MAJOR ETHICAL DILEMMA, Please Help :) - Page 4

[BenimBebek]

gotcha.  okay.  im not downplaying the incredibleness of mothers who have accomplished EP.  Definitely not.  I am constantly in awe of my working friends ability to pump constantly at work, etc.  I guess my issue is that somewhere along the road my friend who was already not educated about breastfeeding, except for the it was good for babies, was really poorly educated about how often she would really need to pump to keep up a supply for a newborn.  And maybe in my head I wanted to blame EP because its so incredibly difficult. 

No one is being negative for moms who EP successfully, who research and are doing it knowing how hard it will be.  Im just worried that people who hear about it will think its an easy option and then will end up with  FTT baby.  I guess thats my biggest concern.  But I see there are at least 3 people on here who really believe its a totally feasible option and that my friend just didnt do it well.  Cant agree more.  

Here's what I mean, I was at the grocery recently with my baby and the woman checking me out said that her daughter in law was pregnant and asked if i was breastfeeding.  "yes"  "yeah, mine isnt sure about it.  she doesnt want a baby stuck to her boobs all the time.  she wants a personal life, you know.  so she think she might just pump and bottle feed instead."  I just say, "oh, good for her."  but all i can think about it is that woman should definitely be taking that decision really seriously.  And it really reminded me of my friend.

[APToddlerMama]

Ease up already BB.  I am really glad that baby is being fed.  Your totally condescending attitude regarding not only EPing but the absolute requirement that all babies get breast milk is going to prevent this woman and everyone else you try to educate from learning anything about the benefits of breastfeeding and instead focus on how unreasonable and judgemental you are.

[BenimBebek]

no no, in real life im incredibly gentle and do not "educate" in general.  I just vent on here.  my method of sharing is just to parent the best way I can so others can see.  they can take it or leave it.  but in this situation i felt like i had to do something, i couldnt just watch this baby wither away for no good reason.  which is why i came here in the first place.  for ideas of how to proceed.  

but since then ive really become even more irritated with my friend and her comments about parenting.  i dont complain to her, I come here instead! 

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by BenimBebek 

gotcha.  okay.  im not downplaying the incredibleness of mothers who have accomplished EP.  Definitely not.  I am constantly in awe of my working friends ability to pump constantly at work, etc.  I guess my issue is that somewhere along the road my friend who was already not educated about breastfeeding, except for the it was good for babies, was really poorly educated about how often she would really need to pump to keep up a supply for a newborn.  And maybe in my head I wanted to blame EP because its so incredibly difficult. 

No one is being negative for moms who EP successfully, who research and are doing it knowing how hard it will be.  Im just worried that people who hear about it will think its an easy option and then will end up with  FTT baby.  I guess thats my biggest concern.  But I see there are at least 3 people on here who really believe its a totally feasible option and that my friend just didnt do it well.  Cant agree more.  

Here's what I mean, I was at the grocery recently with my baby and the woman checking me out said that her daughter in law was pregnant and asked if i was breastfeeding.  "yes"  "yeah, mine isnt sure about it.  she doesnt want a baby stuck to her boobs all the time.  she wants a personal life, you know.  so she think she might just pump and bottle feed instead."  I just say, "oh, good for her."  but all i can think about it is that woman should definitely be taking that decision really seriously.  And it really reminded me of my friend.

I get what you're saying, but the same could be true for any feeding choice. A mom who is straight-up BF'ing might not understand the frequency a baby needs to eat, and put the kiddo on a 4x/day schedule or something, which could lead to FTT. A mom who hasn't done her research might only give half of the recommended amount of formula, or try to save on formula by diluting it. And there was that news story about the vegan couple who fed their baby apple juice and soy milk... that doesn't mean that most vegan families are putting their kids in danger, you know? (Speaking as the mom of a vegan baby!) So it's not really about how someone chooses to feed their child, but whether or not they are educated about it and receiving proper advice.

[BenimBebek]

Judgment is how humans grow and become more educated.  Being judgmental, making judgment of the behaviors of others is exactly how all of us ended up on mothering.com.  We saw one way and JUDGED something wasn't right.

Arent you judging me by calling me judgmental?

I have my opinion you can have yours.  There is nothing unreasonable about me noticing that my friend starved her baby by trying to EP.  She did.  I watched it.  And I suspect there are several of other women out there who think they are doing a great job and are underfeeding their babies.  Not all of them, clearly no one on here because there are so many amazing EP moms, but in a less educated crowd, I'm sure there are other babies right now needlessly suffering because their mother is trying to EP without an support or help and knowing nothing about it, just because she heard of someone else who did it.

Its like no one bothers reading all the posts.  If you havent been involved since the beginning, you shouldn't comment now unless you take the time to actually read every single comment.  Because you're clearly out of the loop.

[BenimBebek]

Thats true.  I just think the risk is pretty high with pumping.  Only because the pump doesnt get as much as a baby would in the same amount of time.  So you end up having to pump so much more... and a new mom is much more likely to not know that then say, not be able to read a formula label.  you know what i mean?

[crunchy_mommy]

Originally Posted by BenimBebek 

Thats true.  I just think the risk is pretty high with pumping.  Only because the pump doesnt get as much as a baby would in the same amount of time.  So you end up having to pump so much more... and a new mom is much more likely to not know that then say, not be able to read a formula label.  you know what i mean?

Yeah, I think I see what you're getting at. I don't agree, I think people make all sorts of uneducated decisions & my gut says that most people who EP would be very educated about it due to the level of commitment it takes. But I see your point of view too. And I'm sure it's been really hard watching your friend handle motherhood like this.

[Tear78]

Originally Posted by BenimBebek 

Judgment is how humans grow and become more educated.  Being judgmental, making judgment of the behaviors of others is exactly how all of us ended up on mothering.com.

I came to MDC out of a need for a supportive and caring community as I struggled through a personal journey to motherhood. I know that this is a place where we need to be able to disagree, but I always try to do so in a supportive and caring way. I have noticed that people are much more likely to listen to a different point of view when it is presented in a respectful manner, and when they are not given the feeling of being judged by someone who is "right" and they are "wrong." It sounds like different points of view are being successfully considered on this thread, but I am saddened by the tone of the some of the posts. I venture that we all post because we care, so maybe it's possible to steer the thread back toward a community feel?
Edited by Tear78 - 10/20/11 at 6:32pm

[Youngfrankenstein]

Originally Posted by BenimBebek 
  Im just worried that people who hear about it will think its an easy option and then will end up with  FTT baby.  I guess thats my biggest concern.  But I see there are at least 3 people on here who really believe its a totally feasible option and that my friend just didnt do it well.  Cant agree more.  

I really do share this concern with you.  I think now you understand where some of us are coming from.  It rubs me the wrong way when someone says something isn't possible for "most people" when it clearly is.

I this this trend isn't great.  I agree that breastmilk is better than no breastmilk but I think the trend is blooming beyond any "usual" reason for not just breastfeeding. I know a mom who EPed for twins and it didn't last long because they didn't get breast time and she couldn't keep up with the demand. I felt bad because I think they got off to a rough start and rough birth and I think she was just to wiped out to consider trying to nurse them both.  Her next baby was a singleton and she nursed him for awhile.

[BenimBebek]

Yes!  You totally get me!  Thank you, thank you!  OKay, phew.  That was my exact worry.  That lots of women, instead of trying to understand breastfeeding or get comfortable with it, will believe that they can just avoid it and EP and will end up underfeeding their babies and giving up, just like my friend did.  Thats exactly my concern.  No comment on the moms who are doing it because they have to.  Certainly not.  More power to them.  I think pumping is incredibly taxing and I hated when I had to do it with my newborn because of low supply and trouble with latching.  The other thing that worries me if moms dont know how hard EP is, is that they wont work on latching with their newborn and later if constant pumping becomes tiresome or they realize how much time is involved (they have to go back to work etc.) they wont be able to get the baby back to the breast with out a lot of pain and stress.  :(

[lunabin]

Originally Posted by BenimBebek 

No no, I mean exclusively pumping.  I.E. no breast time.  I have spoken with multiple lactation consultants and LLL leaders about this issue.  Everyone I spoke to said the same thing, unless you have an oversupply problem, the average mother cannot pump enough to completely bottle feed breastmilk for a newborn.

yeh, its really hard to watch.  I think I am mad at her.  I guess I need to let go of it.  But my husband and I still feel, I dont know, upset by the whole thing.  :(

I'm going to completely disagree.  I had HUGE cracks in both nipples, saw 3 lactation consultants (4 if you include the one in the hospital), and started exclusively pumping by 5 weeks simply because I would cry in pain at every single feeding otherwise.  It took over 3months to heal and I'm left with a lot of scar tissue now anticipating DC#2.  But, by 4 or 5 months old, I had over 100oz of frozen milk and was pumping a solid 35+ oz a day!  It can be done, it's not impossible, and if you pump at every single feeding (at least for the first few weeks) your supply should hopefully keep up no problem.  

[lunabin]

Clearly this discussion has taken a mild detour...  But I think we can all agree that it's great that you noticed what was obviously a problem with your friend and are all relieved to see that things have improved.  I still disagree with your attitude on EPing.  

For some mothers, EPing IS the easier choice.  I don't think I was well educated on it at all, only because despite feverishly hunting the internet, there were virtually NO resources for it online and my lactation consultants didn't have any advice to give on it other than pump every time the baby feeds.  Even kellymom.com didn't have articles up at the time...  And it was very discouraging.  Not because it was difficult, but because of the attitude that I've seen on here where it's generally misunderstood and judged (mostly by mother's who never did it and know nothing about it).  

I was surrounded by midwives, lactation consultants, and stay at home mom's who all supported "natural" bf'ing...  and they never knew what to say about it.  Most just dished out unwanted and unhelpful advice, instead of support and empathy.  

BenimBebek, I do feel for you.  It must have been horrible (maybe still is) to see this friend make such choices.  I have a coworker now who is in many ways very similar - cries it out with a 4month old, already feeds solids, etc.  and because I (in many ways) disagree with her priorities, have generally distanced myself from our relationship.  It's hard to witness these kinds of people, but I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by pretending to be supportive.  And certainly, your friend seems closed to parenting advice at this point.  You may want to take some emotional distance, maybe try to not talk about the kids in such depth, or just take some space.  

[AlexisT]

Originally Posted by Youngfrankenstein 

I really do share this concern with you.  I think now you understand where some of us are coming from.  It rubs me the wrong way when someone says something isn't possible for "most people" when it clearly is.

I this this trend isn't great.  I agree that breastmilk is better than no breastmilk but I think the trend is blooming beyond any "usual" reason for not just breastfeeding. I know a mom who EPed for twins and it didn't last long because they didn't get breast time and she couldn't keep up with the demand. I felt bad because I think they got off to a rough start and rough birth and I think she was just to wiped out to consider trying to nurse them both.  Her next baby was a singleton and she nursed him for awhile.

I'm not sure it is possible for "most people"... the majority of people who start out pumping give up. The long term EPers are a minority, IME. For the record: I tried pumping for my dd when she wouldn't latch. I gave up because I got so little it didn't justify the result. I read some pumping groups and the attrition rate seemed high, though that rate may be overinflated by women like me who have multiple challenges and/or low supply. I do sometimes see people saying "You can just pump!" and it seems to me like anyone who would say that has never done it. It's a lot of dedication and in some ways, the worst of both worlds--you get the downsides of both and few of the positives, PLUS the stress of pumping. Obviously, baby gets the benefits of breastmilk, but from a logistical perspective, it's really hard and I think you need to be dedicated to manage it--not think that it's an easy way out. And the OP is right that a lot of women don't respond to the pump as well as to a baby.

[maztec]

I know this is an off topic response, but as someone who helps immigrants with Immigration and Customs Enforcement issues daily I have to speak up.

[M]y friend the nanny literally just moved to America on a student visa just a few months ago.  And is totally afraid of saying anything to anyone other than me, because she wasnt supposed to be nannying as a student visa doesnt permit "working."  I tried to tell her that just a few weeks, every couple of days, for a few hours isnt working, its more like helping and that the regular police are so not interested in that.  But foreigners can be very afraid!!

Student's are randomly investigated while on an F-1 visa.  While very few will ever get caught working, it is possible to be caught.  Getting caught has several horrible results that are not worth it:  fine to the employer (including criminal charges), deportation, bans from returning to the United States, and possibly more.  There is no such thing as "just a little" employment that is more like "helping".  Advising your friend of this puts her at even greater risk.  She has every right to be very afraid, as she has probably had the consequences drilled home to her.  If she wants to work as a nanny in the U.S., she should have entered as an Au Pair J-1, not as a student F-1.

Sorry to drag this up months later, but do you really want to be responsible for your friend being removed from the United States, her education interrupted, and her ability to return severely disrupted?

[BenimBebek]

she isnt working as an au pair.  just for a few weeks to help that family who could find a day care that would take their baby.  but luckily the whole thing was resolved, ironically, as a result of day care.  

[Astrogirl]

Originally Posted by BenimBebek 

Judgment is how humans grow and become more educated.  Being judgmental, making judgment of the behaviors of others is exactly how all of us ended up on mothering.com.  We saw one way and JUDGED something wasn't right.

Arent you judging me by calling me judgmental?

Speak for yourself.  I would say most women at MDC were just looking for like-minded people to share ideas with.  If you came to MDC as some sort of protective club where you can judge and be condescending, then I think you've come to the wrong place.  A few vocal people do it here, but its not received that kindly.

As for people calling you judgemental 1) I dont think they judged you, they were saying that the words you've been using are judgemental and 2) theres a difference between scorning other women because of their choices (that you may not know all the details of) and judging someone whos acting like a nasty asshole by name calling.

[MissLotus]

Well, anyhow - I'm glad to read this poor baby is gaining weight.  Do you know if they're stepped up feeding him at home? 

What I can't understand is how this baby's father just sat around scratching his butt while his child starved!!  If they're still starving him at home - even if it's a "risk" to their friendship, is your husband willing to talk to this guy plainly?

[starrlamia]

actually judgement isnt how humans grow, learning and being open minded are. Being judgemental denotes bias and arrogance. Having an opinion is not being judgemental, being judgemental is about looking down on others who do not share your opinion or do things you disagree with. It denotes a negativity.
 

Originally Posted by BenimBebek 

Judgment is how humans grow and become more educated.  Being judgmental, making judgment of the behaviors of others is exactly how all of us ended up on mothering.com.  We saw one way and JUDGED something wasn't right.

Arent you judging me by calling me judgmental?

I have my opinion you can have yours.  There is nothing unreasonable about me noticing that my friend starved her baby by trying to EP.  She did.  I watched it.  And I suspect there are several of other women out there who think they are doing a great job and are underfeeding their babies.  Not all of them, clearly no one on here because there are so many amazing EP moms, but in a less educated crowd, I'm sure there are other babies right now needlessly suffering because their mother is trying to EP without an support or help and knowing nothing about it, just because she heard of someone else who did it.

Its like no one bothers reading all the posts.  If you havent been involved since the beginning, you shouldn't comment now unless you take the time to actually read every single comment.  Because you're clearly out of the loop.

[BenimBebek]

I think if you read the whole thread you would realize you are coming very late to the discussion and we've moved way past such comments.

But I agree with you, which is why I was not being judgmental.  I was stating my opinion based off of what I witnessed.  I never once said, moms who EP are bad... or anything like that.  I said that I didnt think promoting it as an alternative to breastfeeding was safe, because it runs the risk of having something just like what I witnessed occurring.  A first time mom who instead of learning about breastfeeding decides she will just avoid it and pump and then she will experience many of the things my friend went through.

Please, if people are going to post, READ THE WHOLE THREAD.  Don't just jump in and attempt to make controversial comments.  It feels less like you care about addressing the purpose of the post and more like you enjoying fighting and making inflammatory posts.

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by BenimBebek 

I think if you read the whole thread you would realize you are coming very late to the discussion and we've moved way past such comments.

But I agree with you, which is why I was not being judgmental.  I was stating my opinion based off of what I witnessed.  I never once said, moms who EP are bad... or anything like that.  I said that I didnt think promoting it as an alternative to breastfeeding was safe, because it runs the risk of having something just like what I witnessed occurring.  A first time mom who instead of learning about breastfeeding decides she will just avoid it and pump and then she will experience many of the things my friend went through.

Please, if people are going to post, READ THE WHOLE THREAD.  Don't just jump in and attempt to make controversial comments.  It feels less like you care about addressing the purpose of the post and more like you enjoying fighting and making inflammatory posts.

I think you have some wrong ideas about how this process works. Just because you start a thread doesnt mean you get to have control over where it goes. I have seen you mention on multiple occasions that people need not comment unless they read the whole thread. I have seen you say OVER and OVER again to not address anything except for the purpose of the post, even though you were the one who CLEARLY started talking about EP. You dont get to start posting crappy, judgmental, inflamatory comments about groups of people and then pull the "Umm, unless youve read all the comments about and entirely different topic then you dont need to comment." Making huge generalizations about things like how people who are eping are underfeeding and how most mamas came to MDC through being judgmental is going to get you some controversial comments because what you said is controversial..

Got it. Your friend was underfeeding and is all screwed up. You gave updates and it seems like things are going to be way better now. Great. BUT, there are a whole bunch of things that you have said in the process that other people dont agree with and those people (including myself) are allowed to comment on them. I can go all the way back to your very first post and say how asinine I think it is that you called her husband weak because he believes whatever she says because she has a PHD if I want to. You have no control over what other people want to say about your posts. If you dont like how the thread is going, you can PM a mod and ask for it to be removed, but you cant just keep telling people what they are/are not allowed to post in your thread. You dont make the rules of how a forum works.

You came on to a forum full of moms being judgmental. You have assumed why we are all here (because we are all judgmental). You have ordered people around and told people how and when to post on this thread. You have not addressed about half of the comments about EP and instead accused people of "being inflammatory".

Rule number one: just because you post on a forum doesnt mean you get to make the rules about how other people post.
Rule number two: Just because someone has a different opinion than you doesnt mean they are picking a fight or being inflammatory. (but now I am, because Im tired of you bossing people around.)