysit my nephew, who's a year older than Annie, we used to eat in the living room picnic-style, sitting on an old sheet or a beach towel on the floor. I also have a warm wet washcloth next to me at all times to wipe up messes as I see them. Now that he's older we have a rule of eating only at the kitchen table, and he seems to respond well to that.

I still do the wet washcloth/dish towel thing and, sometimes, put a sheet down on the floor, because I'm a bit OCD about cleanliness...I might be the only person in the world who doesn't think it's cute when I see pics of kids covered in baby food lol. Instead I shudder and think about who had to clean all that up. But that's just ME....obviously not all moms are like me, but I've learned on these forums that there are a few who are....and if mama isn't going to be happy or comfortable with a big mess (no matter how fun the child might think it is), then ultimately it's not going to end well. I think you should do whatever you need to do so you're not feeling the frustration that you're feeling about food on the floor. It's not good. If it's as simple as a sheet on the floor, a wet washcloth OR feeding your daughter in a diaper or old t-shirt & shorts only and/or having a quick rinse-off in the bathtub afterwards. etc....figure out whatever it is that makes it ok for your and then just do it.

Oh and I agree about the praise thing. That's not a tried and true tenant of parenting....AKAIK it's a relatively new philosophy and I don't think it holds much water, personally. It comes naturally to parents and teachers to praise children as they learn and grow, and it's just as natural, IMO, for the kids to desire that praise. I think it's normal.

[mamazee]

SOME praise is tried and true, but what Alfie Kohn is talking about is the self-esteem movement, that started in the 70s, or maybe the late 60s, when teachers started being taught to say "good job" over and over again, and "good writing", "good listening", "good standing", etc. It's manipulative praise intended to be used as a behavioral tool. THAT was a new thing and a social experiment. It was huge in the 70s and 80s when I was in school, and is something I still hear from a lot of people, though I don't think it's specifically taught anymore so maybe it isn't quite as overwhelmingly common as it was. But anyway the idea was that kids needed very frequent praise to have self esteem, and AK and others who have looked at it dont' believe that's been the outcome - they've found that people who were fed a continual diet of "good job" have trouble with true self esteem, which comes from within oneself and not from outside sources, and that they are indeed "praise junkies" who have trouble performing tasks without being told how great a job they're doing. But I dont' think showing natural appreciation and joy is what Afie Kohn is talking about.

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by mamazee 

SOME praise is tried and true, but what Alfie Kohn is talking about is the self-esteem movement, that started in the 70s, or maybe the late 60s, when teachers started being taught to say "good job" over and over again, and "good writing", "good listening", "good standing", etc. It's manipulative praise intended to be used as a behavioral tool. THAT was a new thing and a social experiment. It was huge in the 70s and 80s when I was in school, and is something I still hear from a lot of people, though I don't think it's specifically taught anymore so maybe it isn't quite as overwhelmingly common as it was. But anyway the idea was that kids needed very frequent praise to have self esteem, and AK and others who have looked at it dont' believe that's been the outcome - they've found that people who were fed a continual diet of "good job" have trouble with true self esteem, which comes from within oneself and not from outside sources, and that they are indeed "praise junkies" who have trouble performing tasks without being told how great a job they're doing. But I dont' think showing natural appreciation and joy is what Afie Kohn is talking about.

If that truly represents what AK is talking about re: praise in UP, then I'm all for it. I took it a totally different way...that any and all praise is a judgement that will look like  a measuring stick to your child, and they'll be programmed to think that your love for them is conditioned on measuring up in some way.

[mamazee]

I'm not AK, but my feeling is that he's an anti-behaviorist who started writing and primarily writes about education, and his feelings were motivated by the self-esteem movement.

I think in UP, generally praise, as in "you did a good job . . . " is overall considered less favorable than "I love the . . ." which is generally considered less favorable than "You did it" or something that has no judgement associated what-so-ever. However, all parents do naturally judge what their kids do and praise to at least some extent, even if they're trying to avoid it. At least I'm guessing so? It seems like there are times you'd have to almost bend over backward not to praise and that could have unintended consequences too - I mean it seems like being non-genuine is a bigger problem. I think it's a "more is not better" issue. Like that there are other ways to express appreciation with what a kid is doing, but it seems like if it's coming naturally out of genuine appreciation, and it's not something you're saying all the time until your child starts to develop their vision of themselves externally rather than internally, it's not the issue UP is talking about. However, I think the overall message is indeed that frequent praise has the potential consequence of causing those kinds of problems.

Just my opinion about it! I like UP but I'm not evangelistic about it - I just like to see it presented fairly. I am not in the habit of giving praise, and I don't give classic praise like "good job!" very often if at all. I do say, "thank you" and "wow!" and that kind of thing more often, and there is implied praise if not explicit praise in that. My favorite thing I've taken from UP though is giving up the idea that it's my job to run commentary on what my kids are doing at all. Like, I don't have to comment on everything whether it's praise or not. If my kids ask for my opinion, I give it, and if something just tickles me or something, I'll say so, but I don't comment on much of what they do. And they don't really ask for praise. The older one loves to write stories and draw and even write songs, but she doesn't really look to me for an opinion very often at all. She loves what she's done and doesn't need me to give her judgment on it. I think she probably just assumes I love everything she does, though, and there's probably truth in that.

This is all getting off topic. I'm wondering if it's time for another UP thread. I like discussing it and I don't expect everyone to agree with me or it. I just don't like to see it misrepresented as "never saying anything nice to your kids".