HUGE OB Vent!!! - Page 3

[Kanna]

You said that apart from this one error, you were quite satisfied with your OB.

Given that the error he made seems to have been at least partially due to a question of semantics (you asked for something that is NOT a narcotic, and he gave you something that ISN'T a narcotic, just like you asked....but which IS addictive), it might be worth to talk to him about the problems this kind of prescription can cause to someone who used to be a addict.

Given that he's a OB and NOT a specialist in dealing with addiction, it is possible that he wasn't aware that even barbiturates can cause problems for an ex-addict.

See what he says when you bring the subject up. If he apologizes and takes it as a learning experience that will help him provide better care to you and other ex-addicts, then I think it might be worth to give the guy another chance.

[IwannaBanRN]

I'm actually still seeing this OB. lol

[Kanna]

*chuckles*

Hopefully, the next time he has an ex-addict patient, he will have learned from this, so he won't go for the barbiturates  ^_~

[IwannaBanRN]

It's almost maddening enough, that I almost requested a different OB, but after I calmed down, I realized it's alot different for OB's versus a doctor specializing in pain medicine or someone who is specialized in prescribing mood stabilizing medication. He specializes in women's conditions, not neck pain and headaches. So, I kept him. lol

[1love4ever]

Wow OP that is ridiculous, I hate doctors.  There is a Dr here where I live that gives women episiotomies while they are pushing without even telling them or asking them, he just does it! (of course everyone I know who has had him has had a hospital birth with an epidural).  But that just goes to show that doctors really dont know best!  There is SO much evidence against episiotomies now, I cant believe any doctors still do them routinly.  But, whatever.  I also used to be a nursing student and I got to see first hand how the medical system really works.  I am so glad that I chose not to become a nurse, I could never feel right about doing all the garbage and going along with all the garbage that is our current medical system!

Is there a midwife you could get prenatal care from instead of an OB?  Sorry I have not really been participating in this due date club although I am due Nov 2.  I was in the Oct due date club for awhile until my due date was changed, but anyway I have not read any of your other posts so sorry if you have already talked about this.  Also, I have read Ina Mays Guide to Childbirth and it says a lot about the current medical system, and how Drs are about childbirth and pregnancy and all that, and it is so sad.

[Kanna]

Originally Posted by 1love4ever 

Wow OP that is ridiculous, I hate doctors.  There is a Dr here where I live that gives women episiotomies while they are pushing without even telling them or asking them, he just does it! (of course everyone I know who has had him has had a hospital birth with an epidural).  But that just goes to show that doctors really dont know best!  There is SO much evidence against episiotomies now, I cant believe any doctors still do them routinly.  But, whatever.  I also used to be a nursing student and I got to see first hand how the medical system really works.  I am so glad that I chose not to become a nurse, I could never feel right about doing all the garbage and going along with all the garbage that is our current medical system!

Is there a midwife you could get prenatal care from instead of an OB?  Sorry I have not really been participating in this due date club although I am due Nov 2.  I was in the Oct due date club for awhile until my due date was changed, but anyway I have not read any of your other posts so sorry if you have already talked about this.  Also, I have read Ina Mays Guide to Childbirth and it says a lot about the current medical system, and how Drs are about childbirth and pregnancy and all that, and it is so sad.

While I agree that the bedside manner of some doctors leaves to be desired, I have the feeling that your emotions Quote: "I hate all doctors" interfers with your ability to make an objective judgement on the capabilities and merits of OB's and hospitals.

Personally, I'm rather uncomfortable with Ina May Gaskin's approach to birth in some instances. Let me illustrate. She once wrote: 

"We have found that there are laws as constant as the laws of physics, electricity, or astronomy whose influence on the process of the birthing cannot be ignored. The midwife or doctor attending births must be flexible enough to discover the way these laws work and learn how to work with them. Pregnant and birthing mothers are elemental forces, in the same sense that gravity, thunderstorms, earthquakes, and hurricanes are elemental forces. In order to understand the laws of their energy flow, you have to love and respect them for their magnificence at the same time that you study them with the accuracy of a true scientist. A midwife or obstetrician needs to understand about how the energy of childbirth flows – to not know is to be like a physicist who doesn’t understand about gravity."

Sorry but if there were some "elemental laws of birth", she'd be able to write them down and acutally say what they are AND back them with some solid scientific research. Because, you know, Gravity, the forces of wind, humidity, temperature changes etc. occuring during a thunderstorm and the shift of the tectonic plates that causes earthquakes can actually be measured and explained.

The esoteric reference to some mysterious "energy flow", which apparently, according to Ms. Gaskin, can't be measured but has to be "loved and respected" in order to be understood, seems rather mushy and unreliable to me.

[1love4ever]

I think she is just talking about the natural flow of labor and birth....  And I am pretty certain she has a little more experience in the area of birth than do you....

As for my opinion of Drs, not that I should have to defend myself to you, but I have never met a Dr that I thought was completely honest and tried their best to help the patient in every way.  Now if I went into a Drs office for a prenatal checkup and they thoroughly counseled me on nutrition, told me that obstetrical interventions caused more harm than good in most situations, etc, then I would feel differently about that Dr.  Being in the medical field I have interacted with many doctors and I know the types of dishonesty that goes on as I have seen it and had it explained to me first hand by doctors.  I also do not entirely blame the Dr themselves, it is also the fault of the medical establishment they work for (a Dr that I was working with once told me that in order to keep patients happy who come into a Drs office with colds, the medical establishment has asked that their doctors not hesitate to write a prescription for antibiotics to patients with a virus, because otherwise patients leave dissatisfied, often times they will complain to the establishment, and are less likely to come back for future care.  Can anyone say "antibiotic resistant bacteria!").  The last thing to be blamed is medical school itself, because Drs, even OBs and pediatricians, are usually not required to take any classes on nutrition which is a huge part of a persons health!  But, they are taught about all kinds of medications and surgeries to fix problems....

Anyway OP, good luck with whatever you choose to do and I hope it works out!  I do highly recommend the book that I mentioned earlier as well.  It is excellent, and Ina May has delivered well over 2000 babies with much lower rates of complications than most hospitals.

[Kanna]

Sorry, but 2000 babies isn't that much.

OB's deliver a lot more:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-7837754.html

http://articles.philly.com/2004-07-28/news/25372888_1_mechanical-engineer-babies-maternity

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19940106&slug=1888271

Also, midwives take care of "normal" and uncomplicated births. If things go south, an OB has much more experience at handling it.

[jbk21]

I just have to interject here- "delivering" a baby is a lot (A LOT) different than the care that a midwife (like Ina May) provides.  OBs literally just come in during the last moments and catch the baby.  It is the nurses that truly care for the woman during labor (and even that is done from a central nurses station); during prenatal visits the OB is usually only with the woman for 5 minutes on average.  Midwives have hour long prenatal visits and are with the woman for most if not all of labor and childbirth, as well as during some postpartum hours.  As far as who understands the process of birth more, I put ALL my money on midwives.  As a rule, doctors are trained in pathology and they act according to risk-management (as well as out of fear of litigation).  They are trained specifically to diagnose and treat ISSUES, not to facilitate natural processes.  As far as low-risk, normal birthing, midwives are MORE than equipped to help guide that process and they are also well-trained in troubleshooting so as to know when to transfer to an OB.  Just so you know, those sort of transfers only happen in about 3% of normal births. 

So, if you asked me if a woman who has been with 2000 mothers throughout pregnancy and labor knows more about labor and birth process than an OB who has simply "caught" 3000+ babies, I'd say, without hesitation, YES the midwife knows more.  Childbirth is not an illness.  Doctors treat illness.

I also want to add that I think the books Ina May has written are so important.  No book is perfect, no author is perfect, and I can see your issue, Kanna, with that particular passage but as a whole I think that she is right on.  Promoting natural birthing is important, especially here in America, and it's important for women to be able to make informed choices about birth.  
 

Originally Posted by Kanna 

Sorry, but 2000 babies isn't that much.

OB's deliver a lot more:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-7837754.html

http://articles.philly.com/2004-07-28/news/25372888_1_mechanical-engineer-babies-maternity

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19940106&slug=1888271

Also, midwives take care of "normal" and uncomplicated births. If things go south, an OB has much more experience at handling it.

[Kanna]

I think you didn't get my point.

Basis (numbers fictional): Assuming that 10 % of all low-risk, normal births develop complications:

A midwife that has attended 2000 of these births will have dealt with 200 births with complications.

Now, OB's don't only get the "low-risk, normal" births, but also the "high-risk abnormal ones". Let's say that is 30% of all the births he has attended.

So an OB will that has attended a 10.000 births will have dealt with 3000 births that had complications.

This means that the OB has a LOT more experience dealing with births that have complications, which makes him more qualified to deal with those (plus, he has the equipment at his disposal to deal with them. And when I say "equipment" I mean an OR and a surgical team, an anaesthsiologist and ideally a pediatrician close by).

So for a "low-risk, normal" birth, a competent, skilled midwife is fine.

But IF there are complications (strong PPH, fetal distress, etc.) then you definitely need an OB and a hospital. (Same for high-risk births)

[Adaline'sMama]

DDCC, before this gets too complicated and crazy argumenitive because *gasp* someone said something negative about St. Ina May Gaskin, Id like to say that I think a lot of what she writes is really inspiring and helpful. A lot of it is crazyness and really meant for superopenawesome hippies. For example, she massages her clients' clitoris. Ummm, no. Not at my birth, not by my midwife. Maybe by my DH....

All Im sayin' is, dont beat up on Kanna for not agreeing with all things Ina May. And for the record, I believe that high risk births belong with high risks OB's who have the technology to deal with such issues.

[jbk21]

Here's the thing: Kanna singled out Ilove4ever for expressing an opinion.  Nobody took what Ilove4ever said as anything more than just that- an opinion.  The OP had a gripe about her OB but she is also planning a UC because she is low-risk.  Nobody here is concerned about high-risk birthing, that's not what this thread is about.  We all know that high-risk births belong with an OB.  Nobody is saying that true complications shouldn't be dealt with by an OB.  Do I make that point clear enough?  

I'm not beating up on Kanna, I think if you go back a few posts you'll see she was "beating up" on Ilove4ever for having an opinion about doctors based on her experience.  

Now, as for the fictional numbers presented by Kanna, I know you just made them up but I think if you looked at the facts we would all see that while OBs deal with the mid-high risk births as well as low-risk, they apply way too many interventions that are unnecessary to the low-risk births just because they are trying to manage risk and they don't trust the natural birth process.  They don't know a natural, low-risk birth when they see it because all they are doing is trying to diagnose a problem.  Problems aren't always there.  In well over 90% of low-risk births, there is no complication. 

That was part of what Ilove4ever was trying to say- she used the example of a doc who performs epis without consent and for every woman.  Not every woman needs an epi- I'd argue that Very VERY few need one.  Sure that is just one doctor but that wouldn't happen in MW care.


 

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

DDCC, before this gets too complicated and crazy argumenitive because *gasp* someone said something negative about St. Ina May Gaskin, Id like to say that I think a lot of what she writes is really inspiring and helpful. A lot of it is crazyness and really meant for superopenawesome hippies. For example, she massages her clients' clitoris. Ummm, no. Not at my birth, not by my midwife. Maybe by my DH....

All Im sayin' is, dont beat up on Kanna for not agreeing with all things Ina May. And for the record, I believe that high risk births belong with high risks OB's who have the technology to deal with such issues.

[dashley111]

Originally Posted by jbk21 

I'm not beating up on Kanna, I think if you go back a few posts you'll see she was "beating up" on Ilove4ever for having an opinion about doctors based on her experience.  


 

I agree with this.  I read this thread earlier this morning and tried to stay out of it, its no longer a productive conversation. 

[jbk21]

Yep.  I think we all know our options for care providers, we all assume the risks involved with those choices, and the OP knows what is best for her, just like Ilove4ever knows what is best for her, and so on.  We are also entitled to have opinions about docs (or midwives) based on previous birth experiences or what have you.  Still, nobody is going to convince me that it is in the best interest of a mother to go to an OB when she is low-risk.  I have three words: cascade of interventions.
 

Anyway, happy birthing everyone.

Originally Posted by dashley111 

I agree with this.  I read this thread earlier this morning and tried to stay out of it, its no longer a productive conversation. 

[Kanna]

Originally Posted by jbk21 

Here's the thing: Kanna singled out Ilove4ever for expressing an opinion.  Nobody took what Ilove4ever said as anything more than just that- an opinion.  The OP had a gripe about her OB but she is also planning a UC because she is low-risk.  Nobody here is concerned about high-risk birthing, that's not what this thread is about.  We all know that high-risk births belong with an OB.  Nobody is saying that true complications shouldn't be dealt with by an OB.  Do I make that point clear enough?  

I'm not beating up on Kanna, I think if you go back a few posts you'll see she was "beating up" on Ilove4ever for having an opinion about doctors based on her experience.  

Now, as for the fictional numbers presented by Kanna, I know you just made them up but I think if you looked at the facts we would all see that while OBs deal with the mid-high risk births as well as low-risk, they apply way too many interventions that are unnecessary to the low-risk births just because they are trying to manage risk and they don't trust the natural birth process.  They don't know a natural, low-risk birth when they see it because all they are doing is trying to diagnose a problem.  Problems aren't always there.  In well over 90% of low-risk births, there is no complication. 

That was part of what Ilove4ever was trying to say- she used the example of a doc who performs epis without consent and for every woman.  Not every woman needs an epi- I'd argue that Very VERY few need one.  Sure that is just one doctor but that wouldn't happen in MW care.
 

No, acutally I neither "singled out" Ilove4ever nor did I "beat her up for having an opinion".

This thread was about if the OP could still trust in her OB after the mistake he made.

Ilove4ever then pointed out that she had a lot of negative experiences with doctors and that she hates them.

I agreed with Ilove4ever that doctors bedside manner at times leaves much to be desired. Sometimes doctors run roughshod over their patients wishes and dignity, and those doctors that do this definitely would be well advised to stop that kind of behaviour.

But since this post is / was about giving the OP input and information on whether to ditch her OB or not, I pointed out that feelings based on anecdotal evidence (which not even pertained to the doctor in question), is not something that would be helpful to the OP in making their decision.

Anecdotal evidence is nice to illustrate a point, but it gives an incomplete, inaccurate image of a given situation as a whole. And while the feelings of one person certainly help THAT person make decisions for themselves, they are not necessarily a good basis for ANOTHER, completely different person in a completely different situation to base their decisions on.
 

Also, it is possible for an low risk birth to turn into a high risk one within moments...and yes, then you DO need an OB and all the interventions they can offer to save lives.

Which, of course doesn't mean that you can't have a nice, normal midwife. It's just that that midwife should have the skills and the competence to recognize when things go south and then transfer her patient as speedily to a hospital and an OB as possible.

[jbk21]

Perhaps what you think you said and what you really said don't match up, at least for those of us reading it.  

Originally Posted by Kanna 

No, acutally I neither "singled out" Ilove4ever nor did I "beat her up for having an opinion".

This thread was about if the OP could still trust in her OB after the mistake he made.

Ilove4ever then pointed out that she had a lot of negative experiences with doctors and that she hates them.

I agreed with Ilove4ever that doctors bedside manner at times leaves much to be desired. Sometimes doctors run roughshod over their patients wishes and dignity, and those doctors that do this definitely would be well advised to stop that kind of behaviour.

But since this post is / was about giving the OP input and information on whether to ditch her OB or not, I pointed out that feelings based on anecdotal evidence (which not even pertained to the doctor in question), is not something that would be helpful to the OP in making their decision.

Anecdotal evidence is nice to illustrate a point, but it gives an incomplete, inaccurate image of a given situation as a whole. And while the feelings of one person certainly help THAT person make decisions for themselves, they are not necessarily a good basis for ANOTHER, completely different person in a completely different situation to base their decisions on.
 

Also, it is possible for an low risk birth to turn into a high risk one within moments...and yes, then you DO need an OB and all the interventions they can offer to save lives.

Which, of course doesn't mean that you can't have a nice, normal midwife. It's just that that midwife should have the skills and the competence to recognize when things go south and then transfer her patient as speedily to a hospital and an OB as possible.

[Kanna]

On the internet, it can be really hard to make a call sometimes on how something that was written was intended:

- The internet lacks stuff like body-language, facial expressions and tone of voice, which are a BIG part of communication. This imperfection means that if someone SAYS words to you, you'll know if a person is being aggressive or not. With just the written words in the comments, it can happen that you read emotion into them that the poster never intended. Which apparently is the case here.

- Communication background. In my family / usual peer-group, we're fairly fact focused, straightforward and debate stuff a LOT and people are even perfectly fine with it if the argument gets a bit heated. In talking about a specific subject, we're about the facts and the information....NOT about the person behind it.

Other people have other communication backgrounds, that are more focused on the emotional context of a debate, a bit more indirect in their approach and more sensitive to the feelings of the people involved.

Either is valid. Either is fine. But when people from different communication backgrounds meet, unaware that they're using different "communication protocols", then things can get messy. The solution is, I believe, somewhere in the middle: be aware of the difference, straightforward people can tread a little more softly and people with an indirect communication approach can view the stuff  the straightforward people say with a slightly more relaxed attitude.

I might have expressed a less than complimentary view of Ms Gaskin and given that as a reason why I'm uncomfortable with her, but I never said anything negative about Ilove4ever. 

The only thing I DID say to Ilove4ever was, that if she hated doctors (which is a strong subjective view), then it would in all likelihood interfere with her ability to make valid objective decisions about doctors. Which is something that is pretty much true about everybody. I'm not qualified either to make objective statments about things, merely based on my feelings. For something to be objective, it has to be backed up by data and proof.

[Adaline'sMama]

See, what happened from my POV is that 1love4ever said something that came off like "I hate doctors and Ive read Ina May and she has a lot to say about OB's and birth and all that" and Kanna said "Ina May isnt all that and a bag of chips really." and then everyone attacked her for "beating up" 1love4ever. JMO.

[jbk21]

Gosh I love unproductive conversations.  

[Kanna]

Originally Posted by jbk21 

Gosh I love unproductive conversations.  

You want a productive conversation? Then drop by in THIS forum, I double dog dare ya!

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1325291/the-price-of-being-the-best-is-having-to-be-the-best-or-on-how-to-make-homebirth-even-safer-initial-quote-by-terry-pratchett#post_16599963