What happened to early childhood? - Page 3

[wildmonkeys]

Hmm...many interesting different opinions. 

I will say that I agree that academics should not be the sole emphasis at any age - I thought that it sort of goes without saying that kids need to learn to get along, be kind, cooperate, etc.

I think what we are interested in probably influences what we introduce our kids to...I love reading and art.  At an early age I took my kids to free art classes at a local museum and we visit the library so often it is almost silly.  As such, at early ages I was reading to my kids a lot and buying lots of art supplies and doing projects with them...was I pressuring them to be artists or early readers?? No, but I love art and literature and I couldn't wait to share these things with them.  Likewise, I love astronomy and have spent loads of time out in the backyard showing them things I think are beautiful.   

As my kids have gotten older they have found their own interests...my 11 year old and 7 year old both play an instrument even though dh and I aren't very musical.  They also both seem to love science and my oldest joined a chess club and plays with his friends...he actually had to teach me to play because he wanted an in house partner.  Not to mention that he "sleeps with his baseball mitt" Baseball was a sport I grew up HATING.  I have also lost control of our family collections of lego - they can't get enough and honestly, I don't get why????

However, as my kids get older...I think that part of getting along with others is honoring other peoples interests. My kids will go in the yard and look at Saturn with me (even though I suspect they don't care ;) and I will gladly attend their baseball games and band performances because I enjoy watching them do things that make them happy. 

I guess my point is that I completely support the concept of a child leading and defining their own interests - having lots of time to play in the backyard or ocean. To be silly with friends or dress up or berry pick or whatever. OTH I don't think that exposing kids to letters or numbers or chess or art or music or sports or the outdoors or whatever is going to hurt them or take away their childhood unless you present things in a "you must be good at this/the best at this now" sort of way.  I know this is a little off the topic, but since so much of th thread sort of crossed over to the right of children to lead their own learning - they were the thoughts that came to mind.

As an aside (and it is a totally different topic) I always find the "good old days" view of parenting sort of funny.  My fil, who has passed, would be 88.  He didn't go to preschool or kinder either, but because he was WORKING hard on the family farm.  When talking about teens - people often say "they grow up too fast" but my grandfather dropped out of school in 8th grade to support his 5 younger brothers and sisters....I mean there are lots of examples and I won't ramble on with all of them and and I do agree there is a weird push to have kids achieve things earlier academically, but I also think there are many ways that my kids, at least, enjoy a much more playful and stress free childhood than many children of previous generations.  Anyway, I know it is off topic  

Anyway, sorry to get so off topic, but the thread has been rich with different ideas and got me thinking.....always a good thing :)  

[happysmileylady]

I am confused...what else would you put on the wall of a PRESCHOOL except the things the kids would be learning once they get to school?  Why wouldn't you put letters, numbers, musical notes, etc etc up on the walls of a preschool?  That's a genuine question. 

[belltree]

Happysmileylady, iI do get it if there are some letters or numbers in a Kindergarten . But honestly, even then, why not have paintings, drawings, craftwork up on the walls? Things to make the room comfortable. I never had letters on the walls in all my school life and I still learned to read.

Edited by belltree - 6/12/11 at 6:02am

[meemee]

dd went to a play based ps which was also a daycare.

on the walls they had a gigantic map (the children's favourite always), book cover posters and other posters of geometric desings, life of a butterfly, volcanoes, etc and famous paintings prints. 

they did not even have alphabet blocks. 

[lindberg99]

You know, now I'm really curious about Waldorf schools. Are there really NO letters at all in the room? Like would they have a giant map on the wall with no labels on it (like Atlantic Ocean, country names, etc)? Or would they just not put up the letter borders that were *just* letters...you know, like Aa Bb Cc, etc?

[karne]

Originally Posted by lindberg99 

You know, now I'm really curious about Waldorf schools. Are there really NO letters at all in the room? Like would they have a giant map on the wall with no labels on it (like Atlantic Ocean, country names, etc)? Or would they just not put up the letter borders that were *just* letters...you know, like Aa Bb Cc, etc?

Nope. No letters, numbers, labels, pictures, except of Virgin Mary/Madonna.

[bandgeek]

I work in an early childhood learning center.  They have a curriculum for every age group, even the little babies.  It is stressed to us that safety is our first concern, but next comes curriculum, always.  It is what we are about.  I find it hilarious that this center focuses so much on early childhood academics, but they try to fit so much in one day, it's not even benefiting the children.  In fact I think it's doing them a disservice.  What they are doing with them isn't unrealistic for the age groups (exploring for babies, colors and shapes for toddlers, ABC's for preschool, ect) but they have to "show" exactly what they've been doing through what we call DOLs (documentation of learning).  The teachers have to put up these elaborate posters and graphs and whatnot describing what they did.  Now here's the problem.....they fly through the projects to get done as quickly as possible.  The kids barely get to enjoy it.  Then the teacher makes a awesome looking poster, complete with pictures of the kids showing what the kids did, making it look like they spent an hour on this activity....while they plop the kids in front of a movie or park them at tables with crayons and paper.  THIS is what early academics looks like for kids.  It's not even about the kids....it's for the parents.  The parents spend good money sending their kids to "learning centers", thinking their kids get all this enrichment.  But the teachers have to spend far more time decorating their classroom and the halls than they actually spending teaching the kids.  And this is not isolated...the company I work for has the same curriculum throughout many schools *world-wide* under various names. The exception in my school is the pre-k teacher who comes in early and works on her own time before she has to be in the classroom.  She clearly loves her job and doesn't want to cheat the kids.  So she does the grunt work on her own time.

I don't think all early education is bad.  I think it's great when kids want to learn.  I'm not down with forcing information on kids when they aren't ready for it.  I think parents who think learning centers are better than regular daycare are kidding themselves.  What bothers me most is when so much stock is put into the idea that early academics is best that it ends up being worse for the kids.

And if anyone wonders why I'm with such a company when I don't agree with it...I'm the cook (and morning aide) and I have the opportunity to feed these kids good food when before they were getting tator tots as veggies and fruit snacks for snacks.  I care about the kids...the idea behind the curriculum is a joke though.

[whatsnextmom]

I taught preschool for several years and the walls started blank and slowly filled with the kids works. We had decoration but it was mostly seasonal... like our "bug" themed month would mean pulling out the big dragonfly kite and hanging it, putting plastic bugs in the sensory tables, bringing out the bug themed puzzles and games. Bringing out the butterfly nets, the fabric butterfly wing type costumes. "Winter" month put ice and snow in the sensory tables, the dragonfly replaced with snow flakes the kids made, the art from the bugs is sent home and new art about winter is put up. We didn't have letters and numbers on the wall but we weren't void of them in the classroom. We always had two tables with some sort of "academic" options (one math, one language) that the kids could chose to go to or not whether it was a number/shape/color bingo game, a board game, unifix cubes and other math manipulatives, a jr boggle game, handwriting without tears magnetic boards, mat man sticks that can be put in letter shapes or whatever shape a kid wanted, dictation station where a child could draw a picture and have the teacher write down their story about it, ect. Believe it or not, MOST of the kids chose these stations several times a week. They are KIDS and thery don't differentiate the feeling of fun that can be had at the play kitchen or block center and the fun that can be had rolling dice and counting out little bears to match. If you present everything as a CHOICE and a potentially FUN activity, kids don't discriminate.

Personally, I wanted my kids in a preschool that gave them options.... not sure why anyone wouldn't.

Originally Posted by happysmileylady 

I am confused...what else would you put on the wall of a PRESCHOOL except the things the kids would be learning once they get to school?  Why wouldn't you put letters, numbers, musical notes, etc etc up on the walls of a preschool?  That's a genuine question. 

[Kristine233]

I was a pre-k teacher for 10 years at various learning centers. Not one of them was like a classroom, ever. They don't sit down at desks to learn something like they do in kindergarten or first grade. The kids instead learn through play, weekly themes and fun group times. Many kids walk out knowing their ABCs, basic words and basic adding... but they don't sit down and do workbooks. No child was ever forced to do anything and I always tailored activities to each child, their abilities and what THEY wanted to do.

An example of how we learned letters and words when I was doing the groups: There would be a letter of the week and kids brought in show and tell that started with that letter. They loved showing me and their friends what they brought. We would all brainstorm as a group to come up with words that began with that letter and I would write the word on the board and draw a big fun picture to go with the word. I left those on the board all week. The kids LOVED this and they would go home to their parents to have them help think up more ideas, it was great for getting parents involved too. I made a bunch of letter tiles and would leave them on a table and kids often came over on their own and tried spelling out the words from the board. I made little slips of paper with their favorite words on it so they could play with making those words when our weekly words were erased. Learning involved play, songs, show and tell and art activities. I don't see anything wrong with this. This is how it was done at every preschool I ever worked at.


These are the tiles I made for my preschoolers. Once I was done teaching I brought them home and my own kids still use them. My youngest uses them as counters for math and practicing her spelling words.

I DON'T like the awards thing, singling out kids who are "the best". That doesn't sit right with me at such a young age.

[Kristine233]

Originally Posted by bandgeek 

The kids barely get to enjoy it.  Then the teacher makes a awesome looking poster, complete with pictures of the kids showing what the kids did, making it look like they spent an hour on this activity....while they plop the kids in front of a movie or park them at tables with crayons and paper.  THIS is what early academics looks like for kids.  It's not even about the kids....it's for the parents.  The parents spend good money sending their kids to "learning centers", thinking their kids get all this enrichment.  But the teachers have to spend far more time decorating their classroom and the halls than they actually spending teaching the kids.  And this is not isolated...the company I work for has the same curriculum throughout many schools *world-wide* under various names.

Then they are doing it wrong and the parent company isn't one I'd want to be involved with. At every place I've worked at I had to do my own curriculum planning for the weekly themes too. Not all preschools are like the one you describe above.

[bandgeek]

Originally Posted by Kristine233 

Originally Posted by bandgeek 

The kids barely get to enjoy it.  Then the teacher makes a awesome looking poster, complete with pictures of the kids showing what the kids did, making it look like they spent an hour on this activity....while they plop the kids in front of a movie or park them at tables with crayons and paper.  THIS is what early academics looks like for kids.  It's not even about the kids....it's for the parents.  The parents spend good money sending their kids to "learning centers", thinking their kids get all this enrichment.  But the teachers have to spend far more time decorating their classroom and the halls than they actually spending teaching the kids.  And this is not isolated...the company I work for has the same curriculum throughout many schools *world-wide* under various names.

Then they are doing it wrong and the parent company isn't one I'd want to be involved with. At every place I've worked at I had to do my own curriculum planning for the weekly themes too. Not all preschools are like the one you describe above.

You are right, and I didn't say all of them were like that.  But it's a common theme I'm seeing, particularly with THIS company (I've visited the other centers in the area and it's all the same).  The teachers are underpaid, overworked, get no paid time to do "extra" stuff, have to scramble at the end of the week to make sure their room passes standards, and the kids get pushed aside.  I'm almost positive kids in "regular" daycare get more "learning time" than the kids in centers like this one.

I don't agree with how it's done, but I'm just the cook.  It's not my concern.  I have to pay my bills and I get free childcare for my DS (who is 6, homeschooled, and doesn't need the "enrichment activities"). *shrug*
 

[NYCVeg]

Originally Posted by P.J. 

What I don't like is that kids are pushed into and either explicitly or subtly expected to learn letters and numbers while they're still toddlers. This is a wild guess, but I would imagine far less than half of children under age four would express a natural urge to learn how to read and write and do math, if it weren't "taught" to them. I am all about "child-led", and I agree with the poster who pointed out that if my son decides he wants to learn to read at age four, then maybe Waldorf would not be the best place for him.

I don't know--numbers and letters, just like colors, foods, shapes, and other categories of things, are simply part of a child's world. My dd is/was interested in learning about numbers because the knowledge helps her to navigate life. She can help me cook if she knows what I mean when I tell her to get 3 apples or measure a teaspoon of vanilla. Knowing how to count things helps her to understand and categorize and make judgments about what she sees. She's able to play all kinds of board and card games--which she really enjoys--that she couldn't play without those basic skills. She is able to save her allowance and make decisions about what she might like to buy with it and how long she'll need to save to get what she wants. I mean, a four or five year old isn't learning to count or add so that she can score well on her SATs, but because these are skills that everyone needs, just like social skills, physical skills, and so on.

How is learning letters or numbers in an age-appropriate way at all different from learning about animals or colors or anything else a child might encounter in life? I just can't imagine someone saying, "Oh no! My child learned about weather and earthworms in preschool today! How dare the school push biology so soon!" I absolutely agree that a toddler/preschooler should be spending significant amounts of time sitting at a desk, doing worksheets, drilling flash cards, and stuff like that. But I think there are VERY few preschool programs that actually teach math or letters in this way.
 

[east carolina]

My son was in a Montessori preschool last year, which he liked, but was a little bored there. This year, he's in a private more typically academic kindergarten and he does spend some time every day at a desk doing worksheets. He loves this, he is obsessed with numbers, counting them, adding them up, counting by twos, saying all the number until 200. He notices number everywhere, street signs, bus lines.... He started recognizing letters on his own, and is more than happy to be encouraged by his preschool to trace them, circle words that begin with them etc... They do a lot of play-based learning, singing, they have circle time in the morning, they do art projects. He often talks about how he can't wait to be in school.

When he was very little I often considered homeschooling him, I thought about whether to put him in Montessori, Waldorf... I assumed public education would be a problem, traditional education would be a problem. For my DS, this hasn't been the case. In the end he has felt more comfortable in a typical kindergarten setting. Every kid is different, I wouldn't assume that the children of your FB friends are unhappy learning the way they are learning, even if it doesn't seem like the best way to you.

[P.J.]

Originally Posted by NYCVeg 

I don't know--numbers and letters, just like colors, foods, shapes, and other categories of things, are simply part of a child's world. My dd is/was interested in learning about numbers because the knowledge helps her to navigate life. She can help me cook if she knows what I mean when I tell her to get 3 apples or measure a teaspoon of vanilla. Knowing how to count things helps her to understand and categorize and make judgments about what she sees. She's able to play all kinds of board and card games--which she really enjoys--that she couldn't play without those basic skills. She is able to save her allowance and make decisions about what she might like to buy with it and how long she'll need to save to get what she wants. I mean, a four or five year old isn't learning to count or add so that she can score well on her SATs, but because these are skills that everyone needs, just like social skills, physical skills, and so on.

How is learning letters or numbers in an age-appropriate way at all different from learning about animals or colors or anything else a child might encounter in life? I just can't imagine someone saying, "Oh no! My child learned about weather and earthworms in preschool today! How dare the school push biology so soon!" I absolutely agree that a toddler/preschooler should be spending significant amounts of time sitting at a desk, doing worksheets, drilling flash cards, and stuff like that. But I think there are VERY few preschool programs that actually teach math or letters in this way.
 

This is a really good point you bring up, and I agree that it is developmentally appropriate that toddlers learn about all sorts of categories. Numbers and letters do have a place there. However, there is a difference between natural learning (looking at a leaf and talking in a relaxed and natural way about its color, texture, and casually noticing that there are four of them, etc) and contrived learning ("That's a leaf, can you say leaf? What color is that leaf? How many leaves are there? What letter does 'leaf' begin with?"). I see people drilling their babies this way, and this is how it all begins. To me that's an implied pressure on the child. I think that in some cases a child may seem like they enjoy learning in this way, when in fact they are simply eager to please their parents and/or teachers. They see how excited and happy the parent is when they learn ("Wow! That's right!! 'leaf' begins with 'l', very good!) and they seek this reaction so keep on going and learning. I'm not saying that all children don't enjoy this or aren't ready for this in early childhood. I'm just noting the way I see these sorts of interactions and this way of learning. There is natural learning ~and children learn constantly all the time no matter what~ and there is forced, contrived learning. To me, putting the alphabet on the wall and always making a point to say which letter which word begins with or whatever is contrived. If a child wants to know what letter 'leaf' begins with, they will tell you. No need to push it into them.
 

[Drummer's Wife]

Originally Posted by P.J. 

This is a really good point you bring up, and I agree that it is developmentally appropriate that toddlers learn about all sorts of categories. Numbers and letters do have a place there. However, there is a difference between natural learning (looking at a leaf and talking in a relaxed and natural way about its color, texture, and casually noticing that there are four of them, etc) and contrived learning ("That's a leaf, can you say leaf? What color is that leaf? How many leaves are there? What letter does 'leaf' begin with?"). I see people drilling their babies this way, and this is how it all begins. To me that's an implied pressure on the child. I think that in some cases a child may seem like they enjoy learning in this way, when in fact they are simply eager to please their parents and/or teachers. They see how excited and happy the parent is when they learn ("Wow! That's right!! 'leaf' begins with 'l', very good!) and they seek this reaction so keep on going and learning. I'm not saying that all children don't enjoy this or aren't ready for this in early childhood. I'm just noting the way I see these sorts of interactions and this way of learning. There is natural learning ~and children learn constantly all the time no matter what~ and there is forced, contrived learning. To me, putting the alphabet on the wall and always making a point to say which letter which word begins with or whatever is contrived. If a child wants to know what letter 'leaf' begins with, they will tell you. No need to push it into them.
 

this actually doesn't sound like forced or contrived learning, to me, unless, of course, the child is resistant and uninterested and the adult is truly forcing it upon them. 

I also think that chances are you will change your opinion on a lot of this as your infant gets older.  You will see that it is healthy parenting, not to mention good teaching in an early childhood education setting, to ask inquiring questions such as, "what color is that leaf?" or "what animals did we see on our walk?" or similar.  Children actually enjoy having someone interact with them like such, part of it is just having an engaging conversation with a small person whose mind is an absorbent sponge. 

Rote memorization such as making children learn the time tables just because; that, I can see as contrived and unnecessary, even.  But when we are talking about a bunch of 3, 4, and 5 yr olds, who yes, are learning through play; that play includes gentle guiding from an adult - and adult who can keep their wheels spinning and expand their knowledge about the world around them in a way that simply observing their environment doesn't typically allow.  Children do love to please adults in many ways (though, wait until you have a 3 yr old and you will see they also LOVE to be defiant), but I would guess that most LO's who are asked questions regarding things they are interacting with are truly enjoying that type of learning. 

As I said upthread, my children are in Montessori and they learn by doing - not being taught to, so to speak.  They aren't learning from textbooks or lectures or worksheets - they are manipulating things to figure out how they work.  As such, the teacher is there to help them by showing them how to use the materials and ask them questions about their work as well as offer additional information (example - while putting together a puzzle of the map of Asia, they might comment on something specific to Asia).  This is a good thing, IMO, and isn't forced academics. 

[lach]

Originally Posted by P.J. 

However, there is a difference between natural learning (looking at a leaf and talking in a relaxed and natural way about its color, texture, and casually noticing that there are four of them, etc) and contrived learning ("That's a leaf, can you say leaf? What color is that leaf? How many leaves are there? What letter does 'leaf' begin with?"). I see people drilling their babies this way, and this is how it all begins. 

When you have a barely verbal toddler, that's pretty much what a "relaxed and natural" conversation is like, though.  There's about a year or two or three where they don't really have much to add to the conversation except direct, single word answers.  You'll also find that when they develop new skills (learning colors, counting), they LOVE to show off, and to be asked to show off those new skills.  IME, things like learning numbers, letters, colors and animal sounds are all developmental, and you can drill all you want but they won't "get" it until they're ready.  But after they get it?  Asking them single, one word questions that they know the answer to is how you have a conversation.

Also keep in mind that you do not know the whole story.  My son was deaf until he was about 15 months, and after that we had some major catch up to do.  I was that mother drilling him with vocabulary words, animal sounds, colors... any and all noise and trying to make him repeat back to me any noise, sound, or word he could manage.  I probably did look like crazed overbearing mother saying "BAAA.  THE SHEEP-- SHEEEEEP-- CAN YOU SAY SHEEEEEEP-- THE SHEEP-- SHEEEEEEP--- SAYS BAAA.  BAAAA."  But that's what was best for him and for what he needed to know then.  And, no, he didn't specifically need to know that a sheep says baa.  But he needed to hear the sounds, have them carefully enunciated, and understand that objects have names.

My older daughter, on the other hand, was very vocal and speaking sentences at 15 months.  By 18 months you could have a real conversation with her, and she could say very complex sentences.  However, the world of an 18 month old is pretty limited, and serious conversations about politics and theater were out.  So the funny thing is that we did end up having conversations very similar conversations to the sheep one up above, though not as repetitive without the shouting and enunciation didn't matter quite so much.  But, really, there isn't really much to talk about with a little kid, except asking them questions they can answer.

[happysmileylady]

Originally Posted by belltree 

Happysmileylady, iI do get it if there are some letters or numbers in a Kindergarten . But honestly, even then, why not have paintings, drawings, craftwork up on the walls? Things to make the room comfortable. I never had letters on the walls in all my school life and I still learned to read.

Well given that the shots you were seeing I am guessing were not panoramas of the whole room, I don't think we can say that they DIDN'T also have paintings and such up...

But, then I have to ask, why are paintings and doing crafts ok, but pictures of the ABCs aren't?

[belltree]

Honestly, I think less is often more. Most US classrooms are just too much distraction even for me.

NYCVeg, yes, knowing numbers helps. But what makes you think, that one has to learn them in a preschool setting or via playbased learning? Most German kids just learn numbers through daily life. Most can write their names, and some, who are interested can read and do some arithmetic. Knowing how to count and understanding numbers are two very different things. I feel the US preschools focus on these superficial achievements, but hardly reach any depth.

All I am saying is, by spending hours of training kids via playbased learning to learn things they might not be ready for, they don't learn something else. Learning to read, when a child is ready, happens in a matter of weeks. And I mean reading and not just finding letters.

[NYCVeg]

Originally Posted by belltree 

NYCVeg, yes, knowing numbers helps. But what makes you think, that one has to learn them in a preschool setting or via playbased learning? Most German kids just learn numbers through daily life. Most can write their names, and some, who are interested can read and do some arithmetic. Knowing how to count and understanding numbers are two very different things. I feel the US preschools focus on these superficial achievements, but hardly reach any depth.

I absolutely don't think that one has to learn numbers or letters in a preschool setting. I never said I did. My daughter learned most of her numbers and letters at home. But when I went back to work and she was in full-time preschool, numbers and letters were also part of the day-to-day life of her preschool. My point was simply that I think there is nothing WRONG with reinforcement/learning of those concepts in a classroom setting, especially if the reinforcement is achieved through natural, real-life activities and interactions. Drilling, flashcards, worksheets--I absolutely wouldn't want that for my child at a very young age. But numbers aren't in and of themselves "academic" anymore than flowers, colors, or animals are.

I've only had experience at one preschool, but I'm not sure that I would agree that US preschools FOCUS on these "superficial achievements." My daughter received a "progress report" twice a year and it covered a huge range of skills and developmental milestones. The main focus, actually, was social and emotional development, although it also covered gross and fine motor skills, as well as a few of the markers above (counting, identifying letters). Her teachers always had something to share with me about her day--a picture she drew, an activity she enjoyed, a problem she had with another child--but no one ever said to me, "Congratulations! Your kid can count to 100!" 

Finally, I don't think my dd enjoyed learning to write her name, for instance, because she expected lavish praise from me. She enjoyed learning to do it because writing is something she sees adults and big kids doing and because young children love the sense of mastery they get from achieving ANY task--whether its learning to write their name, figuring out how to swing across the monkey bars, learning to tie their own shoes, whatever. And all of those tasks require practice, reinforcement, and some guidance from an adult. 
 

[mistymama]

I understand where you are coming from, because I felt the very same way. I was very anti-early academics and sent my son to Waldorf preschool - I planned to do Waldorf through Kindy at least, maybe longer.

But he didn't thrive there - we didn't know it yet then, but he has Aspergers. He needed more structure and early academics. He's thriving in public school - and yes, thrived on the early introduction of reading, which I was so against.  Like everything else AP, you have to listen to your child and do what they need.

Not that all of your friends have little Aspies like mine, lol, but you never know. I do agree that the trend towards early introduction of those things is disturbing to me, but there are kids that do really well with it. I took my son out of Waldorf after a year, and into a preschool program that taught reading, math, etc ... and he was reading in a week and loving it. I don't know .. there is something to be said for it if you are going to follow the public school/mainstream path because in Kindy, nearly every kid in his class was like him, and already somewhat reading (if not very well) before the school year started.

My son is 8, going on 9 and will be entering 3rd grade. I can easily imagine how miserable he would be in Waldorf. I guess I'm more open minded now about early academics. No, I don't like thinking of preschoolers sitting at desks .. and yes, I love the beauty of Waldorf. But I also see some of the benefits of the more structured programs, and I know many of them are still play based most of the day, even if they do introduce academics.  It's not nearly as clear cut to me as it used to me, that's for sure.