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Spanking vs. violence. - Page 5  

post #81 of 215
Thread Starter 


Quote:

Originally Posted by dauphinette View Post

I just don't think there IS a cut and dry answer of this is the best way for every person on the planet just typing that seems sooooo silly.  Ridiculous even.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I am for sure not saying that anything is the best way for every person on the planet.  I am saying that physical violence, toward children especially, is unequivocally the worst way for every person on the planet, and that my opinion is that spanking counts as physical violence. Am I going to try to make everyone see it the same way?  No.  Do I wish they would?  Absolutely.

post #82 of 215

I just think it's kind of self important to assume or believe that what you think is the best or only way would be right for other people....I may hav ideas about what is good or right but I certainly don't believe that I hold the answers for others.

post #83 of 215

Agreed. I don't think anyone hitting anyone for any reason is ok especially not an innocent child. Yes children are innocent. Can they be annoying? Sure. Do they deserve to be slapped for "not listening" to an adult demand? No.

 

I worked with alzheimer's patients for years and let me tell you they have a lot in common with kids. Would it be acceptable for spanking your 90 y/o mother for running across the street? How about for kicking me? Throwing a tantrum? Biting someone else? They do dangerous things all the time b/c they don't know any better. Just like a child they need to be told 20 million times. You need to be preventative and on top of them all day long. You need to spend time with them and soothe them when they are upset. Yeah ok maybe an older kid would do something knowingly and on purpose but would you really spank a 10 y/o? Wouldn't you be able to reason with them and teach them a life lesson as oppose to resorting to physical violence?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jezebelle View Post


Quote:

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I am for sure not saying that anything is the best way for every person on the planet.  I am saying that physical violence, toward children especially, is unequivocally the worst way for every person on the planet, and that my opinion is that spanking counts as physical violence. Am I going to try to make everyone see it the same way?  No.  Do I wish they would?  Absolutely.



 

post #84 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

I did say I know a LOT of people like that



I'm sorry, I did misread your comments.  But after reading it I have to say it still strikes me as preposterous.  I know thats inflamatory but I can't think of a better way to say it.  I mean are you contending that you knew a whole bunch of families growing up and they all acted, in this regard, the same way and in this regard got the same result of children being secretly afraid of their parents but in spite of their abusive upbringing went on to all become success stories?  That just seems so unlikely....

 

post #85 of 215

I agree that spanking a 10 year old would be a far less desirable an action to talking and reasoning.

And I, also have spent a lot of time with Alzheimer's patients.  My experience was as a child volunteering at the nursing home my mom worked at.  I do remember the nurses sternly grabbing patients hands to get their attention in the same way my grandmother would sternly grab my arm and sink a little bit of nail into my flesh to get my attention.  Is that violent? 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

Agreed. I don't think anyone hitting anyone for any reason is ok especially not an innocent child. Yes children are innocent. Can they be annoying? Sure. Do they deserve to be slapped for "not listening" to an adult demand? No.

 

I worked with alzheimer's patients for years and let me tell you they have a lot in common with kids. Would it be acceptable for spanking your 90 y/o mother for running across the street? How about for kicking me? Throwing a tantrum? Biting someone else? They do dangerous things all the time b/c they don't know any better. Just like a child they need to be told 20 million times. You need to be preventative and on top of them all day long. You need to spend time with them and soothe them when they are upset. Yeah ok maybe an older kid would do something knowingly and on purpose but would you really spank a 10 y/o? Wouldn't you be able to reason with them and teach them a life lesson as oppose to resorting to physical violence?
 



 



 

post #86 of 215
Thread Starter 


Quote:

Originally Posted by dauphinette View Post





I'm sorry, I did misread your comments.  But after reading it I have to say it still strikes me as preposterous.  I know thats inflamatory but I can't think of a better way to say it.  I mean are you contending that you knew a whole bunch of families growing up and they all acted, in this regard, the same way and in this regard got the same result of children being secretly afraid of their parents but in spite of their abusive upbringing went on to all become success stories?  That just seems so unlikely....

 


I don't want to speak for this poster, but I certainly grew up with several families that utilized spanking, my own being one of them.  And yes, they all resulted in scared children, quite possibly because that is usually the point of spanking.  It's classic negative reinforcement, and it creates an environment in which children do not act out (or, more likely, hide their misbehaviors) because they are scared of being struck.  If they weren't scared of it, it wouldn't "work."
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by dauphinette View Post

I was spanked according to my mom probably 2-3 times ....this was before the age of 4...

But I do know I don't remember being spanked AT ALL.  Ever.

But what I do remember is being grounded as a teen and I HATED that and felt very misunderstood and disrespected.  Totally non-violent with very lasting effects.

 


And after re-reading this, it seems obvious to me that you remember the grounding in your teen years but not the spankings in your childhood because the childhood years were likely about a decade earlier, and most people don't remember a lot from when they were toddlers.  This does not mean that you were not profoundly negatively affected by the spankings you received, whether you realized it or not.  It's quite likely that the reason you have resorted to spanking your daughter even though you seem to not be a fan of it is because you were spanked as a child.

post #87 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by hildare View Post




 if someone is on the intraweb, on this particular website, then they obviously have access to the info about why they shouldn't spank. 

 



FWIW, I've chosen not to spank (with my younger three, although I did spank ds1 a few times), because it just doesn't feel right to me at this point in my life. However, over my years at MDC, I've checked out links I've been given on this topic several times. Every one of those links was given to me with the assertion that "this clearly demonstrates what's wrong with spanking"...and not one of those links did that. Not one. Every one of them started off with something about the negative impact of spanking, indicated that the referenced research would explain this...and then proceeded to describe research on children who were beaten. I was spanked a few times. I had friends who were beaten. They're not the same thing.

 

If there's research out there that really does show these effects from spanking, I'd be interested in reading it. But, the last time I asked (several years ago), the poster I asked snottily dismissed me with some variation on "those links were posted upthread, and you could read them if you really wanted to"...which I had. They didn't say what people were claiming they said.

post #88 of 215



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jezebelle View Post


Quote:


I don't want to speak for this poster, but I certainly grew up with several families that utilized spanking, my own being one of them.  And yes, they all resulted in scared children, quite possibly because that is usually the point of spanking.  It's classic negative reinforcement, and it creates an environment in which children do not act out (or, more likely, hide their misbehaviors) because they are scared of being struck.  If they weren't scared of it, it wouldn't "work."
 

Quote:


And after re-reading this, it seems obvious to me that you remember the grounding in your teen years but not the spankings in your childhood because the childhood years were likely about a decade earlier, and most people don't remember a lot from when they were toddlers.  This does not mean that you were not profoundly negatively affected by the spankings you received, whether you realized it or not.  It's quite likely that the reason you have resorted to spanking your daughter even though you seem to not be a fan of it is because you were spanked as a child.



Hey man, I am in no way arguing with that at all.  I want to make it clear I am not in favor of spanking nor do I feel I have any answers on this subject.

But I do want to say that I do not feel spanking was a theme in my childhood AT ALL.  I don't remember it, it was not used past the age of 3/4 and my mom is not a fan and I doubt she spanked my little brother at all 10 years down the line when he was a toddler.

I truely hope that my daughter does not see spanking as a theme in her life when she is my age, I have vowed to her never to use the s word as a threat and also never to do the deed again once I realized I really really did not want to do it.  But it took me a little while to come to my own true feelings about it and by that time I had already spanked her.

 

 

 

post #89 of 215



This is very intriguing to me.  I guess it makes me wonder how I can undo the damage I have already done by already having spanked dd?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NellieKatz View Post


I think you're onto something here. I was recently reading a book called The World Peace Diet which is about veganism, and they talk about how one thing (in this case the practice of dominating and eating other creatures) has far-reaching effects on EVERYTHING else we do. Most importantly how we treat each other (i.e. human beings). So that makes sense that the spanking doesn't only affect the one being spanked. The spank-er also is affected....their self-image, their view of themselves in relation to others, how they feel problems should be/can be solved, etc. And another good point that was raised by another book I'm reading which comes to mind in this argument....(In this case it was a book about history & slavery) they said that when we treat others in a certain demeaning way for our own benefit (again, the particular argument was about slavery and oppression, but I'm drawing an analogy), we then sort of "have to" (for our own sanity) think less of that person or group of people, to justify our actions. It's to relieve the pain and stress caused by the cognitive dissonance, if I'm using the term right.

 

I totally believe that's true. In order to treat someone badly we HAVE to think of them as less-than or "other" (slavery was one situation, wartime is another example...you can think of more) because if we were to think of them as equal to us, WE would then be the bad-guys. So in order to continue to think well of ourselves, we have to adjust how we see the situation. And so I think this applies to the spanking argument too. In order to spank, you have to hold a certain idea about children.....and other power relationships.

 

Once I started to change my attitude as a parent, it changed my attitude toward other people. Same with becoming vegan. It is all inter-connected.

 



 



 

post #90 of 215
Thread Starter 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post





FWIW, I've chosen not to spank (with my younger three, although I did spank ds1 a few times), because it just doesn't feel right to me at this point in my life. However, over my years at MDC, I've checked out links I've been given on this topic several times. Every one of those links was given to me with the assertion that "this clearly demonstrates what's wrong with spanking"...and not one of those links did that. Not one. Every one of them started off with something about the negative impact of spanking, indicated that the referenced research would explain this...and then proceeded to describe research on children who were beaten. I was spanked a few times. I had friends who were beaten. They're not the same thing.

 

If there's research out there that really does show these effects from spanking, I'd be interested in reading it. But, the last time I asked (several years ago), the poster I asked snottily dismissed me with some variation on "those links were posted upthread, and you could read them if you really wanted to"...which I had. They didn't say what people were claiming they said.



Okay, this link asserts that the more a child is spanked, the lower their IQ.

And this one asserts that the more often or severely a child is spanked or beaten, the more likely they are to experience depression and anxiety, immediately following the spanking and after.

From this link, which illustrates that spanked children are more likely to be bullies:

 

Quote:

Taylor and colleagues asked about 2,500 mothers how often they had spanked their 3-year-old child in the past month. Nearly half of the moms said they had not spanked their child during the previous month, 27.9% said they spanked their 3-year-old once or twice within the last month, and 26.5% percent said they spanked their child more than twice in the past month.

 

Most of Murray Straus's work observes corporal punishment in an array of severity and frequency, and they all come to the same conclusions:  spanking has negative effects, and beatings have worse ones.  This may not be enough to "clearly demonstrate what is wrong with spanking" to you, but to me, anything that has been shown to simultaneously run the risk of decreasing my child's IQ and increasing his/her risks of becoming a bully, becoming antisocial, experiencing depression and/or anxiety, having unprotected sex, participating in domestic violence later in life, and becoming more aggressive overall is observably inappropriate at the least and absolutely idiotic at worst.

 

 

 

 

post #91 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by jezebelle View Post



 



Okay, this link asserts that the more a child is spanked, the lower their IQ.

And this one asserts that the more often or severely a child is spanked or beaten, the more likely they are to experience depression and anxiety, immediately following the spanking and after.

From this link, which illustrates that spanked children are more likely to be bullies:

 

 

Most of Murray Straus's work observes corporal punishment in an array of severity and frequency, and they all come to the same conclusions:  spanking has negative effects, and beatings have worse ones.  This may not be enough to "clearly demonstrate what is wrong with spanking" to you, but to me, anything that has been shown to simultaneously run the risk of decreasing my child's IQ and increasing his/her risks of becoming a bully, becoming antisocial, experiencing depression and/or anxiety, having unprotected sex, participating in domestic violence later in life, and becoming more aggressive overall is observably inappropriate at the least and absolutely idiotic at worst.

 

 

 

 

 

The first one refers to a study, and offers no backup for anything. I'll try to find the study itself next week (the next few days are crazy) and try to read it. I'll admit I find it very hard to credit, as I grew up in a time and place where everybody was being spanked, and my generation (locally) still managed to turn out a lot of awfully intelligent people.

 

The second one, I'll have to dig into next week, as well, as the meat of it (the actual analysis) is very wordy and it's bedtime. I will say that the assertion that anybody who is on the net, on this website, has access to this information (which is the point I was addressing with my above post) is laughable. I could read dozens, if not hundreds of pages of posts on this forum in the time it will take me to wade through that one study, let alone more of them.

 

The last one is pretty much laughable. Parental reports of how much they're spanking, combined with how much aggressive, bullying behaviour a child is exhibiting? That's correlation, but it's not necessarily causation. Of my three youngest, the only one I'm tempted to spank - ever - is ds2, because he's aggressive, sometimes bullies people, hits, throws, etc. Before noon today, he's punched his older sister in both the eye and the mouth, and this is not even remotely uncommon. The frustration of dealing with that kind of behaviour on an ongoing basis doesn't always lead to great moments in parenting - but those moments are a result of his aggressive behaviour.
 

The fact that websites assert or illustrate (not very clearly) that spanking does A, B or C does not mean that spanking has been shown to do any of those things. It means that lots of peopple assert that spanking has been shown to do these things.

 

I also have to admit that I did believe in spanking when ds1 was little (although I very rarely actually did spank him). He's now 18, and we've had no major, and few minor, behavioural issues with him. He's never been depressed. He's never been a bully. He's never been aggressive. He's been in the gifted program since third grade, and has been active at various times in choir, drama, Interact (service) club, Gymnastics, Ultimate, peer counseling, volunteer work at the Boys and Girls Club, and counseling at Outdoor School. He's an understanding, loving big brother. His friends adore him, partly because he always finds time for them, especially if someone is having a problem. He gives me hugs any time he notices I'm having a bad day (and he usually does notice). He's kind, outgoing, respectful, courteous, etc. etc.

 

Me? I was spanked. I've also struggled with depression and anxiety most of my life. I had serious aggression issues in my early teens. I had unprotected sex a few times, before I met my ex and smartened up on that front. And...none of it was because I was spanked. A lot of it was because I was sexually abused. Even more of it was because the wife of my abuser was a toxic, manipulative, evil woman who poisoned the lives of everyone she touched. Some of it was because my dad was/is an emotionally absent alcoholic. And, the aggression was mostly because of a combination of being bullied and having severe PMS, at a time when that diagnosis was barely known to the general public. So...a survey that asked if we were spanked, and then drew conclusions about the effect of spanking on my (or my sibling's) behaviour would be missing a whole lot of pieces. Surveys - and even diaries - also fail to account for beatings and flat out abuse, because mom isn't going to record "whipped junior with a belt for spilling my OJ", yk?

 

My biggest objection to all this is that most of what's presented here as fact about the effects of spanking is grossly oversimplified or applied with too broad a brush. It's also very, very likely that parents who don't spank have made a conscious effort not to do so, and are probably, in general, far more educated about other parenting strategies. Those two facts alone are going to have an impact on a person's childhood, imo.

post #92 of 215


     Quote:

Originally Posted by dauphinette View Post

I just think it's kind of self important to assume or believe that what you think is the best or only way would be right for other people....I may hav ideas about what is good or right but I certainly don't believe that I hold the answers for others.


This really isn't a "let's agree to disagree" sort of issue for me.  There are places in the world where women still do not have the right to vote.  Countries where children are sold into sexual slavery and people turn a blind eye.  Places where there is state sanctioned torture and killings based upon sexual preference.  I don't care how many people you can find to defend these actions or how many countries in which they are permitted under the law, wrong is wrong.  So hitting your child is legal in the United States, so what?  The outcome of the civil war is not what suddenly made slavery morally reprehensible, it was wrong long before it was illegal.  I certainly hope that one day people look back upon the legally sanctioned violence of our time with the same disgust and disbelief that is now reserved for the once legal practice of beating your wife.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

My biggest objection to all this is that most of what's presented here as fact about the effects of spanking is grossly oversimplified or applied with too broad a brush. It's also very, very likely that parents who don't spank have made a conscious effort not to do so, and are probably, in general, far more educated about other parenting strategies. Those two facts alone are going to have an impact on a person's childhood, imo.


I don't need a study to practice observations, reasoning, and logical thinking.  If I hit my child in order to cause them pain (whether or not I also believe that it will help to instill obedience) that is unacceptable.  Among the other things I don't need studies to KNOW are wrong: slavery, human trafficking, domestic abuse, animal abuse etc...  I do think people tend to hide behind studies when they are not confident about their own convictions.  However, when you see a parent hit their child and the shame, physical pain, and humiliation that it causes them it is crystal clear that striking children is not ok.

 

post #93 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gucci&Granola View Post


     Quote:


This really isn't a "let's agree to disagree" sort of issue for me.  There are places in the world where women still do not have the right to vote.  Countries where children are sold into sexual slavery and people turn a blind eye.  Places where there is state sanctioned torture and killings based upon sexual preference.  I don't care how many people you can find to defend these actions or how many countries in which they are permitted under the law, wrong is wrong.  So hitting your child is legal in the United States, so what?  The outcome of the civil war is not what suddenly made slavery morally reprehensible, it was wrong long before it was illegal.  I certainly hope that one day people look back upon the legally sanctioned violence of our time with the same disgust and disbelief that is now reserved for the once legal practice of beating your wife.

 




I don't need a study to practice observations, reasoning, and logical thinking.  If I hit my child in order to cause them pain (whether or not I also believe that it will help to instill obedience) that is unacceptable.  Among the other things I don't need studies to KNOW are wrong: slavery, human trafficking, domestic abuse, animal abuse etc...  I do think people tend to hide behind studies when they are not confident about their own convictions.  However, when you see a parent hit their child and the shame, physical pain, and humiliation that it causes them it is crystal clear that striking children is not ok.

 


Wrong is not wrong though.  Wrong is relative to cultural belief.  You might not LIKE someone else's "ok" but that doesn't make it wrong.  My FIL told me "morally you should marry DP" - well, i'm morally opposed to marriage!  So i can't, because to do so would be "wrong" (for me).  You don't get to dictate morality except to your children, and then only while they're young.

 

post #94 of 215

Regarding all of the spanking studies, there was an interesting paper published in the Akron Law Review which actually contradicted many of them.  I don't necessarily agree with all of the author's conclusions but it was interested reading nonetheless.  It looks at the results of a spanking ban in Sweden.

 

Honestly, I think that these papers that talk about the detriments of spanking are not necessarily looking at what I would consider "normal" (at least when I grew up) spanking--a spank on the bottom with a hand, once, not in anger.  I think these are much more likely to be spanking out of anger--which tends to get out of control.  And that's my big problem with spanking, IMHO.  It's too easy for it to escalate.  It's too easy for it to turn into true abuse.  Kids having the &$*# beat out of them, etc.  

 

I don't think any parent starts out thinking I'm going to be abusive.... or I'm going to spank in anger...or whatever.  But it happens.  I think that's why it is better to just have a no violence/spanking plan from the get-go.  I also think it's why that our schools should have a mandated parenting class that teaches GD techniques and child development in high school.  

post #95 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post




Wrong is not wrong though.  Wrong is relative to cultural belief.  You might not LIKE someone else's "ok" but that doesn't make it wrong.  My FIL told me "morally you should marry DP" - well, i'm morally opposed to marriage!  So i can't, because to do so would be "wrong" (for me).  You don't get to dictate morality except to your children, and then only while they're young.

 


I believe that the ONLY immoral things are things that hurt others. Being married, or not being married, doesn't harm anyone.

 

post #96 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2xy View Post




I believe that the ONLY immoral things are things that hurt others. Being married, or not being married, doesn't harm anyone.

 


I tend to agree, but i have been reliably informed that both i and my kids will burn in hell because i didn't marry their (different! rofl!) fathers, and that sending my poor kids to hell is wrong and harmful.  People's morality is really not as simple as "right" and "wrong".

 

One thing which is (becoming increasingly) obvious (especially since MDC dropped any pretence of moderation) is that a lot of what parents do is based on belief and not fact.  On cultural or religious or other belief.  If you agree with a practice it's because you're logical, if you disagree it's because you're not, but if you have a study to back you up the people who agree think it's a good study, the people who disagree think it's a poorly done study and you're only using it because you lack confidence in your (presumably therefore unprovable) convictions.

 

I am beginning to think that although there are things *I* wouldn't do as a parent, there's nothing much, outwith the realms of actual abuse, that is really "right" in terms of how to raise kids in general.

 

post #97 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2xy View Post

I believe that the ONLY immoral things are things that hurt others. Being married, or not being married, doesn't harm anyone.

 



Precisely.  Of course we can get into the intellectual debate about moral relativism, but then you better be ready to apply a justification for physical violence against children to physical violence against adults, women, old people, strangers, other family members...

 

Edited to say:

 

In the scheme of things there is no definitive right or wrong because everything is open to interpretation and personal opinion.  However, the application of that line of thinking is really only acceptable when you are the only person being effected by your actions.  We have all chosen to live in a society amongst others and therefore must adhere to certain codes of conduct.  This principle is the foundation of our entire legal system.  In South Africa women are gang raped as a corrective measure for being homosexual.  The ideology behind the actions is justified by the beliefs of many in that culture.  My issue is not with the ideology (you can have whatever warped views you want) but rather with the forcible application of that ideology onto others.  

post #98 of 215


Oh this is just digusting.  Correlating GANG RAPE to a smack on the hiney?  You have been really pushing the limit in this conversation as far as what you have compared spanking to but this just crosses the line.  Get a grip, lady.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gucci&Granola View Post





Precisely.  Of course we can get into the intellectual debate about moral relativism, but then you better be ready to apply a justification for physical violence against children to physical violence against adults, women, old people, strangers, other family members...

 

Edited to say:

 

In the scheme of things there is no definitive right or wrong because everything is open to interpretation and personal opinion.  However, the application of that line of thinking is really only acceptable when you are the only person being effected by your actions.  We have all chosen to live in a society amongst others and therefore must adhere to certain codes of conduct.  This principle is the foundation of our entire legal system.  In South Africa women are gang raped as a corrective measure for being homosexual.  The ideology behind the actions is justified by the beliefs of many in that culture.  My issue is not with the ideology (you can have whatever warped views you want) but rather with the forcible application of that ideology onto others.  



 

post #99 of 215

And how is that sort of outlandish argument going to get this conversation anywhere?

post #100 of 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by dauphinette View Post

And how is that sort of outlandish argument going to get this conversation anywhere?



Of course you are entitled to your opinion (as I am mine).  My post was actually agreeing with a previous comment about morality being relative.  I chose an example that I knew would be reprehensible to the other members of this forum as a way to illustrate that point.  You say imposing my personal code of conduct and moral compass onto how others should treat their children is "pushing the limit".  Ok, tell me who has the authority to advocate against violence?  Where do we draw the line and who gets to decide on the standards we live by.

 

If you would prefer an apples to apples comparison I will use spousal abuse instead.  If a man lightly smacks his wife because she behaves in a way that he deems unacceptable there are many places in the world that protect his 'right' to do so.  The greater point I was trying to make is:

 

In the scheme of things there is no definitive right or wrong because everything is open to interpretation and personal opinion.  However, the application of that line of thinking is really only acceptable when you are the only person being effected by your actions.  Your "smack your child on the bottom" that you may find completely morally sound is another person's "smack my wife in the face"

 

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