Anti-zoo mama not sure how to proceed.... - Page 2

[Marsupialmom]

Since all zoos are not created equally I would research the zoo they are going to. 

If they are going with a large groups it will be fun and they will not see your point of view.  There blinders would be on as much as it would be if you were there showing distain so the can make an informed education. 

Because of a family friend we researched Zoos and look at them objectively.  My kids go to our local one however if they were at grandparents they would not go to those because there is no research and it is more like cages. 

[Kathy White]

I wouldn't go.  You have made your children see why you have your viewpoint now it's okay for them to go make theirs.  The way life will have it one of them may want to be a zoologist when they grow up   And maybe not !   I've met too many parents who in their pacifist stance, their vegitarian soap box, and strong opinion whatever point of view end up disconnecting from their children as they join the army, eat meat and vote right wing...because of a principal, an opinion about the world disconnection results.  (not saying you are like that) just a reminder for myself really to remember that what I resist persists....(and can come out through my children).

I completely agree with your point of view about Zoos (did you read about Knut the polar bear  in Germany?) and at the same time I  have been to several with my children. 

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by EviesMom 

I don't hold your viewpoint at all, but in your shoes, I would let the kids go and not go myself. I can't think of any positive aspect to you chaperoning a trip you're opposed to. 

This, exactly.

[AttunedMama]

Originally Posted by Marsupialmom 

Since all zoos are not created equally I would research the zoo they are going to. 

If they are going with a large groups it will be fun and they will not see your point of view.  There blinders would be on as much as it would be if you were there showing distain so the can make an informed education. 

Because of a family friend we researched Zoos and look at them objectively.  My kids go to our local one however if they were at grandparents they would not go to those because there is no research and it is more like cages. 

This is what is really breaking my heart. It's not the measly five bucks that "the zoo" gets off of my kid(although that is also bitter). It's the romantic appeal that the place is designed to have. It makes me deeply, spiritually sick. Lucky for me the place is not on my beaten paths, I get sad every time I see it.

[Bena]

I agree with the general feeling here (let your kids go, but don't go yourself) but, I am curious....have you asked your child who wants you to go why he\she wants you to go?  I'm wondering if their answer might change something.

Just a thought.

[Smokering]

Since all zoos are not created equally I would research the zoo they are going to.

This. "Zoo" can mean anything from "Victorian-caged sideshow with inadequate housing, depleting wild stocks of endangered species" to the Jersey Wildlife Preservation Trust (to name a good'un). If you can find specific problems with the zoo in question, it seems fair to tell them to your children - "I'm not going because this zoo does XYZ to its animals".

[Marsupialmom]

Originally Posted by AttunedMama 

This is what is really breaking my heart. It's not the measly five bucks that "the zoo" gets off of my kid(although that is also bitter). It's the romantic appeal that the place is designed to have. It makes me deeply, spiritually sick. Lucky for me the place is not on my beaten paths, I get sad every time I see it.

If you do not have serious open and balance conversations with your children you are going to create a situation were they rebel or do not hold your values. 

It is kind of like drugs.  Don't do drugs, drugs are horrible, they do awful things for you.  Don't drink.  Then the child becomes of age and they get drugs and drink and think WTF controlling authority has no clue.  

How do you think, "I don't support all Zoos because of XYZ" will be met 10 years from now when they find out about research many zoos do?  What about going to zoos and hanging out with friends as teens and they do not see the caged bear but a happy bears in habitates that support their natural habitates? What if they see "happy" animals but have no clue how they look happy may not be reality.  We don't do pony rides because of how more often than not they are not treated well: from out right abuse to overfeeding.  We go to a stable to ride a horse, all three of my kids can see a "fat" pony.  More often than not a "Fat" pony means someone that doesn't know how to take care of them.   

As I stated before, we associated with someone that was very anti-zoo. She has major discord with her oldest child who at 16 started volunteering at St. Louis, Zoo.  Now she works with birds at the bird sanctuary that her mom said "horribly" caged birds and has also worked with Eagles.  These "poor caged birds" would be dead in the wild.  Their study has save many more birds and increased the Eagle population so they are no longer endangered.  It was one of those trapped Eagles that created a passion and created her daughter's goals to improve and respect animals (namely birds) zoo, sanctuaries, et.  The mom was/is completely closed to the idea that not all animals can be rehibilitated. That there is good and bad and there is need for change and it takes and active path to get there.  

The daughter is very against animal cruelty and actively works against it. She can state why, show examples of good and bad, plan on how to improve and actively move towards that.  She grew up with pets, dogs and cats.  Her mom saying how bad purebred was, but no explanation to the difference between human society finds verse purebred industry.  The same with zoos, working animals, and humane treatment of animals.  

Your children will learn more if you say, no not this time the start talking about what you do not like about Zoo.  If you say yes, you can still do the same thing.  Ask open ended questions.  Pose ethical questions.  Ask them if they can think a better way.  Talk about the issues behind some of the animals there.  

I am against Palm Oil farming because how it is killing off Orangutan.  It was at the Zoo that I could approach my children about the issue.  Mom's not crazy Orangutan aren't just pictures but animals that need to be respected.  We also talked about how the zoo cages has changed and should change....long on going conversations.  Next year there will be no Girl Scout cookies bought or sold because we cannot support the use of Palm oil.  It is trips to Zoos and educations that the "can" provide that helps in conservation so there is a balance that needs to be had.  Yes, maybe it should not be needed but the human animal is quirky.

http://www.cmzoo.org/conservation/palmOilCrisis/ (caution graphic photo)

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/about_forests/deforestation/forest_conversion_agriculture/orang_utans_palm_oil/

http://www.grist.org/scary-food/2011-02-17-are-girl-scout-cookies-killing-orangutans

Have you ever explain to your kids why Zoo makes you sad?  I know part of me is sadden that we need Zoos and perserves to protect animals. However, I am happy because my Zoo, although not perfect is actively helping save more animals than they have caged.  

[AttunedMama]

I have taken my kids to a wildlife rehab place, where local creatures who have been screwed over by civilization can live in relatively safe captivity. Moreover, my children live in a forest and are pretty keen on their empathy/awareness of the local, native "friends". Nothing this particular tourist attraction has to offer can better teach my kids empathy than watching raccoons grow from babies, raid our trash when we forget to lock it down, and grow up to be splattered on the local highway. We're down with the civilization-savvy. We rescue pets in the street, and have epic conversations about poverty, industry, corporations, etc.. Blah blah blah.

My plan, with the support of you thoughtful folks: Tell them that going is up to them. That I'm not going: Simply, that I've rejected zoos since I was a teen and that hasn't changed. We'll talk afterward, about what they did and did NOT like about the trip. I'll finally invest in a book that I've been wanting to own (which, for those of you wanting to know why I don't accept the premise of the validity/necessity of zoos, it's a better response than I could fling out on a chat board).  Next year, I'll let the teacher know at the giddyup that I want to actively organize/facilitate fieldtrips, and I'll follow through. This was our fledgling year at the school, and now that we've adjusted and plan to return, I can involve myself more, rather than 'dropping them at daycare'.

A bit more insight into MY own brain: I find it really common that the school is picking "the zoo". The whole point of the school is be awesome, not mediocre. To me, "zoo trip" is right up there with pledging allegiance and lining up for scoliosis exams en masse. It's just not what we're there for, and I don't think there's time to waste on distractions like a 'zoo'. Surely, my opinion is colored by my own trips there as a youth (same zoo). It is true that I have not been there in a decade, but there are 84593 other places I'd rather go/my kids go first, before bothering to reevaluate my perspectives on this particular zoo. I'm big on leaving the past behind, I guess. Our city has tons of budding permaculture farms, within an hour's drive are small waterfalls, science museums, archaeological sites that are deeply relevant to the history of the two main groups that the school currently serves (black american inner city kids, white american inner city kids with a few suburbanites thrown in the mix). Hell, I'd rather they just take the kids to some bounce place to let off steam, than take them to be hegemonized by the zoo!

This thread has been great for me! That last paragraph was a real personal breakthrough! Whee!

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by AttunedMama 

A bit more insight into MY own brain: I find it really common that the school is picking "the zoo". The whole point of the school is be awesome, not mediocre. To me, "zoo trip" is right up there with pledging allegiance and lining up for scoliosis exams en masse. It's just not what we're there for, and I don't think there's time to waste on distractions like a 'zoo'.

I don't have a problem with zoos (our local one is quite good in many ways) and yet I totally agree with you. I'm sure that every kid at the school whose parents are OK with zoos have already been. Half most likely have memberships.  There are so many more interesting things they could be doing as a field trip.

My kids also go to an alternative school, they've done some amazing trips this year to places I didn't even know about. They've also gone caving, backpacking, and done community service projects.

The first year at a school you kinda just learn out it works and what you like about it and what can be improved. It sounds like this is an area where you can really make an impact next year, and think how enriching that will be for ALL the kids.

In spite of the fact that I'm fine with our local zoo, I deeply appreciate the moms at our school who've taken the time to make other things available to my kids. After all, I know were the zoo is. I didn't know where the organic farm/artist colony was, and that was really cool for my kids to see!

[SuburbanHippie]

Originally Posted by AttunedMama 

A bit more insight into MY own brain: I find it really common that the school is picking "the zoo". The whole point of the school is be awesome, not mediocre. To me, "zoo trip" is right up there with pledging allegiance and lining up for scoliosis exams en masse.

My son's class just had their only field trip for the year... to a bowling alley.  I would be doing cartwheels if they had picked the zoo instead.  At least there is a chance of learning there.  You don't even keep score yourself in bowling anymore!