or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Pregnancy and Birth › Birth and Beyond › MAJOR ETHICAL DILEMMA, Please Help :)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

MAJOR ETHICAL DILEMMA, Please Help :) - Page 3

post #41 of 84

Maybe you could find a way to get this link to her?

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/pumping/milkcalc.html

post #42 of 84

i think it's important not to conflate the multiple issues in this particular situation:

 

mom is giving a lot of the day to day care of her infant to other people. this is NOT wrong. it's not attachment parenting, we may not agree with it, but it's NOT wrong. i have a couple of friends (both incidentally from the same culture, although i'm not sure if that's a factor) who are perfectly happy to have their MILs, other family members, nannies and daycare workers do a lot of the daily grunt work involved in caring for an infant. they were dropping off their infants at nana's house for weekly overnight visits and going on multiple day vacations without the baby from the beginning. obviously EBFing isn't possible in those situations, but they still started off giving their infants breastmilk. now, it's not how i would do things, and i worried and judged when i saw them doing this, but they are very bonded with their children as toddlers, and i don't worry at all any more. 

 

mom isn't touching or "bonding" with her infant. this can be a serious sign OR it can be nothing. some people have a harder time than others with the infant stage, some people might have PPD, or there might be long term emotional issues. i think that the OP might be wise to mention the PPD thing to either the mom or the husband (find a checklist of signs of PPD and give it to him), but if it's not PPD, then it's too early to judge if the mom just doesn't really like the newborn stage, isn't finding the switch from professional woman to mother very easy or something else. 

 

the baby looks "awful." this is another really sticky one. and again, it could be serious, or it could be nothing. the friend i mentioned before, i really worried about her and her baby because the baby was a really late bloomer, and coupled with her parenting style that i didn't really agree with, i wasn't sure if they were connected. a baby might be "small", "floppy" or otherwise appear to be behind because of underfeeding and no interaction, OR that could just be the way he is. my dd definitely appeared that way as a newborn... she was 5 weeks early and coupled with her natural inclination to be petite and slower on gross motor skills, it could definitely have appeared to others that there was something "wrong" with her as a newborn. the children that i was concerned about as infants (including my own!) are now all vibrant, vivacious and very mobile toddlers. so i think it's too early to make judgments about the appearance and development of an infant especially if we aren't medical professionals.

 

the mom isn't feeding enough and is using a schedule. sadly, a lot of people DO use scheduling and training on their infants. there are a lot of books out there that advocate it, and i am constantly surprised at the amount of people that i consider to be loving, attached parents who admit they used some kind of training for their kids. it really shocks me, but caring for an infant can be very overwhelming, and there is a lot of bad, "old wives" advice out there on both sides (attachment AND mainstream). it's really easy to understand how people could read or hear or be told some kind of crazy advice and really take it to heart. if you heard a friend was only feeding their baby 2oz and you had no other concerns about their behavior, what would you do? you'd call them or visit them and say, "hey, i think your baby is crying because he needs more milk" and she'd say "oh, but such and such a book told me," or "my grandmother said..." and you'd say, "that's terrible advice!" and that would be that. 

 

anyway, i think we're jumping to conclusions because the very way this woman is parenting is counter to everything we think is important, and i think that might color our judgment a little bit. the only thing that's really wrong is that the baby is only getting 2oz per feeding and is crying a lot, and *might* be underweight. if the baby has GERD, he might be screaming all the time regardless of how often he's getting fed, and the weight issues might be due to that or just DNA. just focus on finding out why she's only feeding a small amount and go from there. 

post #43 of 84
Thread Starter 

Last Update.  Baby was put into day care right after my last post and gained over 2 lbs in less than 2 weeks.  To me, clear case of the woman starving the crap out of the poor little guy.  A rare instance where the baby was way better off not being cared for by his mother.  He is still behind on milestones and gets sick all the time (longest lasting upper respiratory infection imaginable), but now that hes being fed I think he will start to catch up, hoping no permanent damage was done in the first 3 months.

 

I completely disagree with posters who said that some moms prefer to bottle feed pumped milk instead of breastmilk from the breast.  For a newborn.  This is unacceptable.  There is no way to pump frequently enough to get that poor baby what they really need.  Sometimes sure, but you either feed from the breast or supplement.  A Pump does NOT drain the breast like a baby.  Period.

 

This mother had given up breastfeeding her infant completely before 6 months.  She once told me she hated it because they were meant for sex not for breastfeeding.  And that breastfeeding ruined sex.  So.  I think that should shed some light onto where her head was.  

 

At at party recently I was saying my four year old doesn't bother to throw fits when we are out because she knows she wont get what shes asking for if she does and she said, "i know right, its so annoying when they start to scream and embarrass you.  Its like do you tell them no or just give them what they want until you get to the car."  This woman has ONE BABY, he was 6 months old at the time.  Shes clearly just deranged.  The more I hear her talk about motherhood the more I realize how horribly damaged she must have been by her own parents to see being a mother the way she does.  Like this annoying task that has to be done because her husband wanted kids. 

 

So sad.  I guess everyone doesn't have an affectionate mom :(  They are a cry-it-out family too, as it turns out.  

 

Thanks for all your support and suggestions on this topic!  Much appreciated.  Glad we didn't have to call social services.  

post #44 of 84
Thread Starter 

oh my god.  i cannot even imagine how twisted our society has become that a woman believes this is the right way to care for a baby.  WHAT THE H***!  Omg, it literally makes me want to scream! I cannot imagine watching this.  I would have gone absolutely crazy.  Why cant people TAKE A STEP BACK and use their intuition.  

post #45 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenimBebek View Post

I completely disagree with posters who said that some moms prefer to bottle feed pumped milk instead of breastmilk from the breast.  For a newborn.  This is unacceptable.  There is no way to pump frequently enough to get that poor baby what they really need.  Sometimes sure, but you either feed from the breast or supplement.  A Pump does NOT drain the breast like a baby.  Period.

 

I'm not sure why you "disagree" with mom's pumping and bottle feeding.  It is a huge trend I've seen.  I wouldn't do it but I think this is bridging a gap for mom's who don't want to bf (or can't) but still want to give the baby breastmilk.  I had to pump for my first baby for a few weeks (we syringe fed and tried to nurse) and it would have been more than enough for him.  I have a huge oversupply.

 

I'm glad the baby is doing better.  You seem really mad at this mother and I while I realize you're upset, you're getting mean about it.  You have no idea what's going on in her head and how they want to run their family.  I get where you're coming from but I don't think you can let it get to you so much. 
 

 

post #46 of 84
Thread Starter 

No no, I mean exclusively pumping.  I.E. no breast time.  I have spoken with multiple lactation consultants and LLL leaders about this issue.  Everyone I spoke to said the same thing, unless you have an oversupply problem, the average mother cannot pump enough to completely bottle feed breastmilk for a newborn.

 

yeh, its really hard to watch.  I think I am mad at her.  I guess I need to let go of it.  But my husband and I still feel, I dont know, upset by the whole thing.  :(

post #47 of 84
There are a lot of moms who EP (in fact, there are some right here on this forum) and their babies are just fine. A good friend of mine had a baby born at 28 weeks and he spent two months in the nicu, where she pumped constantly with a hospital pump and kept her supply going until the baby got to come home. After he came home, she tried to get him to latch and he never would. She saw LC's, she stopped the bottles, she did everything she could and he just wouldnt latch, and the crying at the breast stressed everyone out to the point where she decided to exclusively pump instead. He is two years old and has a brand new little sister and is still drinking breastmilk from a sippy cup and not nursing. Supply is all about how often the breasts are being drained, so it is possible to for an average mother to pump enough to be able to feed their baby, especially with a high quality pump.

While you might not agree with it, there are times when a mom has to do that and there is no point in saying its impossible to do it and have a healthy baby because that just stresses mom's out who are having a hard time.

Im glad the situation with your friend is being taken care of, and it does seem like she has some bonding issues. But, not all moms who EP have bonding issues.
post #48 of 84
I agree that exclusively pumping is not impossible as you seem to think it is... there are moms here who do it quite successfully. I think it's a disservice to them to put them in the same category as a mother who is starving her child. There are lots of different ways to feed a baby well -- and it doesn't matter what method you are using if you're starving your child.

I am glad the baby is finally getting fed but I think it's horrible that he had to wait so long because no one wanted to get involved or whatever. greensad.gif
post #49 of 84
Thread Starter 

That is definitely an extra-ordinary situation.  And not what Im talking about.  There was clearly a medical reason for her to need to EP.  Of course, that is totally fine.  There will always be outliers to every rule.  But Im saying in general, exclusively pumping is really taking a huge risk that you will underfeed you baby.

post #50 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenimBebek View Post  But Im saying in general, exclusively pumping is really taking a huge risk that you will underfeed you baby.


Can you please cite your source for this?  I know that there's been a huge trend (not saying majority) towards pumping and bottle-feeding.  While again, I wouldn't do it, where have you seen research on this not being enough?

 

post #51 of 84
You know, the more I think about this, the more I feel like you havent really thought this through, women exclusively pumping that is. Have you thought about the fact that some women dont like the idea of having another human close to their breast because they :

a) were sexually abused
b) have issues with the body regarding weight or how their breasts look
c) have sensory issues related to the feeling of a baby being latched
d) are completely uneducated

I really dont think that women who are EPing for reasons that you dont know about/ understand are doing it because "breasts are for sex, not babies." Most women who have that kind of mentality just go ahead and formula feed their babies (at least the only two women Ive ever met with that mentality feed formula only). EPing is a LOT of work. It takes twice (at least) the amount of time that EBF does when you consider that you have to pump AND spend the time to bottle feed, along with all the time it takes to clean your breast pump, thaw milk, and keep bottles and nipples clean. Couple all that effort with a google search that results in a thread like this where someone is proclaiming that they are "underfeeding their baby" and that is a recipe for women who are busting their as* to just give up and buy formula that afternoon. It is a total PIA to EP , and most mothers are not doing because it is easier, by any means. Most women who EP have a good reason for it.

As far as you "okaying" (not that its really your place) mamas who EP for medical reasons, I would venture to say that my friend who had medical reasons is not in the minority. Most mama's who are EPing are doing all this extra work because they care that their baby get breastmilk instead of formula. I would say almost everyone who EP's either has a medical reason or one of the reasons I listed above. Either way, most moms who have to EP are sad that they cannot have the breastfeeding relationship that they want. People who just dont want a baby close to their breast are more than likely the minority here.

Personally, Im so lazy I barely ever pumped because it takes too much time to clean the tubes and I dont have to go to work, but, I have a lot of respect for women who go to all that effort so their kid can have breastmilk.
post #52 of 84
Thread Starter 

I spoke with my own lactation consultant, who had heard of the "trend" and she asked her colleagues who agreed it would be very difficult and require constant pumping in the hours/days post birth to get a supply that could properly feed the baby without actually breastfeeding, based solely on the fact that a pump cannot get all the milk out like the baby can.  So, you get less each time WHILE sending the message to your breasts that they are making too much.  I also spoke with several LLL members and leaders.  No one is totally against USING a bottle.  But a mom who is trying to only pump and never put the baby to the breast is going to have a very hard time (unless she has over supply issues like you) making enough milk to feed a newborn.  Not to mention take care of herself, and take care of the baby, etc.  No one felt that promoting this as an option was a good idea, because of the risk it posed to the child for the exact reason my friend experienced.  

 

She tried to bottle feed the baby solely by pumping as frequently as she thought the baby should eat... it didnt work.  And by 6 months she said "my milk supply went down, so I just stopped."  No doubt she had someone tell her some story about their friend who exclusively pumped and it was no big deal.  Just like breastfeeding in general, people never say the truth about how much time is involved and new moms end up being totally overwhelmed when they realize its their whole life those first few weeks/months.  Lets stop being devils advocate for a second and seriously talk about how much pumping would be involved in getting a normal new moms pumped supply to be enough without risking keeping calories from a baby whose brain is developing at such a rapid pace.  

 

I think we are focusing way too much on the exceptions, instead of the rule.  Is it physically possible, maybe.  But lets be honest about the time commitment that would be involved if you want to still feed your baby as much as they need for development.

post #53 of 84
Thread Starter 

As far as you "okaying" (not that its really your place) mamas who EP for medical reasons, I would venture to say that my friend who had medical reasons is not in the minority. Most mama's who are EPing are doing all this extra work because they care that their baby get breastmilk instead of formula. I would say almost everyone who EP's either has a medical reason or one of the reasons I listed above. Either way, most moms who have to EP are sad that they cannot have the breastfeeding relationship that they want. People who just dont want a baby close to their breast are more than likely the minority here.

good lord.  seriously? it feels like you are just disagreeing for fun.  Im saying that I do not like the idea of promoting EP because it IS SO MUCH EXTRA WORK and no one tells moms this.  And they might not realize BECAUSE THEY ARE UNEDUCATED about the subject, or have a myriad of other emotional reasons for not wanting to, that it will be very difficult and could lead to their baby not getting enough calories, just like it did with my friend.  who cares the reason... bottom line is that moms should know the risks.  and i dont think they do.  

post #54 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenimBebek View Post

I completely disagree with posters who said that some moms prefer to bottle feed pumped milk instead of breastmilk from the breast.  For a newborn.  This is unacceptable.  There is no way to pump frequently enough to get that poor baby what they really need.  Sometimes sure, but you either feed from the breast or supplement.  A Pump does NOT drain the breast like a baby.  Period.


 

Eh, I exclusively pumped for my daughter for more than a year.  She had a persistent inability to transfer milk, despite twice-weekly visits to the LC...I pumped a lot with her, setting an alarm to wake up 2x nightly, and continued when I returned to work.  In my situation, my breasts adapted, I suppose --- I was able to pump 14+ oz every three or four hours; not only did I have enough for my daughter, but ended up donating to a baby in Seattle (via FedEx) and a local foster baby.  It *can* be done --- there is a whole EP'ing Mamas thread here!  #2, same thing, this time my preference -- I was so used to pumping, it wasn't an issue.  I EBF her by pumping til 8mo, along with another local baby for 50% of his needs; only pumped 5x a day for her.  There are women out there who do it, for whatever reason.  Six months of breastmilk is a lot better than most babies get.

 

I too am glad this baby is now gaining.  Thanks for the update.

post #55 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenimBebek View Post

good lord.  seriously? it feels like you are just disagreeing for fun.  Im saying that I do not like the idea of promoting EP because it IS SO MUCH EXTRA WORK and no one tells moms this.  And they might not realize BECAUSE THEY ARE UNEDUCATED about the subject, or have a myriad of other emotional reasons for not wanting to, that it will be very difficult and could lead to their baby not getting enough calories, just like it did with my friend.  who cares the reason... bottom line is that moms should know the risks.  and i dont think they do.  


Youve missed the entire point. My point is that what YOU believe to be the exception is typically, in fact, the rule. Most moms dont EP for fun or because its easier. The fact that you are suggesting that I am promoting it makes me think you havent read any of my posts. And the fact that you capitalized "IT IS SO MUCH MORE WORK" leads me to believe that you dont think it is, which is pretty insulting to moms who have to do it.
post #56 of 84
Thread Starter 

jesus christ.  i think its so much more work that its physically not possible for most woman which is why acting like its a totally plausible method of nursing is unfair to women.  hahaha.  ahhhhhhhh.

post #57 of 84

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenimBebek View Post
I completely disagree with posters who said that some moms prefer to bottle feed pumped milk instead of breastmilk from the breast.  For a newborn.  This is unacceptable.  There is no way to pump frequently enough to get that poor baby what they really need.  Sometimes sure, but you either feed from the breast or supplement. 


That's just not true.  There are women who exclusively pump (usually because the baby won't latch, not because of preference) and don't need to supplement.  Heck, there are women who exclusively pump and have enough left over to donate.  

 

I'm also not sure what you mean by "unacceptable"?

 

Edited to add:  Whoops. Late here.  Carry on.

post #58 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenimBebek View Post

jesus christ.  i think its so much more work that its physically not possible for most woman which is why acting like its a totally plausible method of nursing is unfair to women.  hahaha.  ahhhhhhhh.


I just do not think this is true. I disagree with you all around about this issue.I think it is totally possible for most women. I dont think it should be promoted, but my point stands that most moms who are EPing are NOT underfeeding their children. I just think you are wrong about it.
post #59 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenimBebek View Post

I spoke with my own lactation consultant, who had heard of the "trend" and she asked her colleagues who agreed it would be very difficult and require constant pumping in the hours/days post birth to get a supply that could properly feed the baby without actually breastfeeding, based solely on the fact that a pump cannot get all the milk out like the baby can.  So, you get less each time WHILE sending the message to your breasts that they are making too much.  I also spoke with several LLL members and leaders.  No one is totally against USING a bottle.  But a mom who is trying to only pump and never put the baby to the breast is going to have a very hard time (unless she has over supply issues like you) making enough milk to feed a newborn.  Not to mention take care of herself, and take care of the baby, etc.  No one felt that promoting this as an option was a good idea, because of the risk it posed to the child for the exact reason my friend experienced.  

 

 

 

I'm not disagreeing that it isn't the first/best choice when it is a choice.  I know personally moms who have done it totally for "no reason" and it seemed like a huge pain in the ass.  I think the problem is that you are making blanket statements that are getting to some people; especially moms who have exclusively pumped and did a damn fine job of it.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post


I just do not think this is true. I disagree with you all around about this issue.I think it is totally possible for most women. I dont think it should be promoted, but my point stands that most moms who are EPing are NOT underfeeding their children. I just think you are wrong about it.


A when you (OP) make these sweeping statements about it not being possible to nourish a baby by EPing because you asked a friend who asked a friend, it's not the same as facts. 

 

post #60 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenimBebek View Post

jesus christ.  i think its so much more work that its physically not possible for most woman which is why acting like its a totally plausible method of nursing is unfair to women.  hahaha.  ahhhhhhhh.


Most women won't go through all the effort once they realize how much work it is. Most will just switch to formula. That doesn't mean it's not physically possible, just that many moms simply won't feel it's worth the effort. I also have never heard of a LLL leader downplay EP'ing as much as you are implying. Obviously it's easiest to just nurse at the breast and there are so many benefits to directly nursing baby. But it's not just one or two random women who decide to EP, there are lots of moms who do it -- sometimes just for a week or two, sometimes months, and sometimes even years. I read a post recently about a mom who EP'ed for 2 full years. I think that's AMAZING. And I don't know any LLL leader that wouldn't support that... no matter why the mother chose that method.

The problem is not that your friend chose to EP. The problem is that she didn't know (or didn't acknowledge) the normal amount & frequency of feeding. When you first started this thread, you said she was feeding the baby 12-16oz of milk a day. It doesn't matter what kind of milk that is or how it was obtained -- that's simply not enough for a baby! She needed to either pump more often & feed more often, or supplement with formula/donor milk, or switch totally to formula, or hire someone to be her baby's caretaker & do all the feeding, or whatever other choice would ensure someone could feed the child as much as he required. I just don't understand why you feel the problem is that she EP'ed, when in fact the problem is that she was starving her baby, not taking care of him properly, not bonding with her baby, etc. It has nothing to do with what she chose to feed her baby -- she either had severe PPD or complete lack of knowledge about infant nutrition or followed really really bad advice or had some kind of mental issue or something. This thread really upsets me. I'm just relieved the baby is getting fed properly now.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Birth and Beyond
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Pregnancy and Birth › Birth and Beyond › MAJOR ETHICAL DILEMMA, Please Help :)