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~~~~~~~~~~*JUNE* 2011 INFERTILITY ONE THREAD~~~~~~~~~~ - Page 3

post #41 of 149

Monkey, Brichole, thanks so much for the kind words. Ugh, this is so hard. I still haven't started so now I'm getting a little worried - no cramps or anything. I'll talk to my RE in a few hours if still nothing.


RosieL, I'm so sorry that you have to be here and hope you barely have a chance to settle in! That being said, the gals on this thread are totally amazing and I hope you find the support you need here. I don't have experience with male factor personally, but maybe others will have some perspective and experience to share with you. Do you guys have an RE yet? I think it is key to have an RE you trust. I've learned that so much of reproductive medicine is judgment - that is, your individual doctor's judgment. It sounds like that's especially so with low Kruger morphology. Also, I would request a 7dpo progesterone level to check out your spotting - my RE supplements anything less than 10 on a natural cycle. Mine is usually just under 10 (though I've never spotted) so I end up supplementing.


I don't know if this helps, but it helped me to know that if you do have to pay out-of-pocket, most REs give discounts and have payment plans. If you can lease a car, you can do IVF. Obviously, it's not ideal and I certainly hope you don't have to go that route. I just wanted to mention this because coming to it myself, overwhelmed, never having imagined I'd walk into a doctor's office with the word "IVF" in the practice name, it helped me to know that it wasn't "pay $25,000 up front or no treatment." By the way, I'm doing a PhD too. I don't know that I want to be a prof anymore, though.

post #42 of 149

Gozal- I am so sorry to hear your news. Of course you have the right to be devastated. That is a very hard thing to go through. Big hugs to you.


RosieL- Welcome. Sorry you have to be here, but you will find that this board is full of caring, supportive people.


Brichole- Thank you for saying that I am a wonderful wife. Hopefully DH realizes it too. He still hasn't figured out where he wants to do the second SA or if he even feels the need to anymore.I'm hoping we might be able to do IUI instead of IVF since I don't have any O problems. Although we hope not to take the adoption route, we have started talking a little bit about what we would want from an adoption.

post #43 of 149

Gozal, I'm so sorry. Is it possible that things will turn out ok in the end? Maybe it was just a blip? I'm going to continue to think positively, in hopes that everything turns out ok. Big hugs!


Deborah, good luck with everything. It does sound like IVF and ICSI is your best option. I have a friend whose DH also got bad news with their SA so they are the the midst of IVF. Hopefully, it works out well for you. As for your DH getting another SA, it sounds like it probably isn't necessary but it is nice that you are humoring him! :o) Although I have to say, my DH got his first SA and the results weren't great...excellent count, good motility but morphology was low. That gets me to Rosie (Welcome, by the way!). My DH also had poor morphology according to the first SA. He was close to normal on one of the tests but the Krueger test showed poor morphology (I think a 2, like your DH). Anyway, we've been to two fertility clinics and according to those results, we would have to do icsi. However, his most recent SA turned out to be excellent in all aspects. Honestly, I don't know how that happened but I will tell you that I've been making him take his vitamins; his vitamins also include a healthy dose of vitamin D3 (1000 IU). If your DH isn't taking vitamins, maybe that would help? i know it couldn't hurt!


AFM, taking letrozole for a future IUI. Just had my HSG done this morning and it was normal (as expected) so still no answers about why I'm infertile (I guess that's why they call it unexplained infertility, huh?) DH and I are scoping our IVF places and we're choosing between my current clinic and one in Maryland, which is 3-4 hours away. The reason we're looking at that clinic (Shady Grove) is because they have an unbeatable guarantee. For a flat fee (22K), they will attempt 6 IVFs and if we don't end up with a LIVE BABY, they will give us all the money back. They emphasized live baby because they wanted to be clear...if I have a miscarriage, they will continue to try. That seems an unbeatable plan. In my current clinic (in NYC), the plan is that for 25K, they will do 3 IVFs and 3 frozen transplants. No money back guarantee. If I wanted the money back guarantee, I have to pay an extra $5000-15,000 dollars. That why we're seriously considering going to Shady Grove. It's much less convenient but it may be worth it because of the savings!! Also, i have a friend who went there and she conceived on her first try! She now has a beautiful baby boy.


I'm so sad for a friend of mine. She and I are coworkers and she has been desperately trying to have a baby. In fact, she is the one who is currently getting IVF (Poor sperm analysis results). I just found out that she went in for a visit and she's not having luck with her follicles. Apparently, a previous test suggested that her ovarian reserves are low. It's so heartbreaking that she's been injecting herself with meds for a week and a half now with nothing to show. I hope that the 2 follicles she has continue to grow and they can be harvested. Gosh, ladies, the heartbreak that we have to deal with!!! I'm really scared about it now too because my friend is younger than me and I'm just a few months away from my 35th birthday. It's so frightening. I'm holding on to hope though-my FSH tests have been good thus far and I've been quite responsive to clomid so I think I probably still have good reserves. I'll see whether I respond to letrozole though...two more days and then I'm onto my estrogen and next week (Thursday) I'll get a sonogram and possibly, I'll get triggered for an IUI.


Here we go again!


Have a great weekend! And Gozal, once again, big hugs but keep your faith...maybe everything will turn around and your baby will be fine!




post #44 of 149


Gozal - Thanks so much for the warm welcome, especially right now. I love your signature (yay raw milk, boo for it being so hard to get in MD). I'm so so sorry your beta is bad. :( Is this your first pregnancy since DS?


I have an annual pap scheduled for next week, but after that I plan on making an appointment with an RE (assuming DH has similar results with his repeat test). 


This may sound weird, but I'm curious if anyone knows about going abroad for infertility treatment if you have to pay for it yourself. I work with 33% Indians and I *really* want to travel to India. Some google brought up a fertility clinic in Delhi and out of curiosity I looked at the charges http://www.delhi-ivf.com/charges.html. I don't' know how all the costs would add up to a total, but it looks like it would be a lot less than $25k! I thought that was interesting, given that I want to go there anyway. haha


renavoo - Thanks for the tip. Did you get male fertility vitamins? DH takes a daily (Centrum), but I think he does it inconsistently. I'll add a Vid D to his regimen. I agree, it wouldn't hurt. Thanks for the tip. Also, I live really close to Shady Grove, so thanks for mentioning by name. It looks like I don't have to do a lot of initial searching for an RE! That's a huge relief. Will you have to live down here for collection through implantation phase, or would you drive back and forth?



post #45 of 149
Thread Starter 

Welcome.gif RosieL!! I've added your blurb to the front page. Like others have said, I'm not glad that you HAVE to be here with us, but I am happy that we all get to be here for you, and I'm sure you'll get all the great advice and support you need.


Gozal I'm so sorry for your loss. We're all here for you grouphug.gif


Brichole You are an amazing woman! I like to think that I could handle a profession like that, but truth is I don't think I could. I am always amazed at how you balance being a wonderful employee and an even better mom. *highfive*! So glad you get a bit of a break this weekend and yay for having DD back!


Renavoo Good luck with your sonogram next week, can't wait to hear what happens. Fingers and toes crossed for you! Ps. the Shady Grove clinic sounds amazing!


AFM, I have a question. I know we've discussed it before, but I'm still confused. What do you consider spotting? Since I started charting (only 3 cycles now), I have noticed that I start "spotting" pretty much the day after O. By spotting I mean that the CM in my undies starts to take on color. Just after O it is just a little more yellow, then darker yellow, then goes to tan, then brown, then I really start spotting, and then AF.


I'm 3DPO today and my CM was yellow yesterday. Someone mentioned to get progesterone checked, and on my last bloodwork the OB said my progesterone was great at 7DPO. I asked her what could be causing the spotting problem - she said it is a symptom of endometriosis (at that time I still had the complex cyst and she was considering endo) or if not that, then there is a 'hormone' issue. I don't have endo, so now I'm concerned about what is causing this. I always feel like I am "out" right away because surely a little zygote can't attach to a uterus that is shedding it's lining! 

post #46 of 149

I too am not really sure what spotting is. I have noticed clear brown on tissue and after internal check midway through my LP in two cycles now. To be honest, I don't know if this always happens, because I don't think I would have noticed previously since I wasn't looking for it. :-/ I know that I count *red* blood that makes its way to my undies or tissue AF. There seems to be a clear enough pattern of that, and thusfar I've just called any other brown or pink "spotting."

post #47 of 149

Hi Rosie,

I'm glad I could help!! If you're interested, my friend went to Dr. Widra in the DC office. She and her friend had a lot of success with him and they love him. We have a initial consult set up with him if/when my IUI fails. haha i'm so optimistic about the IUI since I've had three of them already and all have failed with no indication of success. Our initial consult is a telephone consult. Then we will go down for necessary tests. Apparently, we can do follow ups in NYC until it's time for harvesting the egg and for the implantation. That should take about a week so our plan is the go down and stay there for the week. It's a lot of traveling but I think that generally, it is worth it for the cost savings and the peace of mind.


As for the multivitamin, I know there are male fertility vitamins available but my DH doesn't take those. He actually takes a standard drug store multivitamin (nature made) with a high D3 content. I started to get more conscious about D3 because my internist tested me and said that I had really low levels of vit D in my blood and I needed to increase intake. Do you know that the prenatal vitamins only have like 200IU? Well, she wanted me to take at least 1000IU. Once I started taking vit d, my cycles went from about 50 days to about 30 days. It was the oddest thing. I can't definitively say that it was the increased vitamin D intake that caused my periods to become more regular. (I also blame birth control pills for the irregular periods, without any clinical data backing me...but before birth control pills, my cycle was really regular) Also, there are clinical studies out there that say that infertile woman are more likely to be vit D deficient. After I started upping my doses of vit D, I decided DH would probably benefit too. haha It's an N of 1 but so far, the results seem positive. My last two unmedicated cycles have also been pretty darn regular. I ovulate around day 15-16 which is much better than the day 35-40 it used to be.


Tantylynn, considering the timing, do you think that maybe it could be ovulation bleeding? Perhaps the follicle bursting causes blood to be released? I know it happens to some women so maybe you're one of the "lucky" ones. It wasn't really clear what the timing is, whether the bleeding occurs right after ovulation or not. If so, I think you should consider the possibility that this is ovulation bleeding since in seems like the blood is not bright red, but rather, kind of brownish, correct?


post #48 of 149

Renavoo - What an interesting n-of-one story about vit D! I have historically been terrible about taking supplements, despite the urging of my nutritionist friend and husband. I never had a blood test, but basically everyone is D deficient and there's no worry of toxicity anyway, so now that I'm TTC I take 1000IU. That plus the rainbow 6-a-day and two capsules of krill oil for the DHA. Thanks for the reference to Dr. Widra. My primary concern is finding a doctor who is tolerant of, if now welcoming, of my own background research. I now know a lot about the current research in monstersperm (the translated technical term for abnormal morphology sperm), and I'll want to understand how anything the doc prescribes jives with that research. I know it's a tall order. Any chance you know whether Dr. Widra is an academic or researcher at heart?





post #49 of 149

Interesting that people are bringing up vitamin D. My RE said my level was a little low, but not to worry about it. Now I'm wondering if I should give it a try. I'm sure it can't hurt.


RosieL - I also really want an RE who can deal with me not being a mindless drone. The RE I went to really did not explain all of our options to us, didn't usually explain why he wanted to do what he wanted to do, and was fairly dismissive of our desire to try minimal interventions. I got a lot of father-knows-best from him... and when he bothered to quote statistics, it was about IVF, when all I was doing was ovulation induction! I cannot imagine how someone could have navigated that practice if they didn't go in already knowing a lot about reproductive medicine. I'm still upset he ordered a (very expensive) genetic test for cystic fibrosis without even telling me what it was for. He also tested me for blood type without telling me, so I was stuck paying for that even though I already know my blood type. GRRR, to say the least. My clinic is in Texas, so it doesn't sound like you will go there, but I'm happy to name names if anyone wants to PM me.

post #50 of 149

Gozal-How are you doing? I'm so sorry about all of this for you. Hoping things still might turn around.


Rosie-Welcome and may your stay be very short! :)


Monkeyscience-I just noticed in your siggie that you are in texas. I'm in east texas! Howdy neighbor!


Question:My temps have been all over the place since o'ing. Concerned? Yes. What can I do to help keep them up? I'm going to start topical progesterone tonight....any other suggestions? Also-is/could it be a sign of something?

post #51 of 149

*waves* Hi there, neighbor!!

post #52 of 149

Monkey - Ugh! Tests against your will without consent and then having to pay for it sounds pretty horrid. I'm uber-sensitive to cost and will be very up front to any doc I talk to that I have a cap, and they *must* be very conscious of that cap. I'd imagine that doctors aren't used to being conscious of keeping costs down, but fertility docs should be more conscious that most, since they provide services lots of people aren't covered for.


Speaking of coverage, I'm confused. I read somewhere that IVF must be covered in Maryland for a diagnosed infertility problem, and can be capped at $100,000. I'm in Maryland and my health plan says my max is $2,500 for all infertility treatment, including both tests and coverage. I'm sure there are loopholes to the law, but I'm curious how it works if anyone knows. 


renavoo - Is the cone flower in your garden? I intend to plant a big patch of them this year. Unfortunately I'm lacking on the pollinators for my vegetable crops. :-/


Does anyone think doc's perspective of temping this is a little off-putting? http://blog.shadygrovefertility.com/2011/05/18/basal-body-temperature/

post #53 of 149

Thank you so much for all the continued thoughts! I am now thoroughly confused. My temp hasn't fallen yet nor have I started bleeding. No cramping, really. My RE told me it would be "soon" on Wed. and to come in tomorrow (Mon.) so we could start monitoring for next cycle. I looked at a lot of m/c charts over on ff and it seems that for most women, bleeding is the  first sign, before temp drop, or else occurs on the day of temp drop. I did find one chart more like mine, that took 5 days after a negative blood test to start. I haven't taken an hpt since last Fri. (17dpo), when it was obviously positive but not a dark line. When I tested 18dpo with DS it was a blaring line. Does anyone know how many days "behind" urine is in terms of reflecting hormones? I really don't know what to think or hope for. I have been feeling more positive today, though, about the future in general.


Monkey, for vitamin D, since you're in Texas and it's summertime, I would simply make an effort to sit outside in the sun for ~15-30 minutes a day. Artificial vitamin D is pretty hard for the body to synthesize. It has to be taken with fat, like in whole milk, and even then it is poorly absorbed. But sit in the sun, which feels nice anyway, and you're all set! No sun block, of course.  As long as you're not sitting out between about 10 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon, I don't think you need to worry about sun damage to your skin. (I spent last summer in a super hot, intense sun place and managed not to use sun block at all. I know I'm kind of a weirdo with this, but I try to avoid sun block whenever possible.)


Zanelee, have you ever had a 7dpo progesterone level? I think that's the best way to tell if the temps reflect a progesterone problem. If it is, I think suppositories work a lot better than topical cream, though I would definitely go for it with the cream until you can get a script. I don't even get AF until 48 hours after I stop taking progesterone supps.


RosieL, we also currently live in a state that mandates infertility coverage, but it only applies to employers based in the state. Since DH's employer, through which we have our insurance, is not based in the state where we live, the law can't compel them to offer it. My RE's office asked me about it, and I think if his employer was based in the state, they would have helped us petition them for coverage. There is a person at my RE's office whose job is to work with the insurance companies (she's wonderful!) and I think that is part of her job. So if the employer providing your coverage is based in Maryland, I think all you have to do is petition them. If you call them, they will tell you the process for appeal, or ask your RE's office.


My RE also thinks charting is useless, as does my dad the research scientist. I disagree, obviously, since I do chart, but I also don't think they're wrong to be skeptical. My dad pointed out that if charting "works" for a woman - if you see a clear temp shift and the chart reflects your experiences, such as when you get your period - then it's probably reasonably accurate. However, if the chart is unclear, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's a problem - some women's bbts are just never accurate. I've read that Sweden study where they compared time to pregnancy in a large number of fertile couples, those BDing 3 times a week vs. those charting, and time to pregnancy was actually slightly lower in the 3x/week group. I do it because it gives me something to do, because I like having the data and observing my body. I've also taken my temp the same morning immediately when I wake up and then after I've gotten up to use the bathroom and gotten back into bed, just to compare. My temps were virtually the same. I think it takes my bbt some time to rise (I have naturally very low blood pressure) and that makes it easier to accurately record. I have to take it internally, though, or it's useless. All of that is to say, I wouldn't dismiss an RE for that attitude. I'd prefer that my RE be less dismissive of charting, sure, but otherwise, I love her. As Monkey said, I think the important thing is that a doctor treats you like an intelligent person.


Have I said already how grateful I am to to have you guys here as I sit here and wait to figure out what is going on?!

post #54 of 149
Originally Posted by tantylynn View Post


Brichole You are an amazing woman! I like to think that I could handle a profession like that, but truth is I don't think I could. I am always amazed at how you balance being a wonderful employee and an even better mom. *highfive*! So glad you get a bit of a break this weekend and yay for having DD back!



AFM, I have a question. I know we've discussed it before, but I'm still confused. What do you consider spotting? Since I started charting (only 3 cycles now), I have noticed that I start "spotting" pretty much the day after O. By spotting I mean that the CM in my undies starts to take on color. Just after O it is just a little more yellow, then darker yellow, then goes to tan, then brown, then I really start spotting, and then AF.


I'm 3DPO today and my CM was yellow yesterday. Someone mentioned to get progesterone checked, and on my last bloodwork the OB said my progesterone was great at 7DPO. I asked her what could be causing the spotting problem - she said it is a symptom of endometriosis (at that time I still had the complex cyst and she was considering endo) or if not that, then there is a 'hormone' issue. I don't have endo, so now I'm concerned about what is causing this. I always feel like I am "out" right away because surely a little zygote can't attach to a uterus that is shedding it's lining! 


Thank you sweetie!! I do what i can to try to make things work for my family!  My DD is home and had a WONDERFUL time while she was in Disney World LOL.  She brought home a whole store with her i think! 


As for your spotting...i think it's a hornonal thing personally.  Though i had some form of spotting with BOTH of my DDs when i got pregnant with them.  The first one i had what i thought was a 3 day "PERIOD" but in reality it was my implantation that was causing it.  With my 2nd DD i spotted for like a week straight and honestly thought i was going to lose her...but we kept an eye on it with u/s (i had like 3 within a week 1/2 time!!)    I just don't want you to feel like you are out everytime that you have spotting!!!



post #55 of 149

RosieL - Yeah, I do find that blog post a bit off-putting. I don't thinking charting is a fertility miracle, for sure, but it can definitely provide information that is useful. If people are looking for the mythical "pre-O dip", then yes, I would say, charting is useless. Toni Weschler would say the same thing. If you're trying to establish whether or not you ovulate, or how frequently you do, it can be invaluable. That's one of the reasons I've even bothered to SEE a fertility doctor - because charting has shown me that I have not ovulated (minus my medicated cycle) the entire time I've been married, or in the two months previous to my marriage, and has given me evidence that I've ovulated only 2 or 3 times in the past 3 years. One reason I'm ditching my RE is because he completely ignored/didn't believe me when I told him I KNEW I hadn't ovulated in over a year. He went by bleeding episodes, even though I knew they were anovulatory. (I've seen my temp chart when I did ovulate, and seen how I respond to progesterone, so I know my temps would show ovulation.) Also, his parody of the conditions necessary to get an accurate chart are ridiculous. True, some women are extremely sensitive and have small temperature shifts that are difficult to detect without very accurate readings. But a lot of us (myself included) can still see clear patterns even with some temps that are not totally accurate. I guess, overall, I feel like he is reacting to his incorrect perception of the method and use of temp charting, instead of to the reality of it. I completely agree that the day 3 blood tests give valuable information. I just don't see that they give the SAME information as charting. I guess I would rather see a doctor who can understand how the bloodwork and the charting can complement each other. That being said, I wouldn't say that would completely deter me from using that doctor. At least he's heard of temperature charting, and might potentially understand if you show him a chart indicating anovulation or short luteal phase or something like that.

post #56 of 149


Okay, both responses about the temperature blog post have caused me to have a less severe view. I felt that post was so arrogantly negative towards a useful tool, but taking temps as a fertility *test* maybe not so great. And you're right monkeyscience, it was a parody, so probably should be taken as such. Charting told me something I didn't know, that I am very likely to be ovulating (given my CM, OPKs, CP, regularity and temps), so I thought it was really useful!


gozal - I'd never heard that vit D needs to be taken with fat, and that it's poorly absorbed. That's interesting! Do you know where I would be able to look up more about it? I admit that I take it mostly at the insistence of a friend who does a lot of supplement research, because I don't have the interest to research that specifically on my own (aside from looking through the national academies publication on maximum intake guidelines, which came out last year I think). I'm also curious, what area is your PhD in? Do your fellow doc students and/or profs know anything about your TTC process? Did the doc say you were 100% going to miscarry? Uncertainty and waiting is the worst kind of stress…


I'm at CD 20 right now, wondering when my +OPK with show up. I've seen a +OPK at CD19, 19, and 17 so far. Hmm. 

post #57 of 149

gozal-praying for you and this little one!!!!
Yes, I had a 7 day progesterone. It was done last November and was 15.5ng/ml (that lab's norms are 1.1-21 for luteal phase)


I also just noticed (you'd think I'd be paying closer attention) that my luteal phase is shortening. :( I started back on vitex today (I went off b/c I'd been on it for over 6 years...) to try and help that. Any other suggestions?


post #58 of 149

zanelee I can be of no help on the LP length question, but I have to say I am highly amused by your avatar pic. Heheee.

post #59 of 149

Hi Ladies, happy Monday. Sigh, why aren't weekends longer?


RosieL, that is a coneflower but it is a photo I took in a local park. :o) I have a black thumb so even if I had a garden, I wouldn't be able to grow anything anyway!


Gozal, I'm still holding out hope. Maybe the blood test was wrong? It has been known to happen, hasn't it? I am hoping that your tests come out good this week.


That was an interesting blog about temping. I also think that there is a benefit to temping. I see clear shifts even though I'm one of those people who has insomnia and I rarely get 3-4 hours of uninterrupted sleep. Even if my temperatures aren't "exact", I know around where they should be, before and after ovulation. However, I'll admit that during the medicated cycles, I don't temp. I prefer to just let the ultrasounds guide the process. By the way, I've gotten the day three blood test and every other fertility test and no one can tell me what's wrong. Therefore, this doctor's supposition that there are more accurate ways to determine fertility annoys me. I've passed all their tests, as has my husband, and I still can't get pregnant. Therefore, temping and all of these "advancements" are on equal footing for me...


I didn't realize that you needed to take vit D with fat. It makes sense since it's fat soluble but I didn't make the connection! I wish that I was able to be out in the sun for long enough to have vit D made naturally. Generally, I'm at work and I don't usually even get to go out for a lunch break. That's why I have to take supplementation. I also drink a heck of a lot of milk (I did that before my fertility issues- I just love milk) so I never thought I would be vitamin D deficient. It was a shock when my physician told me I was!


By the way, my RE at the time made me get every blood test under the sun. They took 17 vials of my blood. I assume she also took my vitamin D levels. And she NEVER told me that I had deficient vitamin D levels. I had to go see my internist and I mentioned the troubles I was having and she took more blood and diagnosed me as vit D deficient. Honestly, I was really upset at my RE. I mean, shouldn't she have been looking out for that as well, especially considering the evidence out there that vit D deficiency is seen in women who have trouble conceiving?! Whenever I think of the time I wasted at her office, I get upset. Sigh. Oh well, back to breathing!





post #60 of 149

I went in for another beta this morning, so now I have to try to get some work done while waiting for the result - ha!


Hmmm, I'm not sure where I learned about vitamin D and fat solubility. Probably my dad (a professor at a med school), which is not really helpful, I know. It is amazing how much bad science is out there, even in peer-reviewed publications, so I usually run everything I'm wondering about by my dad, who I obviously trust. Renavoo, that is totally not okay, that your former RE didn't address your D levels. Ugh!


RosieL, my PhD is in the humanities - history. (That's the very short version!) Very practical, I know.


Zanelee, 15.5 is great! I wonder if something else could be affecting your lp? I wish I had an answer about lengthening lp.


Edited because I mentioned my child - I realized that might be insensitive. I'm sorry.

Edited by gozal - 6/13/11 at 9:38am
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