MAJOR ETHICAL DILEMMA, Please Help :) - Page 2

[lawmama1984]

Originally Posted by Celticqueen 

Maybe if you do call them, request that they just make visits? Request a more minor form of intervention before outright taking the child? Like a warning per se? I know if I were in this mom's situation, getting a knock on the door from CPS would FREAK ME OUT and I'd be willing to change almost anything to cooperate with them to prevent getting my baby taken away. But maybe that's just me...

HUGS!

I just don't think this is feasible, as a matter of course. I don't think you can call CPS and "request" they do things a certain way, kwim? If OP calls them and explains the situation as she did here, they will be out there doing a full on investigation.

I would absolutely either call the pedi or CPS.  The pedi si under obligation to report suspected abuse or neglect.  If you don't want to do it, call him and report the underfeeding, or call CPS and if she is suspicious of you, you can blame the pedi.  Or you could try talking to the husband first and seeing if you can get him to step in and get his wife help

[wombatclay]

Just a quick reminder to the thread... I think everyone is being very gentle and aware, but do let's keep the focus on the OP and her situation and not get side tracked into a discussion of the personality or behavior of the mom or the role of individual members in that family.  There's a lot of second hand/third hand information and it's impossible to tell what is actually going on.

It could be a mental health concern (I've had PPD and PTSD following an unplanned c/s and despite advanced degrees and a full "understanding" of PPD I wasn't the one to "turn myself in"... I was fortunate enough to have a DH and a family dr who saw the signs and got me the help I needed but most assuredly didn't "want" or feel was at all applicable "to me" at the time).  Mothering Magazine has some wonderful articles about PPD and PPPsychosis, but even a gentle suggestion of a well known mental health disorder from a non-family member might not go over very well.  :(

And it could be this family is following one of the (sadly, many) parenting philosophies that include scheduled feedings.  There have been infant deaths and court cases and much heartbreak surrounding some of these philosophies, but the books are still widely available at mainstream bookstores and are even the corner stone of some church based parenting programs.  If this family is following a specific philosophy, and especially if it is one that is encouraged by their church, then again... a suggestion that the philosophy is doing more harm than good for their infant may be taken the wrong way.  However, you might approach the minister of their congregation if that is applicable here.

It's a very difficult situation because things like scheduled feeding or a lack of socially displayed maternal affection aren't "crimes".  A call to the family doctor (or minister) about possible PPD/underfeeding might be more helpful than a call to CPS since, again, scheduled feedings and a mother who travels for business aren't crimes and while CPS may open a file they probably don't have the staff/time/budget to investigate this sort of report in any detail.

And outside that... can you spend more time with this family so you have first hand information and can, perhaps, lighten some of this family's "new baby" load?  Model other parenting philosophies in a non-confrontational way?  Perhaps suggest a visit to a local ICAN or SOLACE group (these also have online support forums, ICAN specifically surrounding cesarean birth and SOLACE for all different sorts of birth trauma)?  Offer to go with her to a LLL meeting so she can see other breastfeeding moms and perhaps adjust her expectations along those lines?  Drop off a mother care package (c/s is major surgery, Earth Mama Angel Baby makes a c/s recovery kit, or you could make one yourself with some Milk Maid tea, lotion for scar massage, maybe a soothing eye pillow with lavender oil or some bach rescue remedy spray), offer to bring over a complete meal or two, that sort of thing?  And have your partner "hang out" with his best friend a bit more with conversations along these lines?

I never would have gotten the help I needed if it hadn't been for my DH basically telling my doctor at a PP visit that he was sure I had PPD.  I could have killed him in that moment, and I was mortified that I wasn't "holding it all together"... that someone, anyone, could POSSIBLY think something was wrong.  But I'm so thankful he did what he did.  And he is under standing orders to turn me in again if I start down the PPD path again.

Good luck to you and your friend... no matter what, she is fortunate to have friends who care and worry about her!

[frugalmum]

Just a thought, maybe she is so strictly rationing the breastmilk because she isn't able to pump enough?  And is determined that her baby not have formula?  Either way the poor thing needs to eat as much as s/he wants, if I were in a situation exclusively pumping and not getting enough I would definitely supplement with formula.  If she is a new mom she may not even realize how much a baby needs to eat (even if she is book-smart on health issues).

As far as the not holding the baby, I don't know, some people really prefer to have other people take care of their babies and see no problem with it.  I know a lady who literally hands her babies off to female relatives as soon as she is back from the hospital and goes right back to work, sometimes the baby stays on many days (including overnights) with the relatives without the mom there-- they just don't see it as a big deal.  So I wouldn't be as concerned about that as only giving a baby 2 oz at a time.

[TheGirls]

Wow, that is nowhere near enough food.  My boys were (are) bottlefed, and take around 40oz/day of formula (each).   Scheduled feeding seems more common than demand feeding amongst the parents I know, but even so, I've never heard of a schedule that only allows 1/2-3/4oz an hour for any baby!  The boys were preemies and ate about 2oz every 3hrs at birth.

At that age, most folks who do scheduled feedings offer 4-6oz every 3-4 hours.  Most will give a baby a bigger feed if they want it, though unfortunately may not offer an "extra" feeding.   A rule of thumb for newborn formula feeding is 2.5xbaby's weight in lbs = number of ounces the baby needs per day.  For a 9lb baby that means at least 22oz a day....

At that age, the boys normally ate about 4-5 oz every 2-3 hours (we demand feed).   Now, they usually eat about 6-8oz every 4-5 hours.   Sometimes more, sometimes less. 

[Marissamom]

I haven't read the replies yet, but... what ethical dilemma? you know that someone is starving their child, you call CPS. it's that simple. also, from the original post, it sounds like this mother could have a psychotic break if she's left alone with the baby, the child is not safe in that situation. 

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by wombatclay 

And it could be this family is following one of the (sadly, many) parenting philosophies that include scheduled feedings.  There have been infant deaths and court cases and much heartbreak surrounding some of these philosophies, but the books are still widely available at mainstream bookstores and are even the corner stone of some church based parenting programs.

I guess I don't see the scheduling itself as the problem -- it's the fact that she's only allowing the baby 2oz. If she was offering 4-6oz every few hours, I still might inwardly groan at the scheduling aspect, but wouldn't be red-flagging the baby's immediate health. I don't agree with scheduled feeding but I know many people do that -- but I don't know of any program that recommends feeding a baby THAT little???

[wombatclay]

I understand... 2oz every 3 hours just isn't enough.  But that information was provided by a temporary/part time nanny, to a friend of that nanny, then to this list.  And the pediatrician's concerns about weight gain have a similar "telephone game" quality.  Going to CPS with a "my friend told me that another friend isn't feeding her baby enough, and that new mom friend isn't returning my text messages" just isn't going to help anyone in this situation, and it may cause actually hurt.  By offering to help out the OP can not only relieve some of the completely normal stress on the new family, but see for herself if her friend might be suffering from PPD (or perhaps having a difficult time adjusting to her surgical birth, or to new motherhood in general) or if the infant might be suffering from more than colic or a cultural/familial atmosphere in which mom is less involved in the baby care and more involved in the "out of home" side of supporting the family.

[APToddlerMama]

Originally Posted by wombatclay 

It's a very difficult situation because things like scheduled feeding or a lack of socially displayed maternal affection aren't "crimes".  A call to the family doctor (or minister) about possible PPD/underfeeding might be more helpful than a call to CPS since, again, scheduled feedings and a mother who travels for business aren't crimes and while CPS may open a file they probably don't have the staff/time/budget to investigate this sort of report in any detail.

Scheduled feeding is not a crime, however, basically starving your baby is considered neglect and CPS does and should intervene in cases like these.  OP--I would also definitely call the pediatrician.  Explain who you are and that you understand that they cannot provide you with any information, but that you want to provide them with some information.  I would also call CPS.  wombatclay is right and they will likely not investigate--and if they do, there is about a 99.999% chance that they will not remove this child from this home, but it might scare mom into feeding this baby enough.  I work in child welfare, and sad to say, mom's education, etc., will likely be enough to convince CPS to back off but it is worth a shot.  You don't have to give them your name, and I doubt they'll figure out it is you since baby is also in daycare.  Also, stick to the fact that the baby is being way underfed--not that mom is lacking maternal affection for her child.  Good luck. 

[lunarlady]

My BF baby was fed 2 oz every 3 hours when I went back to work at 7 weeks. She was fed on demand, and that is what she preferred. She also reverse cycled and nursed a lot when I was home, like every hour and a half. So while i understand the concerns of the OP, I also feel that there is a huge chunk of the story we don't have. Maybe she doesn't hold baby before she goes because she is broken up about leaving. Maybe she is suffering from PPD or PTSD. Maybe DH is doing bottles all night because the wife is hooked to a pump because baby has latch issues. What that woman and her DH need is support and guidence from her friends, her family, and her doctor, not the threat of a state agency taking away their child. Before I went to CPS I would do what the OP said she is doing - have them over for dinner and figure out exactly what is going on and why. Offer to help. Assess the situation for myself rather than hearing everything second or third hand. If they are intentionally starving baby, then yes, it is time for CPS. But there is a lot of other possibilities that should be eliminated before one can say this couple is abusing their baby.

[BenimBebek]

Hey All, wanted to post an update!  The mom is still out of the country on business and the MIL is here and feeding the baby.  The father told my DH that "its so weird how happy the baby is with my mother."  DH and I just cringed.  DH decided to go over and visit them this weekend and talk to the MIL.  He thinks she will be a more powerful voice to her son than he will.  The MIL hasnt seen the mother and baby interact yet, bu Im sure once mom is home, the MIL will be very concerned with the lack of emotional connection.  

I am shocked that many of you know people who schedule infant feedings!!  I do have a friend whose newborn ate (and still eats) every 3-4 hours, but it totally freaked her out!!  I've never known anyone to schedule feedings.

I'll post another update once I know more.  

Thank you all sooo much for your input!  I have been so distraught over this.

[BenimBebek]

Update 2, she came back and we went over for dinner.  The MIL kept complaining (unknown to her, as it was in a foreign language) that she was starving the baby.  But I spoke with her and she kept saying, "my MIL is overfeeding him"  and I said, "oh, is he gaining too much weight?"  "What, no.  The opposite actually, but its fine."  I didnt see her BF him the entire time, once the MIL gave him a bottle.  And she didnt pump at all either.  And we were there for 5 hours.  She seems attached the baby though- i mean, not overly affectionate for sure, I could see how my other friend would be uncomfortable, but I think she just doesnt understand her personality.  Not like she doesnt care about him though.  She really does think she is doing whats best for him.  I just am confused as to why she thinks her MIL is over-feeding a baby that even the pedi thinks is underweight?  That makes no sense.

So, I did give her a bit of advice in a round about way.  Right when I got there she started complaining about the MIL overfeeding and wasting all her milk stash, so I asked her a bunch of questions, "oh is the baby spitting up a lot?"  "Yeah!"  "Is the spit up chunky or just milk?"  "Just milk."  "Hmm, well, Ive never heard of overfeeding an infant.  I think its probably fine unless your pedi thinks hes gaining too much weight."  "Too much?  No, hes underweight."  "Oh, well then its probably fine, you have to be careful with underweight, doctors are required to report cases of infants not gaining enough weight to CPS and they will put the baby into a mandatory feeding program where they weigh the baby and you have to supplement with formula."  "seriously?"  "Thats what I've heard, yes.  They take it very seriously.  I would just feed feed feed him." Later, when she was complaining about her MIL saying she "gives terrible advice" and I said that "mine did too except when I was trying to put my son on a feeding schedule she said never to do that and once I stopped DS started gaining weight!"  I could tell her wheels were turning.

I hope that it helps, the only comfort I have is that she doesnt seem depressed (other than being trapped with inlaws) and she isnt doing it on purpose.  Well, not maliciously at least.  I will see her again this week.  She invited us over to go swimming.  And the baby will start day care the day after the MIL leaves.  So, they will certainly not under feed him!!!  But I have to tell you, the baby looks terrible.  REALLY TINY.  I mean, hes still wearing newborn clothes and hes 3 months old now.  He can barely hold up his wobbly head.  He literally hasnt changed since birth.  And he has trouble following things with his eyes :(  Hes definitely behind developmentally.  I'll post again once I see some weight gain on him.  I know this story has upset a few of you!  Im sorry, but really appreciate the support from you all!!!   

[APToddlerMama]

Poor baby.  Thanks for the update OP.  I am glad MIL is on the same page as you and that you were able to gently offer some guidance.  Hopefully that helps.  If not, I'd call CPS. 

[crunchy_mommy]

Thank you for the update. I hope mom has reached a bit of a turning point & will consider what you've said... but mostly I just hope someone helps this poor baby. I'm glad she's not doing it maliciously, at least, since that's how it sounded to me at first. Keep us posted...

[Lisa1970]

Some mothers do not love their children. It is nice to assume this is just PPD, but seriously, it might never change. It might be PPD, but it might just be how she is, which either way, it is not ok. But to me, it does not sound like PPD. If you two are close to the husband enough to talk to him, go to him when the wife is not around and talk to him about it. Maybe also, put in a private call to the pediatrician and let him/her know what you know but to keep it private that you called. You are just giving them information so they can keep an eye on things. I actually had to do that before, but it was a case of an older person who was not understanding things. The doctor never told him I called but ordered extra tests on him the next time.

[cwtmommy]

maybe talk to her and have your phone record the convo or something and use it as proof of her doing what she is doing? this is so not right

[khaoskat]

I am going to throw out a few thoughts...

1) Yes it is very common to have babies on feeding schedules.  I was hospitalized with a FTT baby (due to a combination of issues starting a few months before).  They put him on a strict feeding schedule, regardless of him getting hungry between feedings.  When we were discharged, and saw our Ped a few days later, she let us modify it to nursing on demand...

2) She said to you he spits up a lot.  She should let her ped know and maybe try to see if he has GERD or reflux.  That was one of our major problems.  Reflux/GERD babies can do one of two things -- either not gain weight due to eating just enough to keep from starving but still scream because of the pain; or they can gain so much weight they are overweight for their age.

3) Try to encourage her to actually nurse...find out if there is a reason why she is pumping and feeding rather than direct nursing..

[Fulhouse]

I would like to see an update on this poor starving baby! How's he doing now?

My SIL did the baby wise thing. Its such a freakish control thing for these moms. Their top priority is not to let the baby get the Better of them. Who would want a mom like that? My SiL would be crying and leaking milk outside the closed nursery door, with baby wailing in hunger in the crib inside, waiting for the "right time" on the schedule to feed. Hideous.

It's one way to teach a new resident of this planet that it is a rough world and no one is to be trusted. Great, we have to live with these heartless people for the rest of our lives. And people wonder why some people are just not good people.

[lunabin]

I can't help but comment here...  if she's experiencing any ppd or pp psychosis, then it's not that she is being malicious, but simply using poor judgement.  It sounds like she is not intentionally hurting him, but I still think this is worth calling out and getting professional help involved.  

If you happen to know who the pediatrician is, you can call him/her and tell them what the nanny told you about their feeding schedule and your concerns with the mother.  Doctors are mandated reporters, so they would have to make the decision about whether or not to get cps involved.  BUT, as a professional who's been there - cps is not an agency out to get parents in trouble.  They simply want to protect kids.  This poor baby may be in the hands of 2 new and overly stressed parents who are not in a rational mindset to see what is happening here.  The baby very likely will not be taken away, but it could be a wake up call that could save this baby's life and get the parent's the help they need!  

I feel so strongly about this, that if you pm me the info I will call myself!  

[lavatea]

Originally Posted by BenimBebek 

Update 2, she came back and we went over for dinner.  The MIL kept complaining (unknown to her, as it was in a foreign language) that she was starving the baby.  But I spoke with her and she kept saying, "my MIL is overfeeding him"  and I said, "oh, is he gaining too much weight?"  "What, no.  The opposite actually, but its fine."  I didnt see her BF him the entire time, once the MIL gave him a bottle.  And she didnt pump at all either.  And we were there for 5 hours.  She seems attached the baby though- i mean, not overly affectionate for sure, I could see how my other friend would be uncomfortable, but I think she just doesnt understand her personality.  Not like she doesnt care about him though.  She really does think she is doing whats best for him.  I just am confused as to why she thinks her MIL is over-feeding a baby that even the pedi thinks is underweight?  That makes no sense.

So, I did give her a bit of advice in a round about way.  Right when I got there she started complaining about the MIL overfeeding and wasting all her milk stash, so I asked her a bunch of questions, "oh is the baby spitting up a lot?"  "Yeah!"  "Is the spit up chunky or just milk?"  "Just milk."  "Hmm, well, Ive never heard of overfeeding an infant.  I think its probably fine unless your pedi thinks hes gaining too much weight."  "Too much?  No, hes underweight."  "Oh, well then its probably fine, you have to be careful with underweight, doctors are required to report cases of infants not gaining enough weight to CPS and they will put the baby into a mandatory feeding program where they weigh the baby and you have to supplement with formula."  "seriously?"  "Thats what I've heard, yes.  They take it very seriously.  I would just feed feed feed him." Later, when she was complaining about her MIL saying she "gives terrible advice" and I said that "mine did too except when I was trying to put my son on a feeding schedule she said never to do that and once I stopped DS started gaining weight!"  I could tell her wheels were turning.

I hope that it helps, the only comfort I have is that she doesnt seem depressed (other than being trapped with inlaws) and she isnt doing it on purpose.  Well, not maliciously at least.  I will see her again this week.  She invited us over to go swimming.  And the baby will start day care the day after the MIL leaves.  So, they will certainly not under feed him!!!  But I have to tell you, the baby looks terrible.  REALLY TINY.  I mean, hes still wearing newborn clothes and hes 3 months old now.  He can barely hold up his wobbly head.  He literally hasnt changed since birth.  And he has trouble following things with his eyes :(  Hes definitely behind developmentally.  I'll post again once I see some weight gain on him.  I know this story has upset a few of you!  Im sorry, but really appreciate the support from you all!!!   

Just some things that jumped out at me.

• Some women don't BF but only pump and bottlefeed. Nothing wrong with that if that's how they want to do it. Better than formula at any rate. And perhaps she didn't want to pump while you were over b/c it embarrassed her or whatever. 5 hours without pumping isn't that extreme. She may have pumped right before you got there.
• You alluded in another post that the MIL is from an overfeeding type culture, so I can see why this woman might be paranoid about MIL using up all of her hard-pumped milk stash.
• I've seen a lot of new parents feed their tiny newborn babies (whose stomachs are about the size of a marble) an entire 60 ml of formula. Then the kid spits an insane amount of it back up all over itself. You can absolutely feed them too much. (Though it doesn't sound like this is the case in this situation.)

Someone else mentioned this baby might have GERD. I'm glad someone brought that up b/c it sounds like it could fit.

Anyway, I wonder too about an update on this situation.

[Beccadoula]

Someone probably already said this, but it sounds like trauma from the birth - and it is likely very serious.  But, CPS should be a last resort...is there some other way to get through to this mom how off her behavior is?  She is likely totally numb...she can't feel a whole lot or she'll be deeply emotional over what happened during the birth.  Can you recommend ICAN?  Put her in touch with someone who can walk her through the grieving process and show her what needs to happen to bond with her baby?  I have personally encountered this situation and sometimes just seeing someone else interract with the baby helps a mom wake up to how cold and distant she's acting.