not so sure

[Fillyjonk]

hmm interesting thread

I am going to go against the grain and say that, actually, developing good social skills can be a big problem for homeschooled kids. This isn't actually related to being homeschooled per se, its to do with parenting, but the problem with being homeschooled is that they then don't get always feedback from others about their behaviour. 

I'm thinking of very...um...proactive parents who believe very firmly that their kid shouldn't have to share (other kids of course have to share), that rudeness to others or even physical violence is a legitimate expression of self which should not be curbed, and generally that the world and its kids should wrap around their child. I do think this kind of parent shows up in greater numbers in homeschooling circles, and whereas in school these kids would be aware that many people had needs and that they could interact with an adult without their parent translating every word into acceptable language (yes, I know someone who does this for her 8 year old), homeschooled kids potentially have no balance.

So I don't think there is anything problematic about homeschooling per se, except that if you have a kid with anti-social parents it can fail to provide balance, and that statistically, I think more HEing parents are a bit antisocial.

My kids have a great social life, they see other kids pretty much every day of the week, and these are mainly kids they know well. We've worked hard and made certain decisions (eg living in a town) to enable this. I'm not sure I'd say any of mine had great social skills though, my son is much better with adults than kids his own age, which I think is common. My daughter is just very shy. What disconcerts me slightly is that neither dp nor I were like this at this age, asaik we were both normally sociable. If you had to spot the HE'd kid in a crowd you'd definitely choose them. I know a LOT of HE'd kids and I think mostly you'd easily pick them out in a crowd socially. I also know HE'd kids who've grown up and I think, again, you'd pick them out of a crowd as being socially...intense, iykwim. It doesn't prevent me from HEing my own kids, but it does make me very aware that we're working with something with quite a potential impact.

[SweetSilver]

It is a very difficult to say for sure what the norm should be, isn't it?  Should the norm be the experience of socialization as experienced in school (good or bad, I've heard and known both)? or should the norm be closer to the socialization experience of homeschooled children?

     What is healthiest?  Most natural?  Simply saying that since most children have a particular experience (school) that this is the proper thing all children to experience?  Perhaps HE'd children seem weird (if indeed they are--I am not making an argument one way or the other) simply because they approach relationships differently, not the way schooled children approach them out of necessity?

     (I once spent an entire month deep in the Nevada mountains at a Rainbow Gathering.  When I returned to civilization, or "Babylon", I was amazed at the fear I saw in everybody's expressions. So different!  I am sure I seemed as odd to them as they to me!  And no one said "hello" or smiled, even though I had what I thought was a amiable expression on my face.)

     I would definitely believe that people who had positive experiences in school, (and I know many), might be more likely to champion the good parts of school, and those with less than satisfactory experience are more likely to choose otherwise.  Then there are others, like me, whose experience with school was neither here nor there.  

    In the end, a child will look back and decide for himself.  It would not be a fatal criticism of homeschooling if they thought that any part was lacking, just as most people critical of school still send their kids to school.  

     I would hope that people's decision to homeschool their children would be well-rounded, considering the positive aspects instead of simply turning away from what was for them a negative experience.  

By the way, and I am not intending to hijack your thread, I happened to be the one in the "socialization" thread who mentioned the sharing issue when my DD was a toddler.  I'm not sure if your comment referred to mine, but if it did I feel you misunderstood me a bit, in part because I didn't elaborate on the situation, nor my feelings and reasoning behind it.  Happy to start a new thread if any one is curious.

[heatherdeg]

I don't know.  The type of parents the OP is describing seem (in my area) to be way more prevalent among non-HEers.  I always kind of chalked it up to them not really spending enough time with their kids and therefore feeling that their kids shouldn't have to compromise EVER (the sharing point) and not really "getting" their kids intelligence level accurately (the translation point).  I've homeschooled in two states and I guess I just never fell into a HEing crowd where that kind of behavior (on behalf of the parents) was the norm (in fact, I haven't run into it among HEers yet).

On the flip side, I was public schooled in 7 different districts of varying socio-economic levels and I taught in public school; and truly can't identify with the two "pros" you're talking about.  I'm not sure how they inherently "get" that many people have needs vs. understanding they need to take orders, and I've seen well enough of the adult interaction to know that most of it is not what I want my kid having in terms of interacting with an adult.  That being said, 1) I'm not one of the parent's you're describing; and 2) my HE'd kid is involved in co-op classes, enrichment classes, athletic lessons and camps--so he gets PLENTY of non-parental adult interaction where if I am present at all, it's as an onlooker and even then--sometimes only visually (out of earshot).  Most of the HEing parents I know in my little area of IL have their kids involved in similar ways (maybe not to the extent that we do).  Back home in NJ, there are fewer opportunities, but the parents HEing there take them.  I just haven't run into the kind of sheltering/shielding you describe.

[Queen Gwen]

Really?  I thought you were going to say you could spot the HEd kids because they tended to dress like they're on the set of Leave it to Beaver.  Because in our neck of the woods you'd be spot on with that observation.

I've met one family around here that tends to be like you're describing -- the kids don't seem to get that they're part of a larger society that observes certain norms.  When they're old enough to drive I wonder if they'll think driving on the right side of the road is too constrictive.  But they're the exception.

I do meet a lot of kids who are quirky in that way that seems to invite bullying, and I think to myself, "aha, I wonder if that influenced the parents' decision towards homeschool."  But, hey, those kids are going to be quirky regardless; my theory is that a certain segment of the population is self-selecting towards Quirky HEd Kid.  And I meet kids in schools, both public and private, that have the same issues of marching to the beat of that other drum.  BUT, around here, those quirky HEd kids?  You can tell them to stop being disruptive, and as much as it's in their power to do so, they will.  I helped with a co-op middle school science class last year, and I could tell boys bigger than me (which is most of them) to settle down and they instantly would.  Which I thought was sort of weird, frankly, because I'm pretty sure in a public school I'd've had a totally different experience.  

All of which is to say, I think it depends on the attitude of the community at large.  The local homeschool community seems to put up with quirks, but not with disrespect towards other adults and children.  Drawing a conclusion about HEd kids in general, then, becomes difficult since different regions will vary.

[Lisa1970]

You are so wrong. I see public school parents who are generally completely uninvolved with their children. They seem proud if their child is a bully. From what I can see, public school kids have a harder time getting along with general people than home schoolers. Stick a public schooler in with someone who is the slightest bit different from them, and they suddenly cannot handle it. In fact, stick them in with someone who is not in their clique and they cannot function socially. They generally have much lower self esteem because they cannot see themselves as anything but the label they were given their first day of school.

Public school has not taught social skills in 50 yrs. So if the kids are at school all day long, and only see their parents for a few hours a week, who is going to teach those kids manners and social skills? Seriously, your post is way off base.

[Lisa1970]

I can usually spot a non-public schooler in a crowd because they do not have the one and only approved hair style that teens wear today. They are also capable of speaking and communicating with someone who they are not already comfy with and best friends with. And they don't have the constant scowly look on their face. Basically...here is how to identify a teen girl who is not in public school. She does not have the hair cut that is long with the long bangs brushed to the side. She is not staring at her cell phone, texting and never looking up. She will also speak to people she is with, such as her parents, and she is capable of making eye contact with other people. If any or all of these signs are present, chances are, she is not in public school. Am I bothered that my daughter is so different that she does not have the "public school hairstyle" and is not incapable of making eye contact? Not at all! I am happy about it!

Oh yeah, let's not forget the part where her boobs and butt are not hanging out of her clothes.

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by Lisa1970 

I see public school parents who are generally completely uninvolved with their children. They seem proud if their child is a bully. From what I can see, public school kids have a harder time getting along with general people than home schoolers. Stick a public schooler in with someone who is the slightest bit different from them, and they suddenly cannot handle it. In fact, stick them in with someone who is not in their clique and they cannot function socially. They generally have much lower self esteem because they cannot see themselves as anything but the label they were given their first day of school.

Public school has not taught social skills in 50 yrs. So if the kids are at school all day long, and only see their parents for a few hours a week, who is going to teach those kids manners and social skills? Seriously, your post is way off base.

Again, I'm not seeing the same severity as you, but totally agree in general.  Where I am, most of the parents attempt to be involved with their children, but they also have the kids heavily involved in other things--leaving them little room to actually connect with their kids.  So they're "involved" via being a taxi driver and/or an observer of games, recitals, practices, etc.  When I see a kid in dire need of connecting, I often suggest a "date night" with the child and the response is "Who has the time?".    But then these are families that don't even sit down to eat a meal together many nights of the week.  They're doing productive, healthy activities; but not building bonds with their families.  

While the parents of the bullies we have to deal with aren't exactly PROUD, two of the three we have dealt with this last year have fathers who think that it's "no big deal" and the bullied child (my son, who can run girly sometimes) just needs to "learn how to be a boy".  Of course, this gets them off the hook for actually figuring out how to solve the problem (thankfully, of these two kids, one's mother totally handled it and things are good).

I definitely see where kids who are faced with another child they know who is not in their clique having SERIOUS problems coping.  Again, not ALL, but definitely most.  And when faced with someone knew that they don't already know, they often jump into defensive mode and squirm when with someone new--regardless of what that new person is like; and that can turn to snippy-ness if the person winds up being unlike them.  If that person isn't their age, they may not bother being social at all.  

They identify as a group vs. an individual.  They often define themselves that way.  That being said, I have seen people of specific religions do the same thing with people not of the same religion (and I have no clue how those people's kids are schooled).

Oh, and somewhere in my Education studies, I came across a statement that by 3rd grade, kids knew where they were in the pecking order in school.

[mom2ponygirl]

Originally Posted by Fillyjonk 

So I don't think there is anything problematic about homeschooling per se, except that if you have a kid with anti-social parents it can fail to provide balance, and that statistically, I think more HEing parents are a bit antisocial.

I'm not sure this is true.  I think it is a lot easier to be anti-social when your child is in school.  It is much easier to tell yourself that they are around kids all day and you don't have to make any more effort.  There are parents with kids in school and who homeschool that make a significant effort to help their kids develop great social connections.  I think in general you will find a larger percentage of those parents in the homeschool community because they don't have the school to fall back on.  I know that homeschooling has stretched my introverted comfort zone - and in general that has been a good thing for all of us. 

[Fillyjonk]

I am lololing at the leave it to beaver HS dress code, so very true ;-) . That and stripes. I looked around me one day recently at a HS meeting and realised that every single person, child and adult, was wearing at least one striped item of clothing (including me and my kids, btw).

I do think that stastistically more HSing parents are quite introverted and had a bad time at school themselves, partly for this reason. I am NOT saying that this is true of everyone, and I totally think that a LOT of HSing parents stretch their own introverted comfort zones for their kids. I've seen this, I think hats off to these parents. However I'd say, around a third of parents I know who HS go to few or no meetings, and see very few people outside their own families (meaning their kids also see very few people). These are just people I actually have, at some point, met, usually because they have tried meetings or meeting up socially and decided that its not for them. I think there are actually a lot of families HSing who are "under the radar" and whose kids have very little contact with any other child or adult, and I do think that this CAN be problematic if it is combined with poor social skills or general paranoia on the part of the parents. (I promise i am speaking from experience here, I've HS'd for around 7 years and I've known HSers my whole life). I think it can be fine to see few other people if you are yourself providing a good example to your child of good social behaviour, but if have, say, serious depression, or actually keep your family in the house during school hours and then limit their contact with others on top of that, I think that's a bit different.

Oh re the bullies. We have bullying in our HE groups. We have kids whose parents are proud that they use violence to get their own way and who actively encourage this. I've heard the whole "x needs to learn to be a boy/toughen up" attitude from HEing dads (and mums). I've heard HSing parents be really properly proud when their child has hurt another because they are not a sissy. I do think it takes it to another level for a child to be hurt while the perpetrator's mum is there saying "good job".

Sounds like some of the posters have had horrible times with public school educated kids. I'm so sorry to hear this. I've had pretty mixed experiences with public school kids, however I wouldn't say that they are any different on average to HS'd kids. I'd also certainly not say that most of the public school parents I know are less involved with their kids-it totally depends on the parent. Some HSing parents are pretty shoddy, tbh, and do very little with their kids (I don't mean they unschool, I mean they actively don't desperately seem to want them around).

[Fillyjonk]

oh and "Stick a public schooler in with someone who is the slightest bit different from them, and they suddenly cannot handle it. In fact, stick them in with someone who is not in their clique and they cannot function socially.". Honestly, I think the same is true of many HS'd kids. We have cliques in our HS groups. It is a total pita for any new kid to break into them, tbh. I've seen this. It can be really bad, I think, because often whole families will know each other really well, in some cases the kids have known each other literally since birth, and its very hard then for a newcomer to break in. 

I really don't think we have unusually bad groups, btw, I've seen groups in different locations and spoken to people who have been to different groups and I'd say the ones local to me are typical.

[AAK]

I have met some hs kids like you are describing.  But not many.  Perhaps though, that is because they are homeschooling as a "protective measure" and therefore would be less likely to be at the same place that I am anyways.  In our area that includes most of the "religious intense" (my own word, because I've seen it with many different religious groups--not just one).  

On the flip side, I don't think ps are what you describe either.  Our schools (here) tend to develop a very ego-centric child.  One who "looks out for #1".  Not to say that they don't realize others are there.  I think instead everything in life is treated like politics.  I had a mother say to me once (after I pulled my oldest out of ps).  "Oh, that would be ok for you/Anna because Anna already has basic social skills.  But, I assume you will re-enroll her for middle school."  I asked why I would do that and she replied.  "Kids who miss out on middle school don't know how to 'play the game'.  Whether they were homeschooled or went to a k-8 school, they aren't ready for high school because they are too naive."  I (personally) hated middle school and would rather be a bit naive than go through that again.  My dd has recently asked to continue to hs for middle school and we have agreed.  But, that mom (and her dd) were extreme on the "snotty/self righteous" attitude.  Her dd "played the game" well in 3rd grade.  I would be scared to run across her in middles school.

Amy

[SweetSilver]

I think some of us homeschooling parents see that their kids might have a hard time fitting into school "pegs" and choose not go that route.  I mean, that is not my primary reason to homeschool.  We are unschoolers because I don't think "learning by the bell" is a good way to learn, ESPECIALLY for young children.  The bell initiates activities that might not be as effective because the kid isn't interested, or the bell rings and something engrossing must be put down for something else.

     But I also see that it would be something of a struggle to put my kids into this situation, a situation born of a necessity to keep a large group of students on the same track and timing.  Our girls are both ahead in some areas, and a little behind in others, and at school, this would be judged and graded, at home it just is.... nothing.

     I see, especially my DD6 who loves nearly everybody, but struggles with kids her own age.  I could make her go to school to tough it out and learn to be "socialized".  But I have no desire to pound her into that shape (we were planning to homeschool since forever; DH was bored in school and was more than ready to be on board.  All this was decided before we saw her personality.)  

     I went to school, did well, had good experiences and bad.  I might even be pegged as "anti-social" or "weird" by some people.  But I think, for the most part, that these were the same people who I chose not to listen to anymore.  That was a painful process for a kid to bear.  And I don't have any illusions that it can be avoided by homeschooling.  

     But again, I am not looking to homeschooling to answer that problem.  We go the way we go because we are enraptured by what we see.  We learn what inspires us.  And in the end if I seem a little different then, so what?  I am a respectful person.  I teach my children to value what they see around them, to not wantonly destroy or mistreat or abuse, not to steal or hurt.  Looking and acting in a way that might look weird to PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW US FROM ADAM is not even on my radar as a priority.

[Fillyjonk]

oh I have just realised what I have done. Instead of answering the thread about socialisation, I started a new thread by accident! Sorry about that. Not sure what I did there, oops...

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

I think some of us homeschooling parents see that their kids might have a hard time fitting into school "pegs" and choose not go that route.  I mean, that is not my primary reason to homeschool.  We are unschoolers because I don't think "learning by the bell" is a good way to learn, ESPECIALLY for young children.  The bell initiates activities that might not be as effective because the kid isn't interested, or the bell rings and something engrossing must be put down for something else.

     But I also see that it would be something of a struggle to put my kids into this situation, a situation born of a necessity to keep a large group of students on the same track and timing.  Our girls are both ahead in some areas, and a little behind in others, and at school, this would be judged and graded, at home it just is.... nothing.

     I see, especially my DD6 who loves nearly everybody, but struggles with kids her own age.  I could make her go to school to tough it out and learn to be "socialized".  But I have no desire to pound her into that shape 

<snipped>

     I went to school, did well, had good experiences and bad.  I might even be pegged as "anti-social" or "weird" by some people.  But I think, for the most part, that these were the same people who I chose not to listen to anymore.  That was a painful process for a kid to bear.  And I don't have any illusions that it can be avoided by homeschooling.  

     But again, I am not looking to homeschooling to answer that problem.  We go the way we go because we are enraptured by what we see.  We learn what inspires us.  And in the end if I seem a little different then, so what?  I am a respectful person.  I teach my children to value what they see around them, to not wantonly destroy or mistreat or abuse, not to steal or hurt.  Looking and acting in a way that might look weird to PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW US FROM ADAM is not even on my radar as a priority.

  to all of it.

I'm also realizing that Fillyjonk--are you in the U.S.?  Because here, culturally, it's obviously going to be different.  I have honestly never run into that kind of bullying among HEers.  Granted, it's only been 4 years--but it's also run across two states.  In fact, I have yet to run into a parent that is downright proud of their child being violent in any forum.  I have definitely seen parents who think that bullying (on a less violent level) as being a necessary rite of passage for the kids and proud that their kids can "stand up for themselves" if they're the antagonist; but the worst of it physically that I've seen first-hand so far has been throwing sand in the face or holding a kid down (not beating them up, just confining them and holding them "hostage").  And with the latter, the parents were less "proud" and more "it's no big deal".

And I'm not sure you read my post about how the parents are "involved".  The ps parents are "involved" but in ways that don't allow them to actually connect with their children.  So they're by no means "engaged" and that is what makes all the difference, IMO.

I'd also contend that just because you are not seeing some of these HE parents at the meetings you attend may not mean they are in isolation.  Even if you are at the gatherings of every homeschool group in your area, there are still plenty of other social opportunities via church organizations, enrichment activities, library offerings, heck--even family functions.

And the "clique" thing is infinitely less prevalent among HEers than psers by all means.  I have totally seen kids be cliquey in HE groups, but it is far less common (although it can be equally nasty) in the HE groups, IME.

[Fillyjonk]

Originally Posted by heatherdeg 

  to all of it.

I'm also realizing that Fillyjonk--are you in the U.S.?  

Well not I am not but I'm not sure how much difference that would make. I suppose maybe our public schools are better, maybe, so the comparison isn't so stark. To be completely honest, I think if I said all this on a UK based board I'd have the same reaction. I do feel strongly that there is a reluctance to talk about the downside of HSing outwith our direct community-and this is understandable-but if a prospective HSer is asking about this stuff (and honestly, I thought I was replying to a thread where this was the case, not starting my own)-then I'm inclined to be very honest with my own experience. 

Because here, culturally, it's obviously going to be different.  I have honestly never run into that kind of bullying among HEers.  Granted, it's only been 4 years--but it's also run across two states.  In fact, I have yet to run into a parent that is downright proud of their child being violent in any forum.  I have definitely seen parents who think that bullying (on a less violent level) as being a necessary rite of passage for the kids and proud that their kids can "stand up for themselves" if they're the antagonist; but the worst of it physically that I've seen first-hand so far has been throwing sand in the face or holding a kid down (not beating them up, just confining them and holding them "hostage").  And with the latter, the parents were less "proud" and more "it's no big deal".

See, depending on the age of the kids, I'd consider holding a child down or throwing sand to be borderline violence. Obviously not if the kids were 3, but if they were 6 or 7, then thats unacceptable to me. I also think that "its no big deal" is not an ok reaction to this, and isnt an improvement on school, certainly not the schools I've known.

And I'm not sure you read my post about how the parents are "involved".  The ps parents are "involved" but in ways that don't allow them to actually connect with their children.  So they're by no means "engaged" and that is what makes all the difference, IMO.

I did read it, I disagree, I think a ps parent can be very involved with their kids school life in myriad ways, they dont have to be physically present all the time to help them become social. There are other behind the scenes ways that can also be effective.

I'd also contend that just because you are not seeing some of these HE parents at the meetings you attend may not mean they are in isolation.  

No of course not. I know these parents or know of these parents and know they are isolated. I also know of many more parents who dont attend anything social but do other stuff, or who manage fine without-they have the family functions, church gatherings or what have you. Thats a very different matter. Not everyone benefits from meetings, but I think if you are pretty much keeping your (only) child away from almost everyone else, that is not likely to be a good thing, and that certainly is going on, in the UK if not in the US.

And the "clique" thing is infinitely less prevalent among HEers than psers by all means.  I have totally seen kids be cliquey in HE groups, but it is far less common (although it can be equally nasty) in the HE groups,

Yeah, probably. I do think it can be quite an issue in HS groups because often we are the last port of call after a child has had a bad time in school-to them hit the local HS group and find yourself equally shunned because you havent been going since age 3 is probably pretty horrible. (my kids have been going since age 3 but Im aware of this as something that affects others)

[MommaBirdie]

Originally Posted by Fillyjonk 

hmm interesting thread

I am going to go against the grain and say that, actually, developing good social skills can be a big problem for homeschooled kids. This isn't actually related to being homeschooled per se, its to do with parenting, but the problem with being homeschooled is that they then don't get always feedback from others about their behaviour. 

I'm thinking of very...um...proactive parents who believe very firmly that their kid shouldn't have to share (other kids of course have to share), that rudeness to others or even physical violence is a legitimate expression of self which should not be curbed, and generally that the world and its kids should wrap around their child. I do think this kind of parent shows up in greater numbers in homeschooling circles, and whereas in school these kids would be aware that many people had needs and that they could interact with an adult without their parent translating every word into acceptable language (yes, I know someone who does this for her 8 year old), homeschooled kids potentially have no balance.

So I don't think there is anything problematic about homeschooling per se, except that if you have a kid with anti-social parents it can fail to provide balance, and that statistically, I think more HEing parents are a bit antisocial.

My kids have a great social life, they see other kids pretty much every day of the week, and these are mainly kids they know well. We've worked hard and made certain decisions (eg living in a town) to enable this. I'm not sure I'd say any of mine had great social skills though, my son is much better with adults than kids his own age, which I think is common. My daughter is just very shy. What disconcerts me slightly is that neither dp nor I were like this at this age, asaik we were both normally sociable. If you had to spot the HE'd kid in a crowd you'd definitely choose them. I know a LOT of HE'd kids and I think mostly you'd easily pick them out in a crowd socially. I also know HE'd kids who've grown up and I think, again, you'd pick them out of a crowd as being socially...intense, iykwim. It doesn't prevent me from HEing my own kids, but it does make me very aware that we're working with something with quite a potential impact.

I think you are incorrect in your stereotyping.
Statistically most home schooled children are from very religious right families, which don't meet the rest of your stereotype based on the stereotype of the religious right.

But stereotypes are rarely a good accurate way to judge something...and neither is anecdotal evidence.
 

[mom2ponygirl]

Originally Posted by Fillyjonk 
I do think that stastistically more HSing parents are quite introverted and had a bad time at school themselves, partly for this reason. I am NOT saying that this is true of everyone, and I totally think that a LOT of HSing parents stretch their own introverted comfort zones for their kids. I've seen this, I think hats off to these parents. However I'd say, around a third of parents I know who HS go to few or no meetings, and see very few people outside their own families (meaning their kids also see very few people). These are just people I actually have, at some point, met, usually because they have tried meetings or meeting up socially and decided that its not for them. I think there are actually a lot of families HSing who are "under the radar" and whose kids have very little contact with any other child or adult, and I do think that this CAN be problematic if it is combined with poor social skills or general paranoia on the part of the parents. (I promise i am speaking from experience here, I've HS'd for around 7 years and I've known HSers my whole life). I think it can be fine to see few other people if you are yourself providing a good example to your child of good social behaviour, but if have, say, serious depression, or actually keep your family in the house during school hours and then limit their contact with others on top of that, I think that's a bit different.

While I do consider myself introverted, and that homeschooling stretches my introverted comfort zone, I didn't have a bad time in school because of it.  I had plenty of friends and no bullying experiences.  It was just mind numbingly boring, and painful to watch other kids being socially tortured and feeling powerless to do much about it. 

I'm glad we ended up homeschooling because it did force me not to fall into a complacent social rut, but I don't think being introverted and having a bad social experience necessarily go hand in hand.  I also wouldn't agree that more HS'ing parents are introverted.  Our area is full of extroverts - quite frankly sometimes they wear me out despite how much I enjoy their company. LOL

I think you should also consider that some of the families you have met that tried homeschool meetings and then didn't come back, just found other social outlets.  Many times my daughter's extracurricular activities, my work, and her friends who go to school, take up so much of our time that we don't make homeschool group activities that often.   While I know that there are some families out there who may be ultra paranoid and hiding from the world, I do think you have grossly overestimated their numbers.  Even the religious fundamentalists tend to be deeply involved with their church groups and that social structure even if they are secluding themselves from the wider world. One thing I have learned is not to assume that people are sitting at home just because they aren't running in my circle.

As for the bullying - I have seen a little in our homeschool community.  However, my daughter's best friends attend school and from their stories and the stories their moms tell, it isn't a fraction of what these girls experience in school.  I used to think that the homeschool groups had more mom drama, but after hearing some of the school moms talk, I'm not so sure about that either. LOL  I think in either group you will find some families that feed on drama and some that avoid it like the plague.  You will find a few bullies and socially less than competent individuals.  I just don't see that the percentages are skewed in the way you have experienced.  Perhaps it is different in your area for some reason.   
 

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by Fillyjonk 

oh I have just realised what I have done. Instead of answering the thread about socialisation, I started a new thread by accident! Sorry about that. Not sure what I did there, oops...

          Actually, it's nice because we've been able to get a little bit off the topic of the original "socialization" post.  That post asked specific questions, and this post has been more general.  A little breathing room, if you will.  So, your mistake (?) was actually welcome.

Oh-- this always peeves me whenever I hear it--there is "antisocial" and there is "antisocial".

     If you want a secluded cabin deep in the woods, whether you've turned your back on society or it just sounds brilliant, maybe you're antisocial, but hey! if there is happiness there then it is worth it.  To each his own.  Her own.  Whatever.

     If you start sending out letter bombs from that cabin, well, that's the other "antisocial".

     Maybe these kids in homeschooling groups that aren't quite making it in the friend arena would have become little budding Unibombers or scheming Columbiners if sent to public school.  Homeschooling might not be the cause for the introversion.

     We have to remember cause-and-effect.  My dad once criticized homeschooling because an adult he knew who had been homeschooled wasn't a great thinker.  I pointed out that to condemn homeschooling for one problem in one person would be like condemning Yale because of George W.

Edited by SweetSilver - 6/5/11 at 5:58pm

[Fillyjonk]

"Statistically most home schooled children are from very religious right families, which don't meet the rest of your stereotype based on the stereotype of the religious right."

Ah,now this IS a cultural thing. That's very US specific. I'd say most European HErs are moderate or left wing politically, while quite a few are religious only around a quarter would be actually HSing primarily for that reason. The majority of HSers IME are either autonomous/unschoolers or loosely structured. Following a strict curriculum is not unknown at all but I'd say no more than a quarter of families round here do it.

"I think you should also consider that some of the families you have met that tried homeschool meetings and then didn't come back, just found other social outlets.  Many times my daughter's extracurricular activities, my work, and her friends who go to school, take up so much of our time that we don't make homeschool group activities that often"

This one is a dead end, I'm afraid. As I said above, yes I do know that these families have isolated themselves not just from the HE community but from the world in general. I know this for a fact because although they have chosen not to meet with anyone face to face they are still in email contact. I don't think this is a UK specific thing.

What might possibly be UK specific is that because we have a majority of autonomous/semi autonomous families, this possibly feeds into our groups and means that sometimes, no one is willing to take overall charge and say that this behaviour is unacceptable.

As I said above, I don't see any problem whatsohever with choosing not to participate in the HS community. I don't even have a problem with choosing to be relatively isolated, but I think total isolation is risky, and is likely to be problematic if it is combined with mental health problems or a general anti-world survivialist attitude then that is a problem.

Really, I'm extremely pro homeschooling. I am a homeschooler to 3 kids, I know many many homeschoolers, I grew up with homeschoolers. What I do think is that it comes with its own challenges. I think we homeschoolers are often very keen to present homeschooling as a perfect thing, and I just don't think it is. I think the issues with socialisation actually come about not because of anything inherant to homeschooling but because our kids are homeschooled in a society where most kids are schooled. While I don't think HS'd kids are superior to ps kids, I do think that schooling creates expectations around kids, and also determines how activities will be organised for them, how freely they can move in society, and how acceptable it is for them to make different sorts of friends. However, it is my experience that they are still there.

[pigpokey]

I am kind of late in answering this.

In my community I find the home schooled elementary kids to blend in very well with the schooled peers.  This is a largely secular home schooling community and people have no reason to stay home ... everyone gets out. 

I agree with a PP, you can pick out the home schooled teens because they can actually have a conversation with you where it's clear that they don't perceive you as another species altogether ... one to either distrust or look down on.  I found the same of a local private school's students.  Those kids go half-day, are treated respectfully, allowed to accelerate as they are motivated, and then either go to a job/internship or to their elite sports / music / etc. activity for a half day. 

I do have a cousin whose family home schooled their kids for religious reasons and possibly did.not.get.out.  But we don't really know much about them because they retreated from us as much as from the world.  However there is no solution and the possible harm is speculative and judgemental.  Back in the "olden days" a whole lotta kids spent almost all their time at home / with family / on the farm and were able to choose different paths at adulthood.  Or stayed there and were happy.