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Someone Please Fill Me In On Intactivism? - Page 4

post #61 of 96
Can you link that?
post #62 of 96

Good Morning! I was badly cut at birth and suffered from a tight skin with sex to a 30 degree bend in my erect shaft it was SOOOO tight. You see there is no way to tell how much is a right amount to remove at birth-it's not fully matured and as we all know-the Male penis comes in all sizes and shapes when flacid and  can engorge to many different lengths and girths. But not to cut your sons will have a great affect on them in that the cut rate is dropping and so the future males in the the USA will be "whole". As for those that are cut, well there are very good methods that allow a male to become whole again and protect his glans. I have 100% restored, I used a newer method called RTM, Reverse Taping Method. I studied it, it's free and easy to use, and give it away freely. Many restoring Males now have heard of it, and those turning from teh idea of tugging and all the are seeing pretty amazing results. Google it (Reverse Taping Method), and you'll a dabate between new and old school restoreres. There are many ways but I choose to create a totally new and very effective methof MATTOC has taken the fight to the old school for RTM-he has, as many others are, seen great progress in less than a year. The older methods will work but take years, I went from almost no skin to complete coverage very easily in just under a "year"! My self image is "whole" and I have resolve a lot of anger towards my parents, one who was in medicine! The other HUGE plus is that altho you can never get back the 75% +/- of the specialized sexual nerves in the removed 4skin, you can keep the glans covered and the glans do regain a lot of sensitivity, in other words at 54yo, I'm having the best and most fullfilling sex I have ever "shared". I say shared because the gals I have been with that have never been with an intact male, (and mechanically-I'm fully intact), can not beleive how gentle a glide is from the skin of an intact male-no grinding. (The penis moves with-in it's own "Skin Tube") But a Male can re-gain his Whole Appearrance and a lot of sensation if he wants to.

 

As far as the son you have cut-guard him. Don't be a worry wort but have that "invisible hand" there to be a source of loving information for "all" your children about why Johnny is bare-glanned should teasing or just normal interest arrises. And yes, when he is able to restore, 15-16 is not too young-help him find the method that he can stick with and he'll fool the doctors in a few year too-My GP can not believe I "was" cut-she is totally against cutting and has laid witness to my very amazing transformation, in body and most importantly, in Mind and Soul. And my European friends, Male and Female are astonished and actually proud of me for "undoing" such a barbaric act. 1 year to fix a 15 minute mutilation! Good things to you_Steph.  AND anyone interested in their boyfriends or husbands that are wanting to be whole-feel free to ask me about it-I have a pretty good knowledge of restoration altho I am not a doctor, I have done with RTM what has taken those before me 4-5-6-7 years to acheive in their restoration adventure. I based my RTM method on "Tissue Expansion",..., google it. it works and it's free.

 

Oh one other thing-I really do not buy into look like your father points, but if a father is cut and does not cut his sons-well the father might develop some loss issues more than the sons wondering where dad's went to. Fathers not cutting their sons would do well to restore-I always had this feeling of loss and robbery, but never so much than when I lived in Germany and I was around uncut males 24/7 and I didn't cut my son-it really hit home to me what was done without my concent when I was born-that Loss of self empowerment is a very real thing whether a Male wants to talk about it and face it or not. All you have to do is read on the restoration sights from Males' profiles and you'll see just how big of a deal this really is to the Male. But  I could see issues rising up in a very loving yet cut father seeing his sons being able to have a very happy and normal male life. One he was robbed of.

 

LOL! OH- and teh rimes that Males compare are many-it's normal and in the Army, living in open barracks it's nothing to have a zinger thrown your way about just about anything-evern the "boyz". We're Males, not monks and the animal will come out in friendly teasing as we get older and more secure in our selves. It's not due to any sexual orientation-it's a brotherhood of "Male" that I have been very lcky to have experienced, common in the military mind. I'm Hetero and yet can see the animal, it's teh shyness of many that has made the USE the only cutting nation in the world, no matter what the child's religious background-they'll cut if they can. It's HUGE $$$$ for the hospital and cosmetic cos! (yah-look up Human Fybroblasts from foreskin-pretty sick. We're actually farming our newborn sons!)http://nocircumcision.blogspot.com/2011/06/human-foreskins-are-big-business-for.html 


Edited by Whole Again - 6/14/11 at 5:47am
post #63 of 96
Thread Starter 

I feel bad for my son. He's been having problems the last few days due to his circ. I really regret getting him circumcised now. His pediatrician didn't do a good job and the skin is pulling and hurting him. greensad.gif

post #64 of 96

Oh no! Poor little guy.

 

That is like my DH where I already mentioned his was done too tight and he has issues with sort of limited umm...motility? Lets say he can't do some positions b/c it hurts him.

post #65 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

Oh no! Poor little guy.

 

That is like my DH where I already mentioned his was done too tight and he has issues with sort of limited umm...motility? Lets say he can't do some positions b/c it hurts him.


Yeah. He's been visiting my mom for a few weeks and when I was telling him goodnight, she got on the phone and told me he's been having pain with it. I wish I could reverse it. And now I'm DEFINITELY not going to do it if I have another son. Even my ex regrets getting him circumcised and when my son was born, he wouldnt have it any other way than to have him circumcised.

post #66 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by dashley111 View Post

Comments like that make conversations like these arguments instead of conversations.  We are all grown ups who live in a world where we logically know people have differing points of view- being adult enough to get past those things is important in forming relationships and bonds with people we consider our support group- including people on this board.

 

I would never, ever want somebody to feel as though their opinion or feelings were not welcome here.  Our goal should be to be supportive to each other regardless of differing opinions- using crude terms and being rude wont make some people feel welcome.

 

I'm just stating what I noticed- this particular forum is biased one way, if you feel like you want to be educated on both points of view going elsewhere is a better option. 



I do agree with you completely that we dont want anyone to feel attacked or unwelcome that may have a different point of view. However, there were no crude terms used. "Genital Mutilation," is exactly what circumcision is. I dont know how anyone could argue that it's not. You take a baby's penis and cut part of it off and you think that it's not mutilation? What about the tribes I'm sure we've all heard about that practice female genital mutilation, also called female circumcision? Many think of that as a human rights violation, but apparently boys can handle it and girls cant?

 

Penn & Teller have a show called B.S. (you know what that stands for) where they take controversial topics and call B.S. on them, using scientific and logical information. They talk to experts, do all the research, and then present it. If you can handle some swear words, I HIGHLY suggest watching it. Their episode on circumcision convinced me not to circumcize my son (along with the fact that his dad is also intact.) If you have netflix, some seasons are on watch instantly. The circ episode is in one of the earlier seasons, I'm having a hard time remembering right now.

 

But one argument that stands out that they make is this: Imagine if circumcision had never happened, and was not the norm. Imagine if nobody ever practiced it and we didnt even have a name for it or anything. What would we do to the person who would do that to a baby? If it was unheard of to chop part of a baby's penis off, then somebody did it, would that person be prosecuted for their horrible crime? I certainly hope so.

 

The facts are that intact is normal and natural, does not cause more disease or infection or anything, and it's not gross. Teach your son how to clean himself and you've got no problems. It is a purely cosmetic procedure that we force upon those who cannot consent. I would not want to explain to my son that I let someone cut his foreskin off because I myself was worried that he might someday be teased for being completely normal. More and more people in the US are now keeping their sons intact, so it's not 100% certain that he will be the odd one out in his peer group.

 

The locker room issue? Your son can remind any circumcized boy who teases him that the other boy is missing part of his penis. Not everyone actually realizes that that is what circumcision entails, as made obvious in the B.S. show mentioned above. And as someone who's experienced intact vs. circ, I can say intact is WAY better.

 

 

 

post #67 of 96

Well, whatever you choose, just know that the "norm" for our children's generation is likely to be uncircumcised (at least here in Washington it is), so don't let "fitting in" be a reason....nor how girls will respond, because I'm sure they will see a lot more in tact penises than we have!  Not saying that I've seen a lot of penises, LOL. 

 

My feeling is simply, well, they're born with it so why exactly are we getting rid of it?  It seems like an outdated practice.  I don't care if you circumcise your boys or not, that is up to you all and I feel your pain in choosing.  I do like the idea of letting them decide.  But, really, I can't imagine a grown man actually ASKING someone to cut off part of his favorite body part!  thumbsup.gif  Haha. In all seriousness, go with your gut.

 

I completely understand because I hadn't realized how many things I grew up "knowing" and completely took for granted...like, I knew I was going to have an epidural, no question, because my mom did, and she was the only person I had asked about a birth story.  She even had a planned c-section for my birth, out of convenience.  It all seemed normal to me, but then I started talking to more people and realized other options and how natural childbirth is, and how we (as a society) have kind of put that on the back-burner and then I came up with my own take on it.  Needless to say, I ended up with a natural birth and am considering *SHOCK* a home birth this time around.  Just the same, when I thought we were going to have a boy, it seemed perfectly normal and natural to have a circumcision, because, well, that's what was the norm for my generation.  No question.  Then, I thought about it a little more, and realized I felt differently about it. 

 

I suppose the only other argument I have against it is a lot like getting a haircut, it's way easier to take off too little than to take off too much.  peace.gif

post #68 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by IwannaBanRN View Post

 And now I'm DEFINITELY not going to do it if I have another son. Even my ex regrets getting him circumcised and when my son was born, he wouldnt have it any other way than to have him circumcised.



clap.gif     bow2.gif    flowersforyou.gif      thumbsup.gif

 

Can I just say how awesome I think you are?  You have been so open to learning new things and changing your mind.  A lot of people can't do that, especially if they have already circumcised a child.  And no wonder, it's self-preservation to cover your eyes and ears and sing "lalalalala, I can't hear you!" They'd rather not know and go on blissfully ignorant- but not you!  I am so proud of you and happy for any future boys you have.

 

As for your son's pain, can you go over to the Case Against Circumcision forum and post about what's happening?  They have lots of knowledge about circ complications.  Or you could post in Marilyn Milos' forum and ask her about it, she is an anti-circ nurse.  Everybody in either of those forums will be really happy to hear you have decided to keep future sons intact.

 

 

post #69 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lula's Mom View Post



clap.gif     bow2.gif    flowersforyou.gif      thumbsup.gif

 

Can I just say how awesome I think you are?  You have been so open to learning new things and changing your mind.  A lot of people can't do that, especially if they have already circumcised a child.  And no wonder, it's self-preservation to cover your eyes and ears and sing "lalalalala, I can't hear you!" They'd rather not know and go on blissfully ignorant- but not you!  I am so proud of you and happy for any future boys you have.

 

As for your son's pain, can you go over to the Case Against Circumcision forum and post about what's happening?  They have lots of knowledge about circ complications.  Or you could post in Marilyn Milos' forum and ask her about it, she is an anti-circ nurse.  Everybody in either of those forums will be really happy to hear you have decided to keep future sons intact.

 

 


Thank you. Sheepish.gif You know, I don't really think that any parent with a closed mind can be receptive to much of anything that will actually benefit their child. It doesn't make sense. Unfortunately, at my son's expense, I learned a lesson with trial and error. Seeing him in pain, has definitely turned me off to risking another son going through that. I am starting to wonder if this is why he had such trouble potty training. Parenting is about being open-minded and non-judgmental for the benefit of our children. If we don't listen to the facts, how will we know what is best for them or be able to make a responsible decision without being educated ourselves? Thank you for the reference to Marilyn. I'll check all that out.
 

 

post #70 of 96

I'm glad that you've decided that intact is the way to go and I'm glad you researched it before just going with what people tell you to do :) Your poor son doesnt sound like he's having a very good time :( There is a little bit of pain with an intact penis as well though. When I was pregnant, my boyfriend informed me of a fact that I was unaware of before: the first time a boy goes to actually pull back his foreskin is really painful. Of course, I'm sure that's not as bad as having part of it cut off.

post #71 of 96
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynns Mommy View Post

I'm glad that you've decided that intact is the way to go and I'm glad you researched it before just going with what people tell you to do :) Your poor son doesnt sound like he's having a very good time :( There is a little bit of pain with an intact penis as well though. When I was pregnant, my boyfriend informed me of a fact that I was unaware of before: the first time a boy goes to actually pull back his foreskin is really painful. Of course, I'm sure that's not as bad as having part of it cut off.


I have never heard of this. I HAVE heard of labial adhesions, and perhaps, the foreskin does this if it's not pulled back regularly and cleaned?
 

 

post #72 of 96

Well you know what an intact infant's penis looks like, right? The glans is completely covered by the foreskin, which almost closes around it. The opening in the foreskin is actually smaller than the head of the penis, so when you pull the foreskin back for the first time, it has to break through for lack of better words. I'm sure it's not the same for every boy. My boyfriend said he was about 6 when he first pulled his back.  

post #73 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynns Mommy View Post

my boyfriend informed me of a fact that I was unaware of before: the first time a boy goes to actually pull back his foreskin is really painful.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IwannaBanRN View Post

... perhaps, the foreskin does this if it's not pulled back regularly and cleaned?
 

 


After deciding not to circ the next step is learning how to care for an intact penis.  You'd be surprised how many people, pediatricians included, are unaware that you do NOT retract the foreskin for cleaning until it has naturally been retracted by the child himself.  There is no need to worry- soaking in the bath will work just fine to clean it and they definitely go at it- pulling and tugging.  He will slowly retract his own foreskin and the process may not be complete for years.  Some children may play too rough and cause some pain and bleeding, but I'm not sure that pain has to be part of the process.  You will need to be sure that your ped does not retract for a routine check- this can be painful and forced retraction can cause infection.  I had a friend who did not circ and regretted it b/c her son kept getting UTI's.  Her ped recommended circing to solve the problem.  Fortunately she told me about it and I was able to ask more questions and discover that her ped had told her to regularly retract to clean and the ped retracted at each visit as well.  Once I told her this was not correct intact care and sent her reputable links, she agreed to wait on the circing, stop retracting and see what happened.  Her son never had another infection and she's thrilled b/c she really didn't want to circ.  This was just a couple years ago.  I know as circing becomes less and less common more and more people will be well versed in intact care, but until then you have to take that extra step with you ped (and anyone else in contact with your son's genitals) and make sure they know not to retract.

 

 

 

post #74 of 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaimee View Post



 He will slowly retract his own foreskin and the process may not be complete for years.  Some children may play too rough and cause some pain and bleeding, but I'm not sure that pain has to be part of the process. 

 

 


That's why I mentioned that it's probably not the same for all boys. Thinking about it, my boyfriend (the only source of info I have on this particular topic so far) does tend to be impulsive, and he does painful things all the time (like not using oven mitts when neededduh.gif) so it makes sense that he would do it in a way to cause pain without really meaning to. Haha.
 

 

post #75 of 96

Right, listen to Jaimee!  The only care an intact penis needs is to wipe the outside like a finger.  That's it, super easy!

 

The foreskin is fused to the head of the penis in a baby and young children.  It's attached like your fingernail is to your finger.  The reason for this is to keep out anything that may cause irritation and infection.  Your baby will most likely spend a lot of time in a diaper, and the foreskin will remain tightly closed to keep poop out.   So you do not want to be pulling it back to clean under it at all!  Doing that will actually allow bacteria in, and cause painful tears in the natural, normal adhesions.  That is the cause of a lot of infections and scarring that lead people to later circumcise their kids.  And then they think they just should have circumcised in the first place, because it's sooo much trouble and their kid got so many infections- they never realize they were given improper care instructions. 

 

My older son was 3.5 when he retracted for the first time.  I remember it clearly because it was Mother's Day, and along with breakfast in bed, he brought me the trick he discovered!  Ay yi yi, boys. redface.gif  But it is not unusual for boys to be a lot older when retraction occurs, even up til puberty.  It happens gradually, and it can come with some pain sometimes as the newly raw surfaces sting.  But it goes away quickly, no big deal. 

 

Also don't let anyone (doctor or otherwise! As Jaimee said, many pediatricians are not well-educated about the normal penis!) tell you that the opening in the foreskin is too small and he'll need to be circumcised, he'll never retract, blah blah blah.  The hole has to be small to keep out the bad stuff, but it has a sphincter that opens to let urine out and then closes back down.  As long as a boy can pee, he's good.

post #76 of 96
Thread Starter 

So much to learn about the uncut! lol I have seen and been with guys that weren't cut, but I never asked questions. I really appreciate all of this info, ladies!

post #77 of 96

So true! My son's first doctor pulled and poked around and said "hmmm, the foreskin looks kind of tight" at my sons 1 month appointment. I should have run the other way or told him "duh, it's designed to be that way". At his two month visit, said doctor retracted it all the way and caused a lot of pain to my son. He said he "had to do it in order to check for abnormalities", "it just slid right back, I didn't use any force" (couldn't possibly be true, it definitely does not just slip back even now almost 2 years later) and said that now that he was able to retract I needed to continue doing so and cleaning it (NOT TRUE). Anyway, if you sense any BS coming from your doctor, do something (either educate, find a new doctor, or make a "no opening the diaper" policy) before they injure your child.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lula's

 

Also don't let anyone (doctor or otherwise! As Jaimee said, many pediatricians are not well-educated about the normal penis!) tell you that the opening in the foreskin is too small and he'll need to be circumcised, he'll never retract, blah blah blah.  The hole has to be small to keep out the bad stuff, but it has a sphincter that opens to let urine out and then closes back down.  As long as a boy can pee, he's good.



 

post #78 of 96

When I was interviewing pediatricians one  of my questions was "do you retract the foreskin of an uncircumcised penis at check ups?"   As BananaBreadGirl said, if the answer is yes, run the other way, decline that part of the procedure (if you really love that ped otherwise or have no choice of ped), or educate them (like with AAP's website for example).

post #79 of 96

Ah! I just read all of this and I wish that I would have gotten in on this convo much earlier. DP and I had this conversation shortly after finding out that it was indeed a boy. Despite the fact that I was hoping so hard for a boy, I figured that at least if it was a girl, we wouldn't have to have this debate. I had previously done research and the article that was in Mothering (Protect Your Uncircumcised Son) actually had pictures that aren't shown on Mothering's site... But basically it's just like the Youtube video that was shown in early posts except it just gives detailed drawn pictures of what happens during the circumcision process. Along with facts that I pulled from multiple sites and the pictures in the Mothering magazine, DP quickly gave up his assumption that circumcision isn't "harmless". While he still hasn't given me his definite approval to refrain from circumcising our little man, I feel like he is at least in a position where he understands why it's unnecessary, painful and unnatural - despite the fact that he still feels the need to defend his own circumcision. 

 

I feel like with enough facts compiled, convincing fathers that they should support intactivism isn't so hard. It's more just getting them to sit down with an open mind and listen to the evidence supporting this side. :) I'm so glad that Mothering does take the stance that it does. I believe that it really is very important to sometime provide biased information - as long as all of the evidence is worthwhile and fairly concrete. smile.gif

post #80 of 96

Intactivism can be a slow evolution for many...a paradigm shift so drastic doesn't happen overnight. But the basic realization that this is seemingly-benign procedure is painful, unnecessary and maybe even ethically wrong can happen one minute into a circ video on YouTube.

To the mamas who are expecting, keep in mind, if it comes down to it, your son will not be circumcised against your wishes. Even if they are in contradiction with your partner's wishes. Simply do not sign consent for this! Your partner may not like it at the time, but if you feel strongly against cutting your child, listen to your heart and mama bear instinct to protect that child. The father will get over it.

 

Instead of fretting about whether you can pull him into your camp in time, try a more laid back approach and put the burden on him. Leaving the child's penis alone should be the default action. Tell your partner how you feel about it, and that he needs to do his research and convince YOU, with clear and compelling evidence, why you SHOULD agree to such a procedure. I am certain once any reasonable person actually researches it, they will begin to see the truth. No harm in sending a few links or reading some articles together, but I just don't see why the default is to cut when it's clearly unnecessary. Men, if willing, need to learn the truth about what was done to them. Allowing your son to be cut in order to spare your partner uncomfortable feelings is a mistake. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. What I mean is, deeply examine his reasons and try to figure out (together) what they really are. Make this decision out of love, not fear (of the unknown or otherwise).

 

Like other posters, I also wanted to give big props to the OP for being so open-minded and willing to make a different decision the second time around. Your son will thank you one day.

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