Some questions about water safety

[loraxc]

As summer approaches, I find myself fretting about water safety and my kids. I am a strong swimmer myself and have no fear of the water for me personally, but I consider myself anxious about swimming and kids. This makes it hard for me to judge what is reasonable and what is me being too paranoid.

1. My older child (7) is a decent swimmer now and is capable of doing a couple of laps (she can do crawl of a sort, backstroke, and breaststroke of a sort) in water over her head (after which she would need to rest). I have taught her to flip onto her back and float if she gets tired in water over her head, and have seen her successfully do this. She can tread water but doesn't really like to. Still, I wonder if I am being foolish when I allow her to swim far out into (still) water that is way over her head. We have many lakes and natural swimming holes where we live, so I am talking about those, not pools. Thoughts? She has taken one round of lessons that concentrated entirely on strokes. She will take more this summer, but due to logistics, not till August.

2. My younger child (3y4m) cannot swim at all and does not like to get his head and face wet. Would it be a good idea to inititate swimming lessons with the goal of teaching him how to recover should he fall in, or is he still too young? I worry it might breed overconfidence.

3. I wonder if anyone who knows could give me some brief info on how to safely retrieve a child in distress. I have no lifeguard training but am a strong swimmer, as I said. I know this is no substitute for a course, but it would make me feel better to know some basics. Eg, how can one safely bring a nonswimmer to safety? If I see a child struggling in water over my head and there are no lifeguards present, what should I do?

*edited due to concerns about privacy, as this thread was featured/promoted*
Edited by loraxc - 6/13/11 at 7:16pm

[Super~Single~Mama]

YES to swim lessons for the 3yo.  Not too young - my 2yo will be starting in July. 

If you need to get your 7yo out of the water, (I used to be a lifeguard) use side stroke, and your top arm should go under her arm and diagonal across her chest - hold her head out of the water, and use sidestroke to swim to shore.  It's not super hard, but if you'r always on lakes and such, and concerned, get them both lifejackets. 

I did lifeguard training on a lake, and we always always always had one of those lifeguard tubes slung over our shoulders when we swam, just in case we got tired, so that we could rest.  A lifejacket is even better, but one of those tubes would be good too.

[loraxc]

They do have lifejackets and I have the younger one wear his if we are doing anything more than wading in natural water bodies. I do not make him wear it in the pool, where I stay in arm's length (we go to a pool with zero entry). The older one does not want to wear hers when swimming, though, which I understand, since she CAN swim. However, if we go to the ocean (which isn't often) I plan to make her wear her vest. She is not a strong child and can be overconfident.

Side stroke makes sense.

[Super~Single~Mama]

This:

Still, I wonder if I am being foolish when I allow her to swim far out into (still) water that is way over her head. We have many lakes and natural swimming holes where we live, so I am talking about those, not pools

Is what made me think the oldest should be wearing a lifejacket in lakes.  Not pools, especially if they are lifeguarded.  I would not allow my children in a pool that did not have a lifeguard on duty however, unless I was with them and keeping an eye on them. 

This:

She is not a strong child and can be overconfident.

makes me even MORE convinced she should have a flotation device with her in a lake.  Particularly since the water is not clear, its actually VERY hard to see in a lake if a child goes underwater (or anyone really - but we're talking about a child).  If she really won't wear a lifejacket get her one of the lifeguard buoys and have her take that with her.  When I was doing lifeguard training we often stopped to rest on them. Like this one:  http://www.swimoutlet.com/product_p/23125.htm?color=212

[DahliaRW]

IMO, no one should be swimming, shallow or deep, without a buddy with them.  That way if the person swimming gets into trouble the person swimming with them can alert the life guard or adult in charge or someone else around who can help.  I personally would not let my child out of arms reach in a natural body of water, without a lifeguard, unless he/she is with a swim buddy.  And in your case, if you need to go rescue your 7yo, who is going to keep the 3yo safe while you're distracted?

And definitely swim lessons for the 3yo. With a program that emphasizes water safety (how to find the edge if you accidentally fall in, how to get into a backfloat if you fall in, etc.)

[loraxc]

Oh, I don't take both kids swimming just with me. I should have made that clear. If we have them both in the water, my husband is also there. However, once they can both swim well I expect to relax this rule.

I am not sure what I think about the buddy thing. I have never made a habit of swimming with someone else right next to me myself. I am of course THERE, but I allow DD to swim well out of arm's reach, certainly--probably, I don't know, 10 or 20 or so feet? I watch her like a hawk, of course.

On further thought, I think what I would like to do is know how to assess how safe someone is in the water. I don't love the idea of making her stay in arm's reach like I did when she was a nonswimmer. It takes away from her accomplishments, and quite honestly I think it is a bit of overkill. Maybe there are some tests I can give her or more things I can teach her? She really loves to swim and is very open to instruction. It's true that she is not the strongest kid, but as I say she has shown that she does not panic when tired and not close to shore--she turns on her back and floats without freaking out at all.
Edited by loraxc - 6/7/11 at 4:11pm

[Super~Single~Mama]

http://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/

That right there is a GREAT article on how to recognize drowning.  It doesn't look like drowning, and is pretty often very silent. 

As for the buddy system, I think its excellent.  You don't need to be within arms reach, but we practiced it even in lifeguard training, b/c we were in a lake, and didn't want anyone to go under unnoticed.  Even very strong experienced swimmers can get tired and drown - I wouldn't do un guarded lakes without a life vest or a floaty of some sort.  Not with a 7yo that gets overconfident - I think thats pretty unsafe.

[loraxc]

You don't need to be within arms reach, but we practiced it even in lifeguard training, b/c we were in a lake, and didn't want anyone to go under unnoticed

So if not within arm's reach, how far? I always swim with her and near her, but as I said, I don't stay right next to her. 5 feet? 10? 20?

I have seen that article, thanks.

I guess....I don't QUITE see how a competent swimmer within 30-50 feet of shore (we certainly aren't going out farther than that) would really get tired and drown in still water, unless something strange and drastic happened. Why? How? If I suddenly got tired in this situation, I would tread water, backfloat, or there's always the dead man's float I was taught in swim lessons. Then I would head to shore. How tired could I suddenly get with shore that close? If I were swimming way out into the middle of a lake, or in a rough ocean or someplace with a current, of course, that's very different.

Again, with swimming, I have my fear/anxiety on one hand and my generally fairly relaxed parenting on the other. So I find it hard. I want my kids to love to swim and feel at home in the water like I do; I don't want them to think they are liable to suddenly drown at any moment in still water even after becoming good swimmers, because I think that attitude actually keeps people out of the water and reduces their desire to improve their skills and confidence. I notice I am MUCH more paranoid and watchful in the water than 90% of my friends who are parents, so in my peer group, I am far at one end of the spectrum already.
Edited by loraxc - 6/13/11 at 7:14pm

[insidevoice]

I grew up swimming in lakes and in the ocean.  I then became a lifeguard and WSI as a young adult and adult. Lakes and other natural bodies of water are entirely different settings than a pool, a person can disappear into the murk very quickly.  Drowning can look like play initially, or it can be very very quiet.  

I will share  our family rules with you- they work for my comfort level, but that also hinges on my being a very strong swimmer who is pretty confident about being able to effect rescue in some pretty tough conditions. 

1. Kids who don't swim well use a PFD unless they are in arms. (This is my two little guys, they are 1.5 and nearly 3.)

2. My daughter (age 9) is not allowed past chest level without a buddy, and both she and the buddy have to have proven themselves to be strong swimmers. (A 500 yard swim (accompanied) and 10 minute water tread test is part of our annual water readiness testing for her.) She also has to inform me when she wants to go out deeper and can only do so when there is another adult with us to watch the littles so I can focus entirely on the bigger kids in deeper water.  They don't always want me right there, but I still will have eyes on them the whole time and will keep them within a distance I can comfortably cover with some speed.  I know the bodies of water in which we swim, and I won't let her go much deeper than about 10- 15 feet without me right being right there (that's the limit of depth I am comfortable diving to to effect rescue.  For those who don't swim often, this will be much more shallow- anything beyond 6 feet tends to begin to hurt your ears and can be very hard to reach without a lot of practice.)

3. If the water has a current (ocean, or a lake with strong underwater currents) I am more strict about her being closer to me or she can elect to wear a pfd. 

4. At any depth she's swimming in on her own, she has to be able to prove to me that she can descend to the bottom (pencil dive) and push herself back up to the surface without much difficulty. 

5. I have a whistle with me.  If it is blown they have to immediately get out of the water and sit on the shore.  Even my 1.5 year old has this mastered this year.  

In pools, I don't encourage PFDs. Even with my youngest, I want him to learn what happens when he falls into the water face first.  I want him to learn to stand back up instead of being passive and being floated to the top. 

Now, all of that is to say that I am probably more strict than many parents are, but I will also allow a great deal of freedom as my child advances in skill level.  My daughter passed her level 5 swim test last year, and is working towards level 6 at this point.  Most kids her age are at level 3/4.  You can find the levels here http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/uploadedFiles/Parks_Rec_Waterfront/Level_3__-General/AmericanRedCrossSwimLevelRequirements.pdf and think about where your child falls as you assess what you are comfortable with and what you might want to work towards as skills. 

I come from a family of competitive swimmers, and my children grow up in water from the time they can crawl.  DH does not swim as well.  He does not take the kids swimming alone, and certainly isn't going to be the one helping our oldest.  He can help the littles as they are still wading and playing only in shallow water.  If he did take my daughter swimming alone, she would not be allowed out as far as she is when I am with her. 

[Super~Single~Mama]

insidevoice - those are some AWESOME rules.  I'm C&P'ing them for own future use. 

They seem totally reasonable, and kids can have TONS of fun in water thats just up to their chest.  I'm also a very strong swimmer, and have had my lifeguard/WSI/CPRPR although they have all expired.  As ds gets older I might end up getting the certs back to stay in the loop in changes in the "rules" (like now CPR doesn't do breaths except in certain situations, mostly they say to just do compressions if there is no heartbeat).

[EmilyZ25]

i agree about the buddy system - I was a lifeguard in highschool and so many times I would see kids swimming alone that would get tired and need help. its great that your 7yo can swim, so you don't need to be in arms reach all the time, but having someone else there to be aware is always good.

you can also definitely start swimming lessons for your 3yo.

[loraxc]

Thank you--that was super helpful. I am going to test her to see how far she can go (I know she can do at least two laps because she passed the swim test to use the diving boards at our pool, which requires that) and see how long she can tread water. I LOVE the whistle idea. I actually just bought two whistles to be used in (nonswimming!) situations where I let her range out of sight in woods and wild areas.

4. At any depth she's swimming in on her own, she has to be able to prove to me that she can descend to the bottom (pencil dive) and push herself back up to the surface without much difficulty.

By this, you mean dive down and touch the bottom and ascend? I know she can do this in about 7 feet (I guess--average deep end). We have one of those balls you retrieve off the bottom. That's in the pool, though.

I guess the issue with DD is that she really enjoys swimming in water over her head. Her personality is such that she enjoys pushing herself. I have a hard time keeping her in areas where she can stand comfortably.

I looked at those levels and I guess she is about a level 3, maybe 4, except that her technical stroke knowledge/stroke technique is not as good as the level 4 list.

[loraxc]

Any thoughts on skills I could practice to improve my own efficacy in a water safety emergency? Maybe diving to retrieve weights? FWIW, my husband actually had lifeguard training, but it's 20 years old. I find myself nervous in group water situations a lot (it's other people's kids who are freaking me out) and would feel better if I felt I had a little more know-how.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by loraxc 

Any thoughts on skills I could practice to improve my own efficacy in a water safety emergency? Maybe diving to retrieve weights? FWIW, my husband actually had lifeguard training, but it's 20 years old. I find myself nervous in group water situations a lot (it's other people's kids who are freaking me out) and would feel better if I felt I had a little more know-how.

take a lifeguarding course?  They aren't terribly long, are often offered on weekends, and are great.  You certainly wouldn't need to take the certification test if you didn't want to, but you could.  Your DH could also brush up if he's interested.

I guess the issue with DD is that she really enjoys swimming in water over her head. Her personality is such that she enjoys pushing herself. I have a hard time keeping her in areas where she can stand comfortably.

Not listening around water means no swimming for me.  Seriously.  I will NOT allow non listening children into the water when I'm in charge.  It's a BIG no-no.  Water is dangerous, and if there isn't someone entirely focused on the water, kids need to listen to the adult in charge, and do what they say.  If she was at my beach, and wouldn't listen to me telling her to stay where she could stand, she'd be out of the water for 30minutes.  Then, one more chance, if she still couldn't listen, she'd be done for the day.  I've even done that at crowded pools before - you don't listen, you're out.

Harsh I know, and I'll probably get flamed for it, but water is a non-negotiable thing.

[insidevoice]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

take a lifeguarding course?  They aren't terribly long, are often offered on weekends, and are great.  You certainly wouldn't need to take the certification test if you didn't want to, but you could.  Your DH could also brush up if he's interested.

Not listening around water means no swimming for me.  Seriously.  I will NOT allow non listening children into the water when I'm in charge.  It's a BIG no-no.  Water is dangerous, and if there isn't someone entirely focused on the water, kids need to listen to the adult in charge, and do what they say.  If she was at my beach, and wouldn't listen to me telling her to stay where she could stand, she'd be out of the water for 30minutes.  Then, one more chance, if she still couldn't listen, she'd be done for the day.  I've even done that at crowded pools before - you don't listen, you're out.

Harsh I know, and I'll probably get flamed for it, but water is a non-negotiable thing.

I agree completely on both points. I think the lifeguarding course is just a good idea for anyone who will be supervising kids around water.  Also, it's not too hard to rescue kids compared to, say, a 350 lb muscle-bound guy (a 350 lb chunky guy isn't too bad though- they float better!)   Really though, kids are pretty light and maneuverable barring neck/back injuries so you could really work up some confidence there. 

As for being harsh around water- I'm very much the same way.  Water is a totally non-negotiable thing.  I will be the first to sit a kid out on a bench for an infraction and I will be the first to send them home for the day.  I'd rather they be upset and think I am mean than that I have to rescue them after they are in trouble.  I spent a lot of years teaching lessons and managing pools, and I always told my employees to err on the side of caution.  

[insidevoice]

Originally Posted by loraxc 

Thank you--that was super helpful. I am going to test her to see how far she can go (I know she can do at least two laps because she passed the swim test to use the diving boards at our pool, which requires that) and see how long she can tread water. I LOVE the whistle idea. I actually just bought two whistles to be used in (nonswimming!) situations where I let her range out of sight in woods and wild areas.

4. At any depth she's swimming in on her own, she has to be able to prove to me that she can descend to the bottom (pencil dive) and push herself back up to the surface without much difficulty.

By this, you mean dive down and touch the bottom and ascend? I know she can do this in about 7 feet (I guess--average deep end). We have one of those balls you retrieve off the bottom. That's in the pool, though.

I guess the issue with DD is that she really enjoys swimming in water over her head. Her personality is such that she enjoys pushing herself. I have a hard time keeping her in areas where she can stand comfortably.

I looked at those levels and I guess she is about a level 3, maybe 4, except that her technical stroke knowledge/stroke technique is not as good as the level 4 list.
 

A pencil dive is when they go down feet first.  It's what the bobbing skill evolves into as they get more advanced.  

It sounds like you have a kid who loves the water and wants a challenge- I would encourage her to perfect some strokes if she wants a challenge and make sure she knows that boundaries you set are completely non-negotiable in terms of depth.  She can have as much fun in water up to her chest as she can in water over her head, so her desire for more is simply testing your limits. 

[loraxc]

Oh, let me clarify. That was poorly written. It's not that she disobeys me--if I tell her to come in, she will. She'll just complain, pester, ask again, ask again, etc. Learning to swim was a triumph that did not necessarily come easily for her and she is very excited about it. She isn't a terribly athletic child and this is the first sport I've seen her really gravitate to. It's also difficult because as I say, I am by far the most uptight parent around water of anyone we hang around with. She swims better than many children we are around who are kept on a much longer leash. Also, I live in a part of the country where there is a culture of laxity around water, IMO.

I don't think I could commit to a lifeguarding course. I looked into it, but it doesn't seem feasible to me at this time.
Edited by loraxc - 6/13/11 at 7:15pm

[Daffodil]

Originally Posted by loraxc 

I guess....I don't QUITE see how a competent swimmer within 30-50 feet of shore (we certainly aren't going out farther than that) would really get tired and drown in still water, unless something strange and drastic happened. Why? How?

I was interested in this thread because I have similar questions about what's safe for my daughter.  And the above is what I was really hoping to see someone address.  Is there any reason to think a competent swimmer in that situation could actually drown?  Is getting tired the only real risk, or can people drown from getting leg cramps, or from other things I may never have thought of?  

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by loraxc 

Oh, let me clarify. That was poorly written. It's not that she disobeys me--if I tell her to come in, she will. She'll just complain, pester, ask again, ask again, etc. Learning to swim was a triumph that did not necessarily come easily for her and she is very excited about it. She isn't a terribly athletic child and this is the first sport I've seen her really gravitate to. It's also difficult because as I say, I am by far the most uptight parent around water of anyone we hang around with. She swims better than many children we are around who are kept on a much longer leash. Also, I live in a part of the country where there is a culture of laxity around water, IMO. It's hot, everyone gets in the water, many people can't swim, and yet people don't take it seriously. Don't get me started on the summer camp DD attended where they took the kids on a swimming field trip to an unlifeguarded water body without bringing a lifeguard (DH had to take off work and go along--there was no way I'd let her go otherwise).
 

Yeah, that wouldn't work for me either.  I don't even let my ds tantrum at the playground or complain at the playground without going home - in the water, which is far more dangerous than a neighborhood playground its non-negotiable.  I say get a little more firm with the boudnaries, and let her know what the consequences will be if she complains, doesn't listen, argues, begs, whatever - and then follow through.  A few days of that, and she'd likely be cured of complaining.  Following through is hard, especially when its hot out, but it doesn't really matter what anyone else is letting their children do - it matters what you are letting your children do.

I understand not being able to commit to a class, thats fine, but if you aren't trained in rescues you probably should not let her out further than she can touch without some sort of flotation device that she can use if she needs to self-rescue.
 

Originally Posted by Daffodil 

I was interested in this thread because I have similar questions about what's safe for my daughter.  And the above is what I was really hoping to see someone address.  Is there any reason to think a competent swimmer in that situation could actually drown?  Is getting tired the only real risk, or can people drown from getting leg cramps, or from other things I may never have thought of?  

Yes, there are many reasons people drown - its just hard to know why b/c after they drown we can't exactly ask why or how it happened, yk?  I've had to rescue a good swimmer (had passed the test for the deep end at 6yo) from 4 feet of water.  She's probably about 14 or 15 now, and completely fine, but I did have to go in after her, in part of the pool that she could STAND in.

In murky lake water where you can't actually see the bottom, and where you might not be able to see a child on the bottom, is not a place to let a child just swim out as far as they want.

[insidevoice]

Originally Posted by Daffodil 

I was interested in this thread because I have similar questions about what's safe for my daughter.  And the above is what I was really hoping to see someone address.  Is there any reason to think a competent swimmer in that situation could actually drown?  Is getting tired the only real risk, or can people drown from getting leg cramps, or from other things I may never have thought of?  

Absolutely.  Fatigue, panic, a snag on the bottom, catching a breath at the wrong moment being hit by a splash of water when it isn't expected...  any number of things can happen.  Most often it is fatigue leading to panic that will get someone in trouble. 

While it may seem like common sense simply to move to shallower water, by the time someone is in trouble, they aren't likely to think of that as their body has moved on from rational thought to survival- this is the point at which their face will slowly sink below the surface and come back up for a moment before going down again- there is minimal splashing at this point as their instinct has taken over and every ounce of energy is going to getting their face to the surface for that moment to breathe.  They can't rationally think about swimming a few feet to get to where they put their feet down on the bottom and stand.  It's also the most common type of rescue I've done. Once someone else is right there and supporting them so they can breathe, they will usually be able to think through stepping down and standing if they are instructed to do so.