is my son gifted or just acting out?

[indigoscot]

hello all,

i am seeking some advice from this forum.

our son is three and will turn four in august.  he is currently in daycare that is sponsored by my company and has been since he was 8 weeks old.  earlier this year we had some issues with a couple of the teachers (male).  one yelled at him over a blanket at nap time, and he just would not interact with that teacher again (that teacher is now gone) and the other physically removed him from a situation (yanked him off a trike in the playground, dragged him across the playground and threw him in a chair) and that teacher was fired.  after that our son, understandably, had some behavioural issues at the daycare - major temper tantrums, hitting / pushing his friends and the teachers.  we had an intervention with the daycare director and her boss and came up with some techniques to help him understand that daycare was a safe place to be.  they introduced a program to talk about social interaction and emotions.  we are now 4 or 5 weeks into that and he has improved markedly and the last couple of weeks has only had some minor issues.

prior to this he was having some minor issues - most of which we and the teachers thought were due to him being bored in class.

the last couple of days he has been back to acting out.  he has been disinterested in activities in the classroom, pushed a classmate and today hit his teacher.  the teachers and director have been unable to tell me what triggered this behaviour because they always see his reaction and not what caused it.  he does not act like this at home.

several people (including his previous twos teacher) have told us to get him tested, that part of the problem could be that he's gifted, bored in the class and frustrated with his classmates.  he does exhibit shyness in asking friends to play with him although for the most part he is very outgoing and active.

he walked early, talked early, had a great vocabulary early, spoke in sentences early.  he knew all his shapes and colours early.  he knows how to switch on the computer, start up his games, mute and unmute the sound via the task bar and has mastered the pre-k games we have.  he can put together lego advertised for 5-7 year olds. he knows all his letters and numbers and can write letters.  his imagination is amazing and he remembers EVERYTHING.  he has memorised several of his books and can read them back to us - and usually embellishes them with his own comments.  he is a chatterbox.  he likes to line things up and categorise them.  he can look at a group of items and tell us how many there are w/o actually counting them.  he could do 24 piece puzzles at 2yo.  he is very good at problem-solving and has been from a very early age.  he is very hand-eye coordinated and his playball teacher says he is very advanced for his age with the ball sports and balance games they play.  he loves to paint and draw.  he thinks flowers are pretty and definitely sees the beauty in nature.  he doesn't seem to need as much sleep as other kids his age and takes a while to "wind down" at night before he finally does go to sleep.

i'm not sure if that means he is gifted or if that is normal for his age.  i myself have a high iq (148) but when i was in school there was no such thing as a gifted child.  my sister's 2 oldest sons have also tested as gifted especially in math skills.

so, gifted or just plain acting out?  the daycare director thinks he needs therapy.  i'd like to get him tested.  advice please!!

g

[mammal_mama]

Your son does sound very intelligent, and possibly gifted, based on the abilities you are describing. As far as the acting-out behavior, this sounds like a very normal human response to being disrespected by those teachers. I'm glad thay are gone!

[whatsnextmom]

Most gifted kids do not reacte this way to boredom. Pushing and hitting other children? Major temper tantrums? Do you know what happened that resulted in these two incidents with the teachers? Whose perspectives did you get on the matter? I'm not at all excusing the teachers but I have to wonder to what extremity he was having behavioral issues before the yelling and the harsher removal from a situation. Teacher's are human and they can get pushed to their limits too. Again, not saying they were in the right at all. People who can't handle difficult situations calmly have no business in childcare and certainly, your child didn't deserve it. I just wish we had a clearer idea of what was happening prior to these two incidents.

He may very well be gifted but I would resist seeing aggressive behavior in a child of almost 4 as a sign of giftedness. Instead, you might consider looking into a new program for him. A fresh start might be helpful. A program that is more preschool than daycare could be a benefit. Have you considered a Montessori or a quality play-based program?

[indigoscot]

the major temper tantrums only happened after the last incident with the teacher who was fired.  for the most part, the hitting was associated with that too.

i witnessed the incident and the teacher's excuse was "your son wasn't listening to me today".  i'm glad he got fired, as mean as that may sound.

if it's not boredom, could it be his classmates not listening to him?  he constantly tells us that his classmates "bother him" by getting in his face and not leaving him alone or by hitting him (and apparently the teachers don't see that just our son's reaction to it).

the daycare is bright horizons and does have a pretty good curriculum.  i think many of the activities bore him because it's the same thing every day - play with puzzles, play with blocks, play in the dramatic play area.  the items that he likes are crafts and when they bake or do experiements or read books.  he does also like outside play.

i am at my wit's end with the daycare director because she does not want to listen to me or deal with the "why" of the acting out just the reaction he has to it.  she thinks he (or we) need therapy.  i do not believe in therapy (no offense to anyone reading).

if he's not gifted i am perfectly ok with that - i know how hard it is to be more intelligent than the majority of the population.  i am just trying to figure out if he is so i can help him deal with that at preschool.

g

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom 

Most gifted kids do not reacte this way to boredom. Pushing and hitting other children? Major temper tantrums? 

He may very well be gifted but I would resist seeing aggressive behavior in a child of almost 4 as a sign of giftedness. Instead, you might consider looking into a new program for him. A fresh start might be helpful. A program that is more preschool than daycare could be a benefit. Have you considered a Montessori or a quality play-based program?

Ditto this.

I think a fresh start may do you both good.

Also ages 2-5 are prime temper tantrum age (for all kiddos).

The pushing/hitting is not atypical--- but it depends on how often and the intensity. Many kids at ages 3/4/5 are dealing with learning not to hit/touch/push...but if it is occurring daily, then it is more of a concern than once a few weeks or isolated incidents. It is also important to talk to him  and possibly do some role playing (standing in line, waiting, sharing, etc). That may give him a 'set response' to certain situations. At age 4 most kids do well with scripted reactions and it is helpful to give them new ideas to respond rather than just saying "we dont hit or Use your words." Some kids need more explicit instruction on what to do (Use the words " excuse me" or " May I have that" or practicing finding an adult to help).

Also, is it the same kids? The same setting (unstructured times? recess? circle time? free play?) that may give you some clues to how to handle it better.

Originally Posted by indigoscot 

if it's not boredom, could it be his classmates not listening to him?  he constantly tells us that his classmates "bother him" by getting in his face and not leaving him alone or by hitting him (and apparently the teachers don't see that just our son's reaction to it).

 i think many of the activities bore him because it's the same thing every day - play with puzzles, play with blocks, play in the dramatic play area.  the items that he likes are crafts and when they bake or do experiements or read books.  he does also like outside play.

i am at my wit's end with the daycare director because she does not want to listen to me or deal with the "why" of the acting out just the reaction he has to it.  she thinks he (or we) need therapy.  i do not believe in therapy (no offense to anyone reading).

if he's not gifted i am perfectly ok with that - i know how hard it is to be more intelligent than the majority of the population.  i am just trying to figure out if he is so i can help him deal with that at preschool.

g

 It could be classmates not listening--- BUT that is typical 3-5 yr old behavior (and beyond). It is frustrating- but it is also part of learning social cues/rules/dynamics. Also, some kiddos perceive 'bothering' different than adults (or other kids) do. A kid standing too close to another may bother one kid and not another or a kid that wants to play alone and feel unhappy if someone wants to share the same area. 

Does your DS play with others? Again, is it specific kids that are 'bothering' him? What age peers does he have?

As for the curriculum--if it is playbased and age appropriate. He should not be too bored, gifted or not. Play-based is set for ages 3-6+ developmentally so the open ended curriculum allows for multi-layers of development. 

If is an academic, letter of the week type curriculum. Then he may be restless if he already knows the material. Look at 'when' he is having trouble. If it is during 'academic' times only then he may be restless if they are doing letter A and he already knows it. If he is having more trouble during free play type activies, then he may need some teacher guidance to select an activity and maintain social boundries while playing. Two totally different issues.

Is he getting enough physical activity?
 

As for Preschool teachers asking for testing on a 3 yr old. That would be unusual unless your DS is reading/writing/ and or you needed it for acceptance to a specialized program. Testing is fairly inaccurate at that age (IQ) and can be very heavily influenced by the kiddos mood, personality, and the testers familiarity with kids that age/gifted preschoolers. Are they requesting testing for social problems? speech? or actual cognitive tests?

If the director is not working with  you--- find a new location.

I also would spent a day observing. See what really happens vs your DS or DS teachers perspective. Sometimes that can make a difference as well.

Your DS sounds very bright - I would not discount with your family history the potential for giftedness. But I think the aggression may be a totally different issue, especially if it is only appearing at preschool and is a *new* development.

[indigoscot]

the hitting is definitely not an every day occurance.  in fact prior to the 2 days this week, he has had a 2 1/2 week spell of not acting out at all in his preschool class.  we have, we think, identified that he has a hard time dealing with transitions or any changes in schedule.   this week of course started with a long weekend.  then the center has opened up summer camp so there are some changes with teachers in the mornings and older/different children there.  his playball class was rescheduled (it's usually on monday) and the center changed the spanish program so there is a new teacher for that.  part of our discussions with the daycare director and her boss was that they would make sure to have enough teachers in the preschool room.  the class is basically full of 3 and 4 year old boys - only 2 girls - and the teachers have admitted before that one of them alone has a hard time monitoring.  yesterday the class only had one teacher.  i have brought that up to the director (again!) but sometimes i feel she just doesn't want to listen.  changing schools really isn't an option.  as an aside i'm not the only parent that takes issue with the director.

he gets "outside" time at preschool twice a day - although with the heatwave we are having that has been reduced somewhat.  we do let him play outside when we get home but again due to the heat that is only for 15-20mins.  this weekend he starts tiny t-ball - he loves sports - and he is looking forward to that.

based on a comment above, we did do some role-play last night and this morning about telling the teacher if a friend "bothered" him.  i will continue to work on that.

the testing / evaluation request is coming from the director.  she claims she has no more ideas on what to do.  i think they thought all the issues were "fixed" since he's had a good run and they slacked off on all the techniques they had been using.  i did find a child psychologist recommended by a friend yesterday and i'll talk with her to get her thoughts.  my worry is that all this stems from the episode with the male teacher who was fired.  the feeling i got from the director yesterday is that she would rather deal with the reaction from my son (the hitting) rather than identify what is causing it.

g

[Tigerle]

I wouldn't discount giftedness being part of the problem, but I wouldn't bother about getting him tested either. At this age, it's hard to test (if he is shy, he may just shut up), and results aren't stable, but with your family history and what you describe, I'd just take it for granted - I do not think testing is going to tell you more than you already know or strongly suspect. Of course kids do not act out aggressively just due to giftedness or just due to boredom, but there are personality traits frequently that go hand in hand with giftedness, such as extreme sensitivity and emotional intensity, and extreme reactions to external stimuli, such as harsh reactions from teachers.

DS had a very bad winter, so bad he was evaluated for ASD, with aggression, OCDish tendencies. explosions, the works. We still don't quite know what it was about - possibly an extreme reaction to things other kids take more in stride, such as a new sibling, a new, somewhat overcrowded classroom, not a good fit with most kids, transitions, winter...We tweaked our routines, we added some supplements, we tried to pay more attention to his sensory diet (still haven't managed to start OT yet) but it seems it was mostly being 3.5 to 4.5, an age he needed to grow out of. We'll see what happens next fall, but I hope things will never look so bleak again.

I think there is something about being gifted and growing out of toddlerhood which makes this age especially hard on kids. I wouldn't jump the gun on testing, rather trying to get the daycare to work with you (I understand about not being able to just up and change schools, sometimes it is just not feasible without major upset to the whole family. What can you do to get the teachers off your back, short of going the eval route?

[indigoscot]

I have another update. Today we had another couple of episodes at preschool, so I was down there twice. To be honest I think ds1 figured out that if he acted out they would call me and i would come. The second episode they actually did things to escalate him and it really got out of control.

I did talk to a child pyschologist this morning. She does not think he needs therapy or testing and that the preschool staff need to give him more positive reinforcement - like giving him stickers for minor accomplishments throughout the day. She said it sounded like he was getting too much negativity from them.

When I took that to the director and her boss they refused to implement any more programs for him and told me he has a serious issue with group care and they had no more ideas on how to handle it. Again they said it had nothing to do with the incident with the teacher. The only thing they wanted me to do was arrange for someone to come into the center and observe him and give them some ideas on what to do next. I really think they were angling for me to remove him from the school.

I did then contact someone a director at another center recommended and guess what? She said the same thing as the child psychologist!!! I will hopefully have someone into center next week. I wonder how many experts I have to talk to before the director and her boss will listen?

g

[hergrace]

Originally Posted by indigoscot 
To be honest I think ds1 figured out that if he acted out they would call me and i would come. The second episode they actually did things to escalate him and it really got out of control.
 

This was a huge issue with my 2E son. It wasn't a conscious thing on his part, but it was his default escape valve.

[whatsnextmom]

The thing is, you really don't want your child in a place where you have to force their hand.

I taught state preschool through the school district for several years. Hitting and pushing were really not that commmon outside the 2's and easy to nip in the bud. I can only think of two that were at the aggression levels you described and they were asked to leave. Only one child ever hit me and he was on the autism spectrum (not saying your child is spectrum, just saying it's rare for kids to hit teachers.) Being asked to leave wasn't just about them being difficult. It's just very hard to turn that behavior around in an environment were the KIDS start to  identify the child as a danger, where other parents are hearing the stories and getting nervous, where the stress levels are high with everyone involved. It becomes less about "how can I help your child" and more about "how can I minimize the damage to the rest." As much as we want to see our hired care givers as wanting the best for our individual child, their priority will always be to the group health as a whole. Plus, there is sort of a small window on getting this behavior under control with any set of people. It might just be past the point where this staff can turn it around even with only positive reinforcement. Give him a fresh start. Also, this is your workplace care facility isn't it? I don't know if I'd want my peers aware of what was happening with my child in this case.

Take the advice of experts who haven't observed or worked with your child during these episodes like you would with advice on these boards, with a grain of salt. They are only hearing one side of the story and they haven't seen your child in action.

I know it's hard. My little brother had aggression issues (way more extreme that you are talking I'm sure.) He was sweet at home but man, at school, he hit kids and teachers. The more he did so, the more negative his environment became. The more negative school was, the more the aggresion would start popping up at home. My parents did their best but looking back, they wish they'd scrapped all the therapy and behavior contracts and just got him out of the places that were obviously not working.

Originally Posted by indigoscot 

I have another update. Today we had another couple of episodes at preschool, so I was down there twice. To be honest I think ds1 figured out that if he acted out they would call me and i would come. The second episode they actually did things to escalate him and it really got out of control.

I did talk to a child pyschologist this morning. She does not think he needs therapy or testing and that the preschool staff need to give him more positive reinforcement - like giving him stickers for minor accomplishments throughout the day. She said it sounded like he was getting too much negativity from them.

When I took that to the director and her boss they refused to implement any more programs for him and told me he has a serious issue with group care and they had no more ideas on how to handle it. Again they said it had nothing to do with the incident with the teacher. The only thing they wanted me to do was arrange for someone to come into the center and observe him and give them some ideas on what to do next. I really think they were angling for me to remove him from the school.

I did then contact someone a director at another center recommended and guess what? She said the same thing as the child psychologist!!! I will hopefully have someone into center next week. I wonder how many experts I have to talk to before the director and her boss will listen?

g

[spedteacher30]

To back up what the PP said, we pulled our son at this time last year from a setting where things were going downhill fast. It was the best decision we've ever made as parents. He is doing fine in a new setting.

[AllisonR]

I agree with the others to pull him out. It does not matter how "wonderful" or convenient a daycare center is, if your child is not doing well there. Everyone is now stuck in their engrained roles. They have hinted they don't want him there. It may not be the professional attitude, or even the right attitude, but you should learn from this message, and do what will be the best for your son. Give him a healthy start elsewhere. 

As an example I was put in a top-notch private grade school, along with my brother and sister. They soared there. I failed miserably, socially, academically, physically, mentally... but it was convenient for my parents to have us all at the same place, and they were so enthralled with the great reputation of that school that they could not see the forest through the trees. Trying to fix the system I was in, instead of moving me, was never going to work. I finally got out, and got my chance, and soared. But it took 5 horrid years. It should not have taken so long. Plus, it is a lot easier to undo a month or 6 months of damage than it is to undo a year, or 5 years. 

Look at a play-base, open-ended facility that will allow your son to develop his interests in the areas and pace he needs and wants. 3 year olds, gifted or not, should not be doing "schooling".

[joensally]

Looking at your thread title, would him being gifted excuse the behaviour? 

What I understand you saying is that he's an environment that's not working for him, where sub-optimal things happened, and where the staff don't want to work with you and your son to change the current trend.  I think that it would be a great idea to look at a new situation to give him a fresh start, while also working on his social-emotional and self-regulation skills.  SocialThinking has a great range of books on social skills and self-regulation, and you might also want to look at sensory processing disorder strategies (ie The Out of Sync child).  I'm not at all saying that your child has any issues at all that won't resolve in a better-suited environment, but I've found these resources very valuable in supporting my kids to navigate their world. 

[indigoscot]

To answer the last post, no there is no excuse for hitting none at all. The class he is in has been somewhat out of control for a while now, other parents have commented and one has complained (the director tried to tell her that her son was ADHD). The boys push, hit and th row things at each other, not just our son. Is it a good environment for any of them? I think not any more. However, in the area we work there is little to no chance of finding anywhere else for him to go. Our younger son is also at the center and my partner is currently pregnant.

This weekend, as another poster mentioned, his aggression did spill over into home. There was a lot of crying and talking and working on techniques for his feeling angry/mad. We have noticed that he has learned a lot of new skills recently. He night time potty trained himself, has learned to write his name and his drawing skills have gone from scribbles to drawing people, houses and soccer goals. We don't get any feedback from preschool at all on that they purely fixate on the negative.

To answer the preschool teacher post - our center advertises itself as better than state run preschool because they have a 1 to 10 ratio where our state is 1 to 15. It has not been 1 to 10 in the past few months and may be there now due to it being summer and some kids being out. The director would never admit to that. There have been lots of other issues with the director - we are very hands on parents and I think we have been labelled as a pain to deal with.

What does 2E mean please?

g

[whatsnextmom]

It's common for private preschools to say they are better than state. In our state, preschool ratio is 1-8 for ages 3 to 5. Daycares are very, very different. Their ratio numbers can be higher and even if they claim to have a "preschool" room, it's not neccessarily preschool. We were a preschool only (3 teachers, 24 kids.) Thing is though, State preschools in our area require university degrees, at least one of the three teachers in every class to have an elementary teaching credential, massive training, have actual curriculum and are heavily monitered. Private preschools can do bare minimum (which is like 18 units of early childhood development at the junior college... aka, "how to make puppets.") One of my own kids went to a private preschool and it was fantastic but again, the teachers were a little older, highly educated, passionate about early childhood education, ect. However, I've had to tour a lot and there are some pretty angry, ignorant, under-educated and bitter preschool teachers/caregivers.... particularly when "childcare" is the primary function of the facility. It's a pretty thankless job that pays next to nothing. You either get people who are passionate or you get people who just don't know what else to do. I'm guessing this facility has more of the "don't know what else to do" variety with the turn-over you've mentioned. I know it's hard but he at the very least needs a break from this place. Have you considered a home care provider for maybe the summer at least?

[joensally]

I agree with whatnextmom that a break, if not a wholesale change, could shift this for him.  I've never been sold on "school" for the under 6s, and there's research that shows montessori and play-based are better long-term in maintaining a love of learning in a classroom environment.  Add to that a gifted child typically being beyond the curriculum likely provided by a preschool, and it's a recipe for trouble. 

The reason I asked if his being gifted would excuse the behaviour is I think that it is really important to think about why that would make a difference, and not fall into the trap of thinking that gifted excuses.  A gifted kid who's hitting still needs to have help developing the tools for self-regulation.  

2E means twice-exceptional - both gifted and with some other complexity (ie learning disability, ADHD, Asperger's).  2E kids can have a really hard time in typical environments as they're even more asynchronous than "just" gifted kids (high level skills and low level skills, sometimes in the same areas of development), and because they're statistically even greater outliers so the teachers have less experience with the issues presented.

It sounds like he's also going through a developmental growth spurt, and that can certainly effect behaviour.

[loraxc]

We also had preschool teachers suggest that we have our child's IQ tested when she was about 3 and was having issues at daycare. We did not do it, since it seemed clear that testing at that age would be expensive and likely inaccurate. However, it was striking to me that they suggested it--it made me think that they felt they were not meeting her needs somehow. We kept her at the school, but it was never an ideal place for her. They also vaguely hinted that she might need therapy. In any case, when this sort of things happens, to me it indicates that the school is feeling incapable of dealing with the kid, which may or may NOT mean the kid needs outside help or anything like that. It could just be bad chemistry/poor leadership/etc.

FWIW, I don't see the level of aggression you describe as highly unusual. If it's daily and severe (kids are truly hurt), that's different, but many, MANY kids I know in the 3-5 age range still occasionally hit. In fact, I know 6 and 7yos who are still hitting and pushing their classmates occasionally.

[indigoscot]

Today I decided to spend some time observing the preschool class.  This morning i went down right before breakfast (his last week meltdown time).  I did make sure he had a snack in the morning when i dropped him off.  He played lincoln logs with me and a couple of friends and then lego with the same friends.  There were a couple of minor issues over how the lego should be built - ds1 tends to be a little bossy in that respect. 

At breakfast time one child was throwing another's napkin off the table over and over and then began hitting him and another boy with his book.  Since they explicitly told me NOT to intervene if it wasn't my child I let it go and it took a few minutes for the teacher to see what was going on.  She did raise her voice (not yelling but definitely not soft and calm) and had him sit in the quiet corner.  During all of this to-do ds1 sat quietly at the table reading his book (Ferdinand which is a favourite).  He was reading aloud making up the story, which always makes me smile.  Breakfast itself was uneventful and he was OK when I left to come back upstairs.

I went down again mid morning because there was a new playball coach and i wanted to meet him.  Playball was also uneventful - ds1 LOVES sports.  I stayed through some of lunch and i could see he was starting to get antsy because he was hungry - and lunch was late.  However, he was eating well (on his third helping of mac cheese when I headed out) and again didn't fuss when I left.

Now i know its different because i was down there but besides a few minor "normal" issues between the kids I didn't see anything untoward.  Of course the teachers were on their best behaviour and the main one who is older and definitely a disciplinarian (and to be honest more suited to the pre-k class) did not appreciate me being there.  I could tell by her tone of voice and body language.

We also told ds1 to clap his hands loudly and say (in time with the clapping) "i'm mad, i'm mad, i'm really, really mad", in the hope that it will give his hands something to do and alert the teachers that something is going on.  I let all the teachers and the asst director know (the director is out today).

g

[LynnS6]

Why can't he be both?

Your son is 'telling' you that this daycare is not working for him. Please listen to his actions.

Originally Posted by indigoscot 

To answer the last post, no there is no excuse for hitting none at all. The class he is in has been somewhat out of control for a while now, other parents have commented and one has complained (the director tried to tell her that her son was ADHD). The boys push, hit and throw things at each other, not just our son. Is it a good environment for any of them? I think not any more. However, in the area we work there is little to no chance of finding anywhere else for him to go. Our younger son is also at the center and my partner is currently pregnant.

Can you at least explore putting him somewhere else? With three kids in the family to provide daycare for (assuming that your partner is going back to work), something like a nanny or an in-home daycare might well be better, and cost about the same. It behooves you (and your son) to explore this option. National chains are only as good as the local directors make them, despite all the marketing literature in the world. .Some of them are truly horrible. It sounds to me like the one you're at has not been well managed -- the enrollment hasn't been well balanced so that there's a mix of temperament types, they've hired bad teachers, they try to put their problems off onto the parents. What's keeping your from investigating other options?