Grimm's Fairy Tales and Young Children

[mommytimes2]

We are planning on enrolling our 4 year old DD in Waldorf school, and were told good things about the Grimm's Fairy Tales. We already bought the book actually, it is on its way. My question is, I have heard that some of the stories can be downright gruesome in their detail about violent situations. We interviewed with some Waldorf teachers last week who explained that they do read the stories to the children (in a monotone voice) so that they can experience the "good" and the "bad" of humanity--that it is within us all. I do understand this. But. My DD is so impressionable. I am concerned these scenes might be too much for her, because of her age. In the past, we wouldn't even read the word "hate" or "kill" in a book, but would say "didn't care for" or "hurt" instead and water it down like that. So, this will be different if we do read the stories in their entirety. Just curious what you all think, as I know the collection is popular in Waldorf. Do you read these stories as they were written to your LO's?

[annettemarie]

Any teacher worth his or her salt are going to know which stories are appropriate for which age. In my experience, Waldorf teachers are very selective and careful about which stories are read to small children and don't present some of the fairy tales until they are ready. Some Grimm's fairy tales are never read.

This article might be helpful:
http://www.waldorfinthehome.org/2006/07/selecting_fairy_tales.html

[mommytimes2]

Thanks for the link--I did recently read that article (it helped me choose the edition I purchased). I am sure you are right about the teachers choosing appropriate stories--I guess I was thrown off by what one of the teachers said, which was that some of the stories were dark, but they read them anyway. And then later I did some looking into it and found out just how dark they could be, I got to wondering! But it sounds like I just need to ask more questions to confirm what you are saying...you must be right. 

[JudiAU]

I think of them can good choices are some are not. We, too, are careful with our language and hopefully the teachers will be too.

Children's librarians and good children's bookstore owners (I've asked many) will say grimm's and fairy tales in general are not age appropriate. I wanted to read some stories because we don't do any media and DS (now 4) was confused by the stories people would talk about at school (usually Disney versions). If you want to expose your LO to either yourself, these were the two versions that I could tolerate, with a minimum of substitions Basic Fairy Tales  http://www.amazon.com/First-Book-Fairy-Tales/dp/0756621070  Generic art. http://www.amazon.com/Yummy-Eight-Favorite-Fairy-Tales/dp/0763644749/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307382903&sr=1-2 Yummy has amazing art that DS loves, but it could be really scary to some kids. That said, ther retellings are interesting and DS just loves it. It was a gift and I doubt I would have bought it.

[JudiAU]

Also there are LOTS of great, funny alternative fairy tales that make a good compliment to male dominated versions.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by mommytimes2 

Thanks for the link--I did recently read that article (it helped me choose the edition I purchased). I am sure you are right about the teachers choosing appropriate stories--I guess I was thrown off by what one of the teachers said, which was that some of the stories were dark, but they read them anyway. And then later I did some looking into it and found out just how dark they could be, I got to wondering! But it sounds like I just need to ask more questions to confirm what you are saying...you must be right. 

I hear what you're saying. I guess it depends on your definition of dark. After all, Goldilocks and the Three Bears (not Grimm, I know) can be dark, but little ones love it anyway.

[mommytimes2]

I hear you--DD has already heard Goldilocks (the Little Golden Book series very lighthearted version), and to me at least that story isn't too dark. I know the Grimm's original versions are going to be different from say Disney--which I think is a positive thing, more rich, etc. What caught my eye when I was researching which Grimm's edition to buy was apparently at least one story involves decapitation, and another (Cinderella maybe?) had someone thrown into a barrel with spikes in it and pulled around behind a horse, or something along those lines. Sorry, hope I didn't put anyone off by being too descriptive. I'll admit I was surprised, but it didn't keep me from buying it. Just wondered if anyone had any experiences they wanted to share. I am inclined to agree with you Annettemarie--I have a very hard time imagining that particular material showing up in say a preschool/kindergarten class.

[cyclamen]

I am just learning about Waldorf slowly, but I'd like to weigh in as a childhood reader of the Grimm's tales.  I had the Dover edition which is mildly expurgated, but I definitely remember the woman in the barrel with the spikes.  Anyhow, I carried that book with me everywhere for a good portion of my childhood (age 6?-14) and it is the only possession I have from that time in my life.  I often used stories from it to entertain younger children, even when I didn't have it on my person.  I could probably still tell you today the story of the little men in the house in the wood and the girl who swept snow to find strawberries.  The sister whose seven brothers were changed into birds and how she got them back.  The one about the little boy whose stepmother killed him, who came back as a bird to help his sister and bring justice (in the form of a millstone!) to his stepmother.

I remember many of these stories (and several other folktales that I collected in my heart) being tremendously important to me.  I knew many of them by heart, but my impression of the gorier parts was extremely hazy.  Returning to them as a mother, I'm actually a little shocked!  But as a child - yes, they were only as grim as I could handle.  What I loved best were the stories about brothers and sisters sticking together, no matter what transformation, misfortune, or clever obstacle that needed to be overcome.  I liked the stories about brave and clever boys and girls who were loyal and good.  I liked the stories about people transformed into animals, then transformed back!  I loved the one about mother hulda shaking the snow from her eiderdown.  I didn't even know what that meant, but I loved the way it sounded.  And that what it maybe was for me in the end.... I just loved the way the language sounded.

And beyond that, my mom also told me a good number of Korean folktales which are intense in their own way.  Probably even brutal from some perspectives.  But they are part of me and I love that.  And the Greek myths?  We read those too and they are astonishing in their pathos at times.  But again, I perceived none of this as a child.  And as I grew into adulthood, I remade and retold many of the storie as I got older.  And you know which ones eventually became the most important to me?  The gruesome ones about things that I never really understood as a child, but which were lodged in me and suddenly were salient to my experiences.  And the process of iterating these stories helped me to become free of many of the difficult experiences in my life.  They gave me a sense of narrative and context.  A feeling of alienation and belonging.  And they are all still in my heart.

So, all that said, my daughter is only 2 and I don't plan on reading the stories to her yet.  She prefers a simple spoken tale about the day's activities right now.  And while I want to nourish and protect her innocence, I think that in some ways, many of the old fairy tales are a way for children to think about morality deeply without losing their innocence.  So when she is a bit older?  Yes, I'll read (or perhaps retell!) some to her, and I'll leave the book lying out. 

edited for clarity

[mommytimes2]

Originally Posted by cyclamen 

I am just learning about Waldorf slowly, but I'd like to weigh in as a childhood reader of the Grimm's tales.  I had the Dover edition which is mildly expurgated, but I definitely remember the woman in the barrel with the spikes.  Anyhow, I carried that book with me everywhere for a good portion of my childhood (age 6?-14) and it is the only possession I have from that time in my life.  I often used stories from it to entertain younger children, even when I didn't have it on my person.  I could probably still tell you today the story of the little men in the house in the wood and the girl who swept snow to find strawberries.  The sister whose seven brothers were changed into birds and how she got them back.  The one about the little boy whose stepmother killed him, who came back as a bird to help his sister and bring justice (in the form of a millstone!) to his stepmother.

I remember many of these stories (and several other folktales that I collected in my heart) being tremendously important to me.  I knew many of them by heart, but my impression of the gorier parts was extremely hazy.  Returning to them as a mother, I'm actually a little shocked!  But as a child - yes, they were only as grim as I could handle.  What I loved best were the stories about brothers and sisters sticking together, no matter what transformation, misfortune, or clever obstacle that needed to be overcome.  I liked the stories about brave and clever boys and girls who were loyal and good.  I liked the stories about people transformed into animals, then transformed back!  I loved the one about mother hulda shaking the snow from her eiderdown.  I didn't even know what that meant, but I loved the way it sounded.  And that what it maybe was for me in the end.... I just loved the way the language sounded.

And beyond that, my mom also told me a good number of Korean folktales which are intense in their own way.  Probably even brutal from some perspectives.  But they are part of me and I love that.  And the Greek myths?  We read those too and they are astonishing in their pathos at times.  But again, I perceived none of this as a child.  And as I grew into adulthood, I remade and retold many of the storie as I got older.  And you know which ones eventually became the most important to me?  The gruesome ones about things that I never really understood as a child, but which were lodged in me and suddenly were salient to my experiences.  And the process of iterating these stories helped me to become free of many of the difficult experiences in my life.  They gave me a sense of narrative and context.  A feeling of alienation and belonging.  And they are all still in my heart.

So, all that said, my daughter is only 2 and I don't plan on reading the stories to her yet.  She prefers a simple spoken tale about the day's activities right now.  And while I want to nourish and protect her innocence, I think that in some ways, many of the old fairy tales are a way for children to think about morality deeply without losing their innocence.  So when she is a bit older?  Yes, I'll read (or perhaps retell!) some to her, and I'll leave the book lying out. 

edited for clarity

Wow, thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Reading your post makes me want to pick up the book right now and read it myself! The stories sound wonderful. I can't wait for my daughter to experience them!  We decided to send her to a home-based Waldorf preschool instead of kindergarten at this point, and her new "teacher" told us she had a list of appropriate stories from the book for her age. She was actually very concerned when I brought up that I had purchased Grimm's, but I reassured her I knew some of the stories might be too much for age 4. With that said, the stories sound awesome--so much more than the superficial princess books that are the rage today. Thank you again for sharing your inspiring experience with this book!
 

[cyclamen]

You are welcome, mommytimes2!  Thinking about it has made me want to pick the book up again, too.  I think I'm going sit and read a bit tonight.  :)

[zoebird]

DS is just about three, and our reading collection is limited. we do read curious george (not my favorite, because I don't "get" it), and we also just tell stories. we have a few golden books too (we're not keen on the punishment models there. LOL), but I also have some very light scandinavian folk tales that I use (mostly three billy goats gruff, which we started in with this past week), and some african myths. 

I spent some time this past weekend reading various myths (greek/roman, norse, and several from asia and africa that I have), as well as a "world" collection that I have that has some from the middle east, africa, south america, north america, asia, and europe. there aren't any australia/NZ ones, but I have copies of some anyway. :) I'm going through and looking at which ones have similar themes, which ones are appropriate for DS, and which ones i'll start to introduce over the year.

we also do a lot of just straight story-telling. it's usually based on something that we saw or did during the day -- and it's quite a nice process. It is a made-up story. Such as, today, we discovered these teeny, tiny hermit crabs that live in these crevices on the rocks on the beach. they are so tiny. And they are all in a row, stacked on top of each other, etc. very close quarters! So, i made up a story about how these creatures live and interact. I talked about the crab who went on a journey from one side of the rock to the other, meeting so many crabs along the way, and how they spoke in different accents, and different languages, and had different holidays, but that they all liked the same things: their homey shells, their friends, their side of the rock, their delicious foods, and basically how life is wonderful no matter which side of the rock you're on, and while people may seem different at first glance, we are all quite alike. he liked it a lot. :) i liked telling it.

And, for my own part, like the PP, I *loved* these various stories as a kid. truly, they are only as grim as you make them. I read one this weekend where a brave youth essentially burns Baba Yaga and her three daughters! Essentially, she comes into his house to count his spoons (goodness knows why. I can't figure it.) and he calls out "leave my spoon alone!" twice, his companions save him, but the third time they don't. Baba Yaga grabs him and takes him to her house in the woods. She tells her first, second, and third daughters to roast him for her supper, but each one fails. The yourth puts himself in the pan in such a way that she can't push it into the oven, and then says "fine, then show me how!" and when they fold up into the pan nicely, he shoves them into the oven! He does this for each daughter and then for baba yaga, and then goes home. his companions ask where he's been, he says that he defeated baba yaga. they marvel, and he says "of course! i am the brave youth."

I admit, I have no concept of this story. but it's not unlike hansel and gretal in a way. I mean, they end up killing the witch (who is their step mother, actually, depending upon the version you read, the step mother disappears and then the children return to their father's home). it's pretty extreme, btu for some reason, kids seem to be ok with that.

ah well. it's amazing how our minds work.

[mommytimes2]

Zoebird--Yes! We do a lot of made-up storytelling too...especially about women having babies. LOL DD is obsessed with women who are pregnant and/or in labor. So, she wants stories about princesses who's moms are going into labor. We recently had a DS, so this is still fresh on her mind...she is obviously still processing it, even though she wasn't "there" for the labor. I keep it pretty simple for her and talk about the mother being strong and confident, and not needing help from anyone else. Positive and light. I wonder if any of the Grimm's stories have pregnancies in them....I'll have to go do some reading...

I really liked your story, by the way! Nice!

[zoebird]

cool. :D

[Jane93]

I was given some of the "gorier" Grimms' stories as a child.  My mother has a masters in education and an important child psychologist she read in school had recommended such stories as being important vehicles for a child to come to grips with the horrible and the awful in real life.

I'll see if I can find out his name from her if further reading is of interest to you.  I know the psychologist himself was a Holocaust survivor, so he may be coming at this issue from a particular angle.

[Jane93]

From wikipedia, its Bruno Bettelheim (who's a bit controversial):

Among numerous other works, Bruno Bettelheim wrote The Uses of Enchantment, published in 1976. In this book he analyzed fairy tales in terms of Freudian psychology. The book won the U.S. Critic's Choice Prize for criticism in 1976 and the National Book Award in the category of Contemporary Thought in 1977. Bettelheim discussed the emotional and symbolic importance of fairy tales for children, including traditional tales at one time considered too dark, such as those collected and published by the Brothers Grimm. Bettelheim suggested that traditional fairy tales, with the darkness of abandonment, death, witches, and injuries, allowed children to grapple with their fears in remote, symbolic terms. If they could read and interpret these fairy tales in their own way, he believed, they would get a greater sense of meaning and purpose. Bettelheim thought that by engaging with these socially-evolved stories, children would go through emotional growth that would better prepare them for their own futures. 

[hildare]

Originally Posted by JudiAU 

I think of them can good choices are some are not. We, too, are careful with our language and hopefully the teachers will be too.

Children's librarians and good children's bookstore owners (I've asked many) will say grimm's and fairy tales in general are not age appropriate. I wanted to read some stories because we don't do any media and DS (now 4) was confused by the stories people would talk about at school (usually Disney versions). If you want to expose your LO to either yourself, these were the two versions that I could tolerate, with a minimum of substitions Basic Fairy Tales  http://www.amazon.com/First-Book-Fairy-Tales/dp/0756621070  Generic art. http://www.amazon.com/Yummy-Eight-Favorite-Fairy-Tales/dp/0763644749/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307382903&sr=1-2 Yummy has amazing art that DS loves, but it could be really scary to some kids. That said, ther retellings are interesting and DS just loves it. It was a gift and I doubt I would have bought it.

......... i disagree.  just because the subject matter is dark and frequently references tortures and deaths, it doesn't seem to be more than a curious child would enjoy.  i think children can be trusted a little more than we sometimes give them credit for understanding.  i've been a children's librarian and the Grimms always had a place on the shelves. 

however, i know very little about Waldorf education or principles, which is why i was browsing in this forum, so it is possible that they are inappropriate for this particular school of thought but i can't speak to that in particular.

eta, the work itself is so old it's in public domain and you can read most of it in entirety in gutenberg and elsewhere.....

[Greenmama2]

I'm sorry zoebird, did you mean there ARE NOT many Australian and NZ myths, or simply that you don't have many of them?

[Greenmama2]

Oh sorry reread. I see now that you meant that one collection didn't have any. I was mightily offended when I thought you might think there just weren't any lol.
Apologies for hijack.