Constant tantrums, how to teach self control and calming down skills?

[PeacemongerMom]

My son is five, he has tantrums all day long. Whenever anything big or small doesn't go his, he screams, makes threats, says hateful things, and throws things. He used to hit and kick, sometimes me, sometimes the wall, or the sofa, but he has almost completely stopped that. I don't even know when he did it last. For example, last night I was tired, didn't want to cook and went to get a pizza well he didn't want pizza, he wanted Mcdonald's. I was not getting Mcdonald's. So he screamed in the car, told me that he hated me, I'm a horrible lady, he is going to hit me and he is going to cut the pizza place in half. I will estimate the screaming went on five minutes and after that there was still a lot of mean comments and loud complaints. That's pretty typical, just take it and multiple it about 7 times a day.

I lean toward Unconditional Parenting, after reading Alfie Kohn I knew I wanted my son to do the right thing for the right reason, just doing the right thing for the wrong reason, like a bribe or fear of punishment wasn't good enough. I have tried ignoring the tantrums. I have tried to get him to work his anger out in other ways like jumping on the trampoline for example or hitting a pillow. When he is so anger, he doesn't want to calm down and there's no making him...which of course I guess it wouldn't really be calm if it was forced.

Then a used copy of P.E.T. found me. As I started reading, I loved it. It also talked about how rewards and punishments don't work in the long term. I haven't finished the book but it has to big points, one is active listening and the other is compromise for problem solving. A few days ago my son was ranting on about how he was going to punch me over something so minor I don't remember what it was. I said to him, You're angry, you're so angry you want to hit me. The authors premise is that when children have their feelings validated and they feel heard the strong feelings dissipate. Well it did. He ranted on with a few more words, looked a little confused, stopped in his tracks. Never had one of his tantrums been so quickly curbed. Hooray, success, right? Not quite. It seemed to have lost it's effect after only one use. The next time I used it, it had no effect and he kept right on screaming.

I also used the books problem solving technique. Find a solution you BOTH can accept, get the child in on generating ideas. Well my son will not contribute ideas. But anyway, it worked once. After breakfast I wanted him to brush his teeth and then go feed the cats. He wanted to feed the cats then brush his teeth. We discussed it and I decided that would be acceptable but he had to follow through. Sure enough he did, he even reminded me that he had to brush his teeth. But sometimes there is no compromise, like getting a toy at the store and going to mc donalds's for dinner. It's just no and he has to be able to accept that without a major breakdown.

He is going to kindergarden in the fall and I am really worried. He already has been picked on by kids. Some kids have said they don't like him and he's mean. This really hurts his feelings. I understand why the kids say this and they are probably not allowed to act that way. I'm fed up with them and need them to stop. I'm also building resentment for having to deal with this so frequently. He NEEDS self control and calming down skills. How do you teach these?

How would you handle this? What do you think about the mutual problem solving approach? Aren't there times when a kid just has to learn to deal?

[ssh]

I taught my DD some simple meditation style calming techniques right before she turned 5. We practiced a few times when everything was ok. Basically she was breathing out bad feelings (anger or sadness), slowly, and then breathing in good feelings (the love people have for you), using visualization to imagine the bad feelings leaving her body and the good ones coming in. It helped along with talking about appropriate ways to react to anger or upsetness when she was calm. She was over reacting when she got hurt or upset, not quite a tantrum but still pretty loud.

About 7 times a day seems like a lot. Is he getting at least 10 hours of sleep per day? Also his blood sugar could be low. Does it seem to happen more when he should be hungry?

[mary934]

' in the moment ' in the midst of frustration  medidation , breathing etc is great . A good book is ' mindfulness for children ' . check for tiredness , not eating well - have plenty of healthy snacks and drink around 

Problem solving means finding solutions that avoid frustration. Breathing helps with the symptoms, but does not solve problems. Sometimes giving him the language to deal with frustration - I am frustrated, diappointed with ..... , but at least ... . Also try and give kids a wider time horizon - see a weekly schedule , so if a play date is cancelled we have another one lined up at the end of the week. etc 

I recommend looking at the Collaborative problem solving approach - CPS by Ross Greene . The latest editions of the explosive child . lost at school explain the approach and help with the scripts needed for cps. There are 3 useful sites  - http://livesinthebalance.org , http://thinkkids.org and a blog with combines Alfie Kohn's  Unconditional parenting with CPS -  here is a collection of video clips http://tiny.cc/8z10l . The blog summarizes a lot of Dr Greenes Blog radio program - see plan b , drlling down for conerns etc

From sites mentioned - validate needs and concerns  , not feelings . The 1st step is to gather info about the kid's concerns , drilling down concerns - not easy , takes 30-40 experiences so it is recommended plenty of one on one conversations , using dialog question - him speaking we listening , focusing on perspective taking , identifying concerns, problem solving of non-emotive , other peoples , kids problems. Kids lack skills and these are taught in the context of unmet concerns and unsolved problems in a proactive way , not in the moment 

Again it is not easy , but every moment on the way there is learning. Older brothers, buddy , buddy tutors are also recommended.

The way to go is to check the paper work  - the thinking skillsinventory / ALSUP  assessed lacking skills and unsolved problem check list , the plan B cheat sheet , the videos , relax the environment by lowering the rope etc and start talking , I mean listening . Talking does not help because we do the talking and not the kid . It takes a lot of skill to get a kid to talk , again not easy 

The resources are great , CPS is a process not a technique 

I hope this helps

Mary 

[D_McG]

I think having that level of outrageous behavior ignored must be a maddening and surreal experience for him.  On what planet do we get to behave like that with no consequence?

Also as a recovering yeller  that kind of explosive behavior is kind of addictive.  It's a release.  

Here there are MAJOR consequences for that kind of behavior.  I will not be raged at.  No way.  

I also wonder if he's sleeping enough.

And also to add that there are consequences for behavior whether you like it or not.  The consequence now  is that his peers think badly about him.  Personally I'd rather my son (say for example) miss a month of McDonald's for his behavior than lose friends.  

Edited by D_McG - 6/3/11 at 9:50am

[madskye]

Add a hug while you're trying to get him to problem solve.  It is counterintuitive after people telling you for years that you must stand firm and never give in, but this has really saved my relationship with my DD, 6, who was throwing similar tantrums from 3-5.5.

I tell her I notice that she's getting frustrated early on and ask her to slow down or tell me her problem.  I give her a hug.  Literally, sometimes she just needs a quick hug and a vent and it's over.  I highly recommend The Explosive Child book for reading--I actually tried to send the author a fan email because it helped us when nothing else was working.  It helped diffusing the situation become second nature to me and it did help her learn to be more flexible and find solutions.  If you search on my screenname I have a thread about DD's tantrums and the I got a ton of great advice there.

[elmh23]

Originally Posted by PeacemongerMom 

He is going to kindergarden in the fall and I am really worried. He already has been picked on by kids. Some kids have said they don't like him and he's mean. This really hurts his feelings. I understand why the kids say this and they are probably not allowed to act that way. I'm fed up with them and need them to stop. I'm also building resentment for having to deal with this so frequently. He NEEDS self control and calming down skills. How do you teach these?

Honestly, it doesn't sound like UP is working well for him.  For the bolded, why do the other kids need to stop?  You state that you understand why the kids feel this way.

also, I don't really get how he's supposed to know how to behave if he's never taught how to behave.  You don't need to bribe or punish to do that, just talk to him bout his behavior.

[oaktreemama]

You know sometimes my biggest complaint about a lot of "gentle" parenting techniques is they often seem to exist and offer solutions only in the abstract. Real life parenting isn't ever abstract as you are finding out.

What are the consequences for hitting you or screaming at you or throwing things? Is he doing this to other kids and that is why they don't like him? Frankly from your post it sounds like UP is failing to meet his needs. You need to parent the kid in front of you.

I would start with working with your child to develop real consequences for his behavior, and real strategies for him to help manage his outbursts. I am a huge believer in ensuring kids understand what is ok behavior and what is not. I also firmly believe that kids need our help in learning to manage themselves.

[Sanveann]

To be honest, I would probably consult a behavioral therapist. This is absolutely unacceptable behavior, and it sounds like having someone else help guide you through it may help. It might also help you see whether or not there may be additional issues going on.

We deal with frequent tantrums with my 4-year-old, who is on the spectrum. One of the things that first tipped us off that something was going on with him was that when he got worked up, NOTHING helped. Not holding him, not talking to him, not ignoring him, NOTHING. We would have two-hour tantrums over, say, a pair of socks. Learning from professionals how to interact with him when he was enraged has helped hugely -- now we have maybe one or two five-minute tantrums a day, if that. (Btw, I am NOT saying I think your son has ASD, but it may be possible there's some sort of underlying condition that is making things worse, and if there is, the sooner it's addressed, the better, for both of you!)

[mom2grrls]

Is he getting enough sleep?

[kmeyrick]

Getting "fed up" with the other kids is not going to help at all. If he is mean to other children they will dislike him and that is a natural consequence that is inevitable. You need to help him understand that he cannot be mean to other kids and expect them to like him. You have unconditional love for him, but his peers don't. He may need a lot of guidance, rehearsal, and modeling of how to interact with his peers, because they have no interest at all in being treated the way you are. Why should they be?

I think there's nothing wrong with expressing to him how his behavior turns you off as well. It's not punishment; it's learning that bad behavior gets bad results in life. I don't think you need to be taking this kind of abuse.

Now, on further reading, are you fed up with the other kids or fed up with the tantrums? I can't understand your wording.

[chaimom]

Originally Posted by oaktreemama 

You know sometimes my biggest complaint about a lot of "gentle" parenting techniques is they often seem to exist and offer solutions only in the abstract. Real life parenting isn't ever abstract as you are finding out.

What are the consequences for hitting you or screaming at you or throwing things? Is he doing this to other kids and that is why they don't like him? Frankly from your post it sounds like UP is failing to meet his needs. You need to parent the kid in front of you.

I would start with working with your child to develop real consequences for his behavior, and real strategies for him to help manage his outbursts. I am a huge believer in ensuring kids understand what is ok behavior and what is not. I also firmly believe that kids need our help in learning to manage themselves.

Totally agree with this.  I don't think it's "gentle" to let a child behave so poorly that his peers dislike him.   I suggest 1-2-3 Magic or another parenting book that explains to you about consequences and how they help a child learn to manage his behavior.

 .  

[PeacemongerMom]

I'm not fed up with the other children at all, like I said I understand their reaction to him. I'm fed up with his constant outbursts, sorry that I was unclear. I have talked to him and talked to him and talked to him, ad nauseum. I talk to him when he is calm. It makes no difference when he gets upset. Tonight we were playing miniature golf, he was having a great time until we got to the last hole. He didn't realize that the ball goes down the automatic return so when he went to retrieve it and it was gone, tantrum. He told me, it was my fault, he hated me. He was genuinely upset, real tears and all. He is so fatalistic in his thinking, it drives me mad. Everything is the last, permanently over, the worst case scenario, etc. In this case the game was over and the ball was gone but his thinking is always fatalistic. His pre k teacher told me that every time he had to put away and clean up his favorite activity it was a huge meltdown as if he was never going to get to use it again. Even though he used it everyday, multiple times a day. It is so frustrating because he is a very bright boy, surely he grasps this concept on a cognitive level.

I think he's stuck in a rut. He's trapped himself. He's reacted this way for so long, even though we have discussed other ways to deal with strong feelings, he can't stop himself. I thought it was interesting the poster who replied as a former yeller, she can say the yelling was a release. That's how I think it is with him. I work with children too, there is a toddler boy at work who is never angry or frustrated because as soon as he is, he bites another child, and all his negativity is released, he goes on his merry way. Obviously that is not an acceptable way to deal with emotions. What's interesting is this boy at work, if I intervene before he bites, he whines, moans, rocks, is visibly restless and agitated. He didn't get his bite fix. These negative coping mechanisms, such as biting or tantrums, become very strong habits.

I'm still not convinced he needs consequences, what he needs is to learn new coping methods, the tough part is breaking the old tantrum habit. His teacher used a reward program with him at school it worked for a week and a half. I was not surprised the success was short lived because that's not true motivation. I am conflicted because I have to agree that the way I'm currently doing things is not working. For those that say you would give your child consequences, what kind of consequences do you or would you use?

[chaimom]

I have a 5 yo old, too.  And it's hard to say what consequences I would use, because it seems like your son's reactions are so extreme when he doesn't get his way.   It's almost like he needs a reset button or boot camp to reset his reactions. 

Here are my thoughts:

Consequences help your son learn to control himself, which right now he hasn't had to do because he doesn't have consequences.  If he can't watch tv because he was yelling at you to change the channel, he's going to learn to stop yelling at you for that.  If his consequence is going to his room for hitting you, he's going to stop hitting you.   Immediately, the consequence helps him realize his behavior wasn't OK-- and long-term, it helps teach him self control.  

In addition to consequences, he needs positive reinforcement (not rewards).  "Notice" him doing a behavior you want to reinforce.  Say something like, "I noticed you got your shoes on when I asked.  That was helpful."  Or "I noticed you took your turn without complaining.  That took a lot of patience." It's validating to him and I found it really worked to help my kids know what was expected of them when they were younger.

Specifically, if any of my kids called me or their siblings names or were as disrespectful as you describe, they would go to their rooms immediately. There wouldn't be any discussion about it.  And no opportunity for compromise.  It's an opportunity for them to think about better ways to communicate.  And in our house, it would be OK to throw a tantrum-- just not in a place where it bothers everyone else.  So if my son started yelling or whining, I would ask him to go to the other room because the yelling hurts my ears. 

In the case of throwing a tantrum when having to put away a toy, it sounds like your son needs extra help with transitioning.  I would remind him before he starts playing with the toy that he has xx minutes to play with it and that you'll need him to cooperate with that rule.  Then when it's 5 minutes from time, I would remind him again but also say "and if you throw a tantrum (or can't cooperate nicely), you won't be able to play with the toy tomorrow." Then, if he throws the tantrum, he can't play with it next time. 

[D_McG]

But how do you NOT have consequences?  Isn't that like living in an alternate universe?  So he has a giant fit about mini golf and you go "ok pet!  let's carry on with our day!".  How do you NOT go "omg we are not playing minigolf again until you're 7 if you can't get a grip" or "if you can't stop this we're spending the rest of the day at home".  I don't understand how you can say "I'm not convinced he needs consequences".  By deliberately avoiding consequences (besides the big ones like kids thinking he's a jerk!) you're keeping him stuck in this rut which is, I think totally unnatural.  This whole no consequence thing is like a bizarre experiment gone wrong.  Real life has consequences for behavior!  

Now, if you told me that he was still explosive in the absence of a more logical approach to his behavior then I would definitely suggest a behavioral eval/therapist.

[PeacemongerMom]

Originally Posted by D_McG 

But how do you NOT have consequences?  Isn't that like living in an alternate universe?  So he has a giant fit about mini golf and you go "ok pet!  let's carry on with our day!".  How do you NOT go "omg we are not playing minigolf again until you're 7 if you can't get a grip" or "if you can't stop this we're spending the rest of the day at home".  I don't understand how you can say "I'm not convinced he needs consequences".  By deliberately avoiding consequences (besides the big ones like kids thinking he's a jerk!) you're keeping him stuck in this rut which is, I think totally unnatural.  This whole no consequence thing is like a bizarre experiment gone wrong.  Real life has consequences for behavior!  

Now, if you told me that he was still explosive in the absence of a more logical approach to his behavior then I would definitely suggest a behavioral eval/therapist.

No I did not say OK pet let's carry on with our day, you said that I said that.  I told him to stop whining that no one wanted to listen to that.  I explained to him that balls have to go back or there wouldn't be any way to play the game.

Let's look at consequences imposed on kids. Kids who are dealt consequences are usually fairly well behaved in front of their parents or other adults these are the kids that get the pats on the backs and the accolades for being such good boys and girls. When no one is watching, listening or they think no adult knows what is going on they make some bad choices and exhibit some bad behavior. What have consequences really done for those kids? What have they learned, really?

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by PeacemongerMom 

Let's look at consequences imposed on kids. Kids who are dealt consequences are usually fairly well behaved in front of their parents or other adults these are the kids that get the pats on the backs and the accolades for being such good boys and girls. When no one is watching, listening or they think no adult knows what is going on they make some bad choices and exhibit some bad behavior. 

This has not been my experience, at all.  
 

[AllyRae]

Yes, this, exactly.  Kids need to be taught appropriate social skills.  Not all kids have the innate ability to just pick up on them.  And part of unconditional parenting is PARENTING.  I think sometimes, that part gets forgotten.  You can still love and accept your child, but you also need to help him navigate the world.  A child who is losing friends because of his behavior will not be a happy child.  If you are sure there are no issues like autism at play, then you need to get on some good behavior modification.  Every action has a consequence...would you rather the consequence of your child's behavior be you setting a limit, or him going to school and not having any friends?  If it were me, I'd rather me set the limit than have that limit set by his peers.  If a child gets away with raging to get what he wants, for 5 years, and then you send him to a place where people WILL impose limits on him whether you agree to them or not, he will be very very very confused.  Or, he will be a very well behaved child there, and then continue to give you his worst behavior.  I really do believe that children need limits and boundaries (even adults have boundaries...there are certain things that you are not allowed to do.  If you do them, there are consequences for those actions.  If adults were given the same reign that Unconditional Parenting gives children, there would be complete and utter chaos.).  Kids crave limits.  They don't have to be super strict and stifling, but they need to be there--children need to feel safe and secure and know what is expected of them...otherwise they get confused and anxious and begin to rage.  As a parent, you need to figure out how you can give him the limits he needs while fostering creativity and personality.  And if you don't do it, the school will...his peers will set those personal boundaries through bullying and teasing and witholding friendship...the school officials will set them through punishments and possibly expulsion if the violence was bad enough.  

I strongly suggest a full psychological evaluation and medical evaluation to rule out autism, a psych condition, or a biological reason for his rage.  And then seek out a behavior therapist or child psychologist that can help you both establish good boundaries and rules.  Trust me...if you do not, and he attends school with that behavior, it will not take long before they too recommend an evaluation.
 

I also want to add that part of attachment parenting is listening to the child's cues.  Your child is setting off clear cues that something is not right--that he is feeling angry or anxious or out of control and some need is not being met.  I think that those cues are being ignored because of a fear of stifling him.  He is crying out for something...listen to those cues.

Originally Posted by chaimom 

Totally agree with this.  I don't think it's "gentle" to let a child behave so poorly that his peers dislike him.   I suggest 1-2-3 Magic or another parenting book that explains to you about consequences and how they help a child learn to manage his behavior.

 .  

[AllyRae]

Every child makes bad choices some of the time.  I'd rather have a child who makes a bad choice and learns from it, but is in general a well behaved, pleasant, happy child than one who is so full of range and anger and can't navigate the world.  And this is coming from a parent who has a child with autism and a child with reactive attachment disorder--both conditions which have rages and the like as symptoms.  I have to impose limits to keep those in check, and the kids need it.  

Let's flip this around.  What is YOUR kid learning?  Because it seems like his constant raging due to lack of consequences IS actually having consequences...it's just now, you're not in control of those consequences.  If you impose consequences, you can control the severety, the duration, and you can talk about them.  Society has a way of imposing consequences all by itself, and they are not always going to be all nice and pretty ones.  A 5 year old who can't have friends and is picked on because of his behavior will have more long-term nasty psychological effects than getting sent to his room for a break to calm himself down.  

Add to it, the other consequences of this?  His mom is constantly stressed out by his behavior, and so there is likely some tension between them which, for a young child, can cause a huge amount of insecurity.  His body is in a constant state of fight or flight--an extremely unhealthy place for a body to be, which leads to chronic inflammation, digestion issues, psychological issues including anxiety and depression, etc.

So, there ARE consequences for his behaviors.  And they aren't very gentle at all.  There is not a single behavior that happens where there is not a consequence...
 

Originally Posted by PeacemongerMom 

No I did not say OK pet let's carry on with our day, you said that I said that.  I told him to stop whining that no one wanted to listen to that.  I explained to him that balls have to go back or there wouldn't be any way to play the game.

Let's look at consequences imposed on kids. Kids who are dealt consequences are usually fairly well behaved in front of their parents or other adults these are the kids that get the pats on the backs and the accolades for being such good boys and girls. When no one is watching, listening or they think no adult knows what is going on they make some bad choices and exhibit some bad behavior. What have consequences really done for those kids? What have they learned, really?

[mamazee]

I do the whole UP thing and my older dd had tantrums still at 5 - she stopped around 6 I think? - but she did stop without me needing to impose any consequences. And I'm pretty sure that it was just her temperament and not UP that caused the tantrums because the little one never has tantrums and I'm the same with her. And I was punished for having tantrums and I had them until I was 8. Some kids have tantrums longer than others.

I think kids learn thorugh tantrums and trying to stop them isn't as useful as trying to get them past that stage. For my older dd, I would briefly and calmly empathize when she had a tantrum, as in "you sound angry you didn't get X", and then just let her have her tantrum. I didn't get involved, I didn't feed the drama, it was her tantrum and she had it on her own. When the tantrum was over, I'd give her love and treat her the same as before the tantrum as as if there hadn't been a tantrum. And she did outgrow them. But anyway one thing they learn is that getting upset doesn't get you what you want, even if your parents want you to have it to - that sometimes things just don't go how we want. It's the concept of futility, and it takes some kids longer to get it than others. But he needs to not be able to blame you for things not going his way and understand that it's simply futility, so I would not set yourself up on "the other team" but present yourself on his side. "Oh, you wanted the toy from McDonald's. I wish you could have it too." If he places the blame on you, then it's still a case of trying to scream long enough unti you give in. If he undertands that some things simply aren't going to happen, that it's futile to get upset over some things, he'll learn to move on.

I would also look at sleep and diet. My older dd does much better with her behavior through the whole day right through to bedtime if she starts her day with a protein-based breakfast, like eggs, instead of a grain based breakfast, like cereal. And she has nothing sweet in the morning, so no pancakes or anything with syrup, because sweet things in the morning also cause her to have more trouble.

But at 9 she is very under control and happy and has lots of friends. She is still dramatic, but that's just who she is. Some kids are more intense and have tantrums longer, but they might still be learning this concept of futility.

Like I said - I had tantrums until I was 8, so I remember them. It wasn't fun. But I didn't understand that I couldn't always have what I wanted either. Some people never learn that, and then as adults flip out at people in the parking lot if they don't get the parking spot they had their eye on. It's a good lesson to learn and a big part of maturity.

[NellieKatz]

I agree with what you are saying here, but only partially. I think that yes, if you are doing some kind of arbitrary punishment TO a kid, you may get the kind of sneakiness or rebellion that you describe. But to me, if my kid was freaking out at mini golf (and I saw it was a pattern and not just some one-off weird day he was having), to say "we're going home right now," put down the golf clubs, pile the family in the car and go home......that would (a) be a reasonable consequence, totally related to the offense, (b) be VERY memorable to the child, and (c) protect your boundaries and teach him what you are willing to tolerate. In other words if you're going to go to the trouble and expense of bringing the family to a fun event, you expect everyone to behave appropriately, or you won't do it. I don't mean he has to stuff his feelings, but he would have to vent his frustrated feelings in a way that didn't ruin the event for you & others in the area.

It wouldn't be some arbitrary thing you are doing TO him to change his behavior. You would be doing what YOU need to do, setting limits with what YOU are willing to put up with. There is a difference. I mean, if he can find someone willing to take him to fun places if he's going to have regular furious freakouts, more power to him. That person isn't you. 

My son ran away from me, laughing, in the grocery store once. It was back when I was being a really bossy, jerky parent; I hadn't really got the hang of things yet. He was getting a huge kick out of running away and laughing at me. He was small enough where I could pick him up. When I did catch him, I left the small basket of groceries right on the ground, picked up my son and left the store. Now, I am sorry to the employees who were stuck putting those things away. I'd never done that before and never did it since. But my son never forgot that incident. Mama has some things she will NOT tolerate.  :-)
 

Originally Posted by PeacemongerMom 

Let's look at consequences imposed on kids. Kids who are dealt consequences are usually fairly well behaved in front of their parents or other adults these are the kids that get the pats on the backs and the accolades for being such good boys and girls. When no one is watching, listening or they think no adult knows what is going on they make some bad choices and exhibit some bad behavior. What have consequences really done for those kids? What have they learned, really?