participation way down? - Page 8

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by AdinaL 

That was fully mine.  Cynthia found the study and asked if I thought it was too much for a QOTD, I said it might be heated but it might be a good conversation.

I was full on wrong.  Long ago, back in the day, that might have resulted in an interesting conversation about race relations and what racism was.  This time, totally didn't work out that way.

We have had conversations about stuff like that before, and I was just plain flat out wrong that it would work out.  For that I apologize.

It's ok. When thoughtful conversations about race happen "organically" within a community, it can be a good discussion, so I can see why you thought that. Not knowing who the UN "Mothering" actually was, it came across like a cynical marketing ploy to capitalize off of bigotry. I believe you that it totally wasn't your intention at all.

[HollyBearsMom]

Originally Posted by mamakay 

It's ok. When thoughtful conversations about race happen "organically" within a community, it can be a good discussion, so I can see why you thought that. Not knowing who the UN "Mothering" actually was, it came across like a cynical marketing ploy to capitalize off of bigotry. I believe you that it totally wasn't your intention at all.

exactly. The last time MDC had a big "race" discussion, IIRC,  it spiraled into a "workshop" but I can't find it there now?  The purpose was to have an open and respectful conversation and to give all members an opportunity to learn/grow.  If I also recall correctly there was considerable build up to it, specific guidelines or "rules".  And of course it was "contained" within the community and moderated.

 I get why you (Adina)  may have naively thought this could generate the same respectful conversation it again proves the point that when you use sites like FB and the like to draw traffic and revenue $$ you need to understand the full impact of your actions before hand. You either support the UA or you don't.  Allowing the thread sponsored by Mothering to continue (people of color diploma???) is like saying Mothering endorses the content.  

The thread in question is in clear violation of the NEW UA yet it continues. So while I am sure you meant no harm and I appreciate you taking ownership it is still not enough.

[AdinaL]

You know, my degree is in theatre.  Stage Management to be exact.  So, I'm really good with the people part of forums, and discussing things and all that.

I'm still learning the social media side.  In fact, I think everyone is.  Things can happen and come up when you use social media that just don't happen otherwise.  It is naive for me to think that our facebook/twitter audience is the same as the board audience, but it is a hard perception to shake. So, yeah, you are right.  We need to be more aware and able to predict what will happen when we use social media.  

I did remove the thread.  

The board has changed a lot since you and I first joined, HollyBearsMom.  I think that when it was just the 2000 people it was back then, and we got all excited about having 200 people on line at one time it was a different dynamic when these conversations came up.  People knew each other, and people could say "hey, i find that to be really racist" and not have it devolve into a knock down fight about how someone wasn't a racist.  I am no longer sure it is possible to have the same educating, deep discussions about these kind of topics on a board of this size. When the board was small we all functioned from a place of knowing we all wanted the best for our kids (or to be kids, since I didn't have any when I joined) and that's what we were working toward.  Now, I don't think people believe that of each other, and it colors the conversations, IMO.

[HollyBearsMom]

Originally Posted by AdinaL 

You know, my degree is in theatre.  Stage Management to be exact.  So, I'm really good with the people part of forums, and discussing things and all that.

I'm still learning the social media side.  In fact, I think everyone is.  Things can happen and come up when you use social media that just don't happen otherwise.  It is naive for me to think that our facebook/twitter audience is the same as the board audience, but it is a hard perception to shake. So, yeah, you are right.  We need to be more aware and able to predict what will happen when we use social media.  

I did remove the thread.  

The board has changed a lot since you and I first joined, HollyBearsMom.  I think that when it was just the 2000 people it was back then, and we got all excited about having 200 people on line at one time it was a different dynamic when these conversations came up.  People knew each other, and people could say "hey, i find that to be really racist" and not have it devolve into a knock down fight about how someone wasn't a racist.  I am no longer sure it is possible to have the same educating, deep discussions about these kind of topics on a board of this size. When the board was small we all functioned from a place of knowing we all wanted the best for our kids (or to be kids, since I didn't have any when I joined) and that's what we were working toward.  Now, I don't think people believe that of each other, and it colors the conversations, IMO.

It has changed a lot.  And I miss a lot of people from those early days too.

But I agree that the whole landscape has changed and if Mothering is going to be successful (stay afloat) it needs accept that but more importantly it needs to be open about it. Peggy can not have her cake and eat it too. The web is too big a place and she will be called on this stuff.  I hope she is big enough to do what *you* did-take ownership for her mistakes, admit she was wrong and apologize. She might not like it but she is the "face" of Mothering and she need to do whats right.

While I have been disenchanted for a while I still have a soft spot for this place.  I "grew up" as mother here, I weathered so many of my sons ages and stages here, dealt with some pretty big highs and some very low lows in my marriage here, made a few enemies and quite a few friends.  Heck if I go back and read some of my old posts I don't think I would make it today...   

Adina- keep on hanging on!  And being that you are a theatre major, don't be afraid to break into a good show tune when you are feeling down. Works for me, LOL!

[Lillitu]

I am sad to see some of the changes that I have. It feels like MDC is losing the character that drew me to it in the first place.
 

Originally Posted by PhoenixMommaToTwo 

I think it's a combination of factors. I think the prevailing attitude has been that if you're not "crunchy" enough or ap enough than you don't belong. I know that there are some, like me, who are somewhat crunchy, but also have mainstream ideas. These people get bashed. Hardcore. Or the mods spank them for presenting ideas that don't jive with the "mdc atmosphere". It's hard to feel welcome when your questions and ideas are constantly being put down.

I haven't seen this- have you experienced it personally? I do know that someone spanked their kid and then asked not to be bashed (on an AP board! I don't get that...)

Originally Posted by Latte Mama 

I used to be here all the time.  Once they "updated" the site, I found I really disliked the new format and still do to some extent.  It loads slower and the site just doesn't feel as friendly to me anymore.  I'll say that almost every site I've ever posted on that has updated ends up losing tons of members.  People like things to stay the way they are!

The new format is clunky and hard to navigate. I like some of the features, but they should really have asked long time users to do a navigation test before launching the site. If I have issues (and I am not a newbie to the web or design) then I can imagine some folks have a really hard time and have given up!

Originally Posted by EviesMom 

I think a couple of things would help as newbies are coming to the site. First off, make it clear in the top bar, with some brief 1 liner like "MDC is a board dedicated to natural family living. We host discussions on gentle discipline, breastfeeding, etc." The "inspiring natural families since 1976" doesn't serve that purpose, because it's super duper tiny, and it reads as part of the logo and not something to read about the site. 

I would restructure the list of forums, because some of the ones that bring people back again and again are now really buried. ...

 ...

Lastly... I think the moderation is way too light now. Sure, it was over the top before. That I totally agree with. But the FB stuff is inflammatory and the moderation is too light for so many people in this space trying to figure out what it's about and what they can and can't say. Spinoff boards "work" sans moderation because people don't come into them without first having an intro to how such boards work; no one's really a newbie to the concept there, basically.  And also, the people who left because it was overmmoderated... well, they already left. They are truly unlikely to return from what I've seen in other boards/groups. You don't leave and come back when something changes, you just leave and stay away. 

Yes!!! All these things I agree with.

Originally Posted by Daffodil 

I think that organization is basically OK, but I don't really like having Gentle Discipline hidden way down in the "fringe" AP & Natural Family section.  Actually, I don't really like having that separate AP section at all.  Aren't most of us here because we're actually interested in things like gentle discipline, babywearing, or co-sleeping?  Why separate out all the AP stuff as if we're trying to minimize the AP/natural aspect of the site?

Yes, I agree with this as well. Although I think separate forums for these things help people find thread that they are looking for or to post in a place that people will see. If I have a co-sleeping question, people do not have to wade through gentle discipline and breastfeeding posts to find my question...

[InMediasRes]

Wow, I've been away for weeks and weeks, and apparently missed some major stuff. I'm sad about the changes. :(

Mostly, I would say I left because our TAO chat thread got shut down repeatedly and then permanently removed. I made great friends with some of the people in there, and they kept me coming back to MDC. Now I don't have any other way to keep in contact with them, and I miss it. 

I'm not sure I totally understand what happened with the Pat Robertson bit, but yeah, I find that pretty appalling myself.

I also had some issues with religious stuff, mainly that there was a lot of tip toeing around some posters due to the UA, where I felt like I couldn't speak my mind, but they were able to say whatever they wanted. I felt like, most of the time, people were able to keep things civil, but I wish that there was more of a place for secular parents here. I like that the place feels very inclusive, but there seems to be a bit of "special treatment" for religious posters where other view points were moderated more heavily.

I'm trying to be as polite about that as possible. I love this place. It really was such a life line to me when I had littler kids. I moved down to mostly visiting TAO and parenting, but I poke around in the other forums from time to time. I miss the activity, that's for sure. And I miss some of the buddies I made. 

[lalaland42]

Originally Posted by Lillitu 

I haven't seen this- have you experienced it personally? I do know that someone spanked their kid and then asked not to be bashed (on an AP board! I don't get that...)

 

Isn't that what Snapdragon is asking for? If you ever spanked your child, no matter how repentant you are, you don't belong. And no, I don't think that you should bash someone for saying that they spanked and didn't want to do it again before asking for different strategies. Answering politely and constructively might mean that child never gets spanked again. Can't unring a bell and alla that. 

FTR, I have never spanked either of my children.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by AdinaL 

The board has changed a lot since you and I first joined, HollyBearsMom.  I think that when it was just the 2000 people it was back then, and we got all excited about having 200 people on line at one time it was a different dynamic when these conversations came up.  People knew each other, and people could say "hey, i find that to be really racist" and not have it devolve into a knock down fight about how someone wasn't a racist.  I am no longer sure it is possible to have the same educating, deep discussions about these kind of topics on a board of this size. When the board was small we all functioned from a place of knowing we all wanted the best for our kids (or to be kids, since I didn't have any when I joined) and that's what we were working toward.  Now, I don't think people believe that of each other, and it colors the conversations, IMO.

I don't know, I remember a real knock down drag out on the old precrash board over a mama deciding to put her baby up for adoption that she was pregnant with. In fact I left and didn't come back for a long time as a result of how nasty it got. Which is why my post crash membership date is 2002. I don't think the difference between then and now is about people knowing each other better but about the fact that the board has a much more diverse membership now so there is not the same level of group think nor the ease in enforcing it that their used to be. And people are bristling over their lack of being able to do that. 

[AdinaL]

Originally Posted by Arduinna 

I don't know, I remember a real knock down drag out on the old precrash board over a mama deciding to put her baby up for adoption that she was pregnant with. In fact I left and didn't come back for a long time as a result of how nasty it got. Which is why my post crash membership date is 2002. I don't think the difference between then and now is about people knowing each other better but about the fact that the board has a much more diverse membership now so there is not the same level of group think nor the ease in enforcing it that their used to be. And people are bristling over their lack of being able to do that. 

I think it might be some of that too.  I think there are a lot of factors.  I know I was less likely to rip into someone in 2003 because I recognized almost every user name, and had some history with most of them. Now, I know very few user names. I think diversity has something to do with it as well, as does the mainstreaming of *some* AP practices like babywearing. 
I think there are a lot of factors.  Certainly not saying that there were never awful fights that had to be moderated when the board was small (Because that would be silly and utterly incorrect. LOL) but there was a smaller pool of folks who were having the discussion.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by AdinaL 

You know, my degree is in theatre.  Stage Management to be exact.  So, I'm really good with the people part of forums, and discussing things and all that.

I'm still learning the social media side.  In fact, I think everyone is.  Things can happen and come up when you use social media that just don't happen otherwise.  It is naive for me to think that our facebook/twitter audience is the same as the board audience, but it is a hard perception to shake. So, yeah, you are right.  We need to be more aware and able to predict what will happen when we use social media.  

I did remove the thread.  

The board has changed a lot since you and I first joined, HollyBearsMom.  I think that when it was just the 2000 people it was back then, and we got all excited about having 200 people on line at one time it was a different dynamic when these conversations came up.  People knew each other, and people could say "hey, i find that to be really racist" and not have it devolve into a knock down fight about how someone wasn't a racist.  I am no longer sure it is possible to have the same educating, deep discussions about these kind of topics on a board of this size. When the board was small we all functioned from a place of knowing we all wanted the best for our kids (or to be kids, since I didn't have any when I joined) and that's what we were working toward.  Now, I don't think people believe that of each other, and it colors the conversations, IMO.

Just FYI, I work on the borders of social media and I think the biggest thing you can predict about social media...is that you can't predict it. Social media is a lot about responding to that unpredictability. It's about credibility and transparency.

If your social media gurus are just giving you SEO tips and telling you to use FB/Twitter as marketing channels, they're  behind the curve.

Just something to toss out there as your team works on it.

ETA: For example, in a lot of threads there's a lot of grumpiness about other forums that bash MDC or whatever. That's actually (if you're seriously becoming a pro pure-play site) where you want to engage that audience. They're probably closer to your core user base than almost anyone who comes via a Google search. You want to understand what lights their fires and see what kind of traffic/engagement you get from their links, what improvements you can make from their experience, and see if you can turn that brand difficulty around. Those are the people that WERE your brand cheerleaders, and now they're out there trashing your brand. Why?

(These are just rhetorical questions. I don't expect a response :))

[sanguine_speed]

By not alienating members by quashing criticism, for starters.

Originally Posted by annettemarie 

Originally Posted by PuppyFluffer 

Traffic is down but the spirit is not the same either.  I miss what Mothering used to be.

So, how do we get it back? Or do you think the new UA precludes that from happening?

[eclipse]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn 

ETA: For example, in a lot of threads there's a lot of grumpiness about other forums that bash MDC or whatever. That's actually (if you're seriously becoming a pro pure-play site) where you want to engage that audience. They're probably closer to your core user base than almost anyone who comes via a Google search. You want to understand what lights their fires and see what kind of traffic/engagement you get from their links, what improvements you can make from their experience, and see if you can turn that brand difficulty around. Those are the people that WERE your brand cheerleaders, and now they're out there trashing your brand. Why?

(These are just rhetorical questions. I don't expect a response :))

[AdinaL]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn 

Just FYI, I work on the borders of social media and I think the biggest thing you can predict about social media...is that you can't predict it. Social media is a lot about responding to that unpredictability. It's about credibility and transparency.

If your social media gurus are just giving you SEO tips and telling you to use FB/Twitter as marketing channels, they're  behind the curve.

Just something to toss out there as your team works on it.

ETA: For example, in a lot of threads there's a lot of grumpiness about other forums that bash MDC or whatever. That's actually (if you're seriously becoming a pro pure-play site) where you want to engage that audience. They're probably closer to your core user base than almost anyone who comes via a Google search. You want to understand what lights their fires and see what kind of traffic/engagement you get from their links, what improvements you can make from their experience, and see if you can turn that brand difficulty around. Those are the people that WERE your brand cheerleaders, and now they're out there trashing your brand. Why?

(These are just rhetorical questions. I don't expect a response :))

Thanks.  And yes, that's what we are learning.  And yes, it is a steep ass learning curve for me.  Engaging, and finding what works is interesting, and very different for every community.  
 

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by AdinaL 

Thanks.  And yes, that's what we are learning.  And yes, it is a steep ass learning curve for me.  Engaging, and finding what works is interesting, and very different for every community.  
 

It is and it isn't, in my experience (I've worked in web since '98). What most people want in a site is fundamentally the same: topics of interest, respect for their experience (good user interface, clear and evenly applied policies, respect for their time/effort). And pretty pictures, sometimes prizes, and maybe a unicorn. ;)

What's really hard is how to grow traffic within those parameters because anyone who works on the web knows that all us readers CLAIM we want thoughtful educated discourse (whatever that means) and yet we often click on the links with the most egregious titles because human beings are kind of like that.

It's a killer that the TWWS and moderation threads are probably upping your PV/V even as they raise huge questions right? It can create a real disconnect. What gets traffic is not always what you're really about. And I feel for you and the rest of the admin/moderation team because the transition you're going through is stressful, and the change in the moderation policy means you're getting about 3 years' worth of information in a month. It must feel very overwhelming. And that makes it hard to bring your best ideas to the table, and feel safe in trying them out.

At the same time, now that the site is really clearly trying to be monetized, there will be an expectation that administration takes more of a customer service orientation towards its members - less personal, in some ways. The good news is that your audience wants you to be principled and feels really strongly about that. The bad news is the exact same.

To use a theatre analogy you're going from community theatre to pro, and so now your front of house has to be beefed up, critics are not going to be as supportive, you're going to have to decide whether to do the big happy musical to fill the seats all summer rather than the touching feminist play that sells 2/3 for two weeks, and all that. It really is a change, to go from "the web site of Mothering" to "Mothering, the web site." Lots of pressure, and rent to be paid and so on.

Now I'm starting to worry about the end of my mat leave when I get thrown back in the thick of it on *my* site. :)

[AdinaL]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn 

To use a theatre analogy you're going from community theatre to pro, and so now your front of house has to be beefed up, critics are not going to be as supportive, you're going to have to decide whether to do the big happy musical to fill the seats all summer rather than the touching feminist play that sells 2/3 for two weeks, and all that. It really is a change, to go from "the web site of Mothering" to "Mothering, the web site." Lots of pressure, and rent to be paid and so on.

Now I'm starting to worry about the end of my mat leave when I get thrown back in the thick of it on *my* site. :)

Now *this* I get. LOL  

[MovnMama]

Originally Posted by Lillitu 

I haven't seen this- have you experienced it personally? I do know that someone spanked their kid and then asked not to be bashed (on an AP board! I don't get that...)

 

Isn't that what Snapdragon is asking for? If you ever spanked your child, no matter how repentant you are, you don't belong. And no, I don't think that you should bash someone for saying that they spanked and didn't want to do it again before asking for different strategies. Answering politely and constructively might mean that child never gets spanked again. Can't unring a bell and alla that. 

FTR, I have never spanked either of my children.

Sorry, have not read the whole thread, but have been following the "shakedown" on MDC for some time. Like a few other posters, I feel that I have little weight, being so new and post counts are thrown around to indicate rank, etc. So, I must just respond to this. By which I mean this assertion and the general upset going on at MDC.

I am a repentant and recovering spanker. I had lurked for a long time on MDC but really came here (I remember the day and the post) because I was lost, I lost my cool, I didn't understand my child or our relationship and I spanked him. I grew up spanked and my parents are really conservative, and I didn't know how to handle parenting. I posted a thread and was sure to be flamed. But the advice that I got - that stuck, and that I remember - was to be gentle with myself too. Move forward and do good works. I have never and will never spank a child again. Ever. But remember, gentleness is not just for children. It's for everyone.

It's not about who's unacceptable, its about the good works we can do for kids and parents. I'm now an advocate for gentle discipline (in a HIGH SPANK - HIGHLY ANTI-NFP area) and that's hard, but it matters. It doesn't go well, much of the time (two of my good friends just reaffirmed that they'll be circumcising - after emotional debates with me ) but I honestly wouldn't be the advocate I am without being able to come here and grow.

I've grown and gone on a long journey, where I've actually adopted principles of nonviolence and found a bit of spirituality I hadn't before. Not ON the community, mind you, but in some instances, BECAUSE of... it's that impetus, that spark...

The issue, the reason participation is down, the reason why long timers are pissed off, the reason why newcomers are pissed off... the site and company has lost it's message in logo. Heck, the whole reason I got the message wasn't the magazine, it was the people on the forum! Money issues for sustainability is one thing. Paper less - okay, discontinue the mag. I get that. But all the jockeying for position, the thread closings, the solicitations, denoting critical members as "trolls," the starting of inflammatory threads and then transfer to facebook... all in pursuit of ads and money?

If Mothering is that hard up - go NPO for heaven's sake. Guess what? I wouldn't ever get a subscription to Mothering, but I sure would donate to an advocacy organization. And the label of supporter being so upset because the mag was cut after the solicits were made - tsk. Bad dealings.

Mothering has a decision - be a business or be an advocate. They obviously cannot do both. I am just grateful that I met advocates here that helped me improve my parenting and relationships. For that I am grateful, regardless of the outcome.

[pinkmama]

Originally Posted by AllyRae 

A little late to the party, but as for this...
 

Sorry, but it's not true.  I belong to a "private secure paid site" and know for a fact that there is an offshoot snark site about it that members who actually paid to be on the private site started and maintain.  People who spend so much time engaged in petty snark usually will pay to get their scoop, much like people who buy the National Enquirer.  What you post on the internet has the potential to be taken and misused, no matter where you posted it.  There are always jerks...and often times, jerks have money to spend to get their fix.  Please don't let your guard down just because you think paid = private.

Interesting that you didn't mention that you were also a member of the "snark" site and contributed heavily to the snark as well of the members of the paid site.