Vit K: injection or oral does? - Page 2

[wolfmama31]

Oh, just remembered the other thing the childbirth teacher (Penny Simkin) said... That newborns start producing Vit K after the first 7 days. Guess it's still in small quantity but there's something. I wonder if that's why the long term-ness of the injection doesn't matter as much?

[greenmama66]

Originally Posted by wolfmama31 

I just found an awesome pediatric naturopath yesterday (that my insurance actually covers!) for my babe who's soon to be born. Asked her about the Vit K (she's a midwife too) and she said she totally supports her clients doing drops not injection. I bought the drops she uses because I was there and wanted to cross it off my list. It's Scientific Botanicals brand, K-Quinone, K-1. 1 drop=2mg. The dosage she suggests is 3 drops, once a week, for the first 6 weeks. She sneaks the first 3 drops in at the newborn exam after birth. I asked her about me taking it and Babe getting it through breastmilk and she said you can do that but only a small amount that gets through.

My childbirth teacher said that all the vit k drops she's seen given seem to taste awful to newborns (makes sense) and she's not so sure that anything gets in but I trust this Dr and her dosing. The vit is in a olive oil base which couldn't be THAT bad for brand new intestines....

Good info- thanks!

[mamahen2coop]

Originally Posted by wolfmama31 

I just found an awesome pediatric naturopath yesterday (that my insurance actually covers!) for my babe who's soon to be born. Asked her about the Vit K (she's a midwife too) and she said she totally supports her clients doing drops not injection. I bought the drops she uses because I was there and wanted to cross it off my list. It's Scientific Botanicals brand, K-Quinone, K-1. 1 drop=2mg. The dosage she suggests is 3 drops, once a week, for the first 6 weeks. She sneaks the first 3 drops in at the newborn exam after birth. I asked her about me taking it and Babe getting it through breastmilk and she said you can do that but only a small amount that gets through.

My childbirth teacher said that all the vit k drops she's seen given seem to taste awful to newborns (makes sense) and she's not so sure that anything gets in but I trust this Dr and her dosing. The vit is in a olive oil base which couldn't be THAT bad for brand new intestines....

Who is your naturopath and where is she? You can PM me if you want, Maybe I can get it from her too. It's a trek for me over the water via ferry, but maybe worth it as I'm leaning towards no Vit K at all.

[SuburbanHippie]

Originally Posted by wolfmama31 

I just found an awesome pediatric naturopath yesterday (that my insurance actually covers!) for my babe who's soon to be born. Asked her about the Vit K (she's a midwife too) and she said she totally supports her clients doing drops not injection. I bought the drops she uses because I was there and wanted to cross it off my list. It's Scientific Botanicals brand, K-Quinone, K-1. 1 drop=2mg. The dosage she suggests is 3 drops, once a week, for the first 6 weeks. She sneaks the first 3 drops in at the newborn exam after birth. I asked her about me taking it and Babe getting it through breastmilk and she said you can do that but only a small amount that gets through.

My childbirth teacher said that all the vit k drops she's seen given seem to taste awful to newborns (makes sense) and she's not so sure that anything gets in but I trust this Dr and her dosing. The vit is in a olive oil base which couldn't be THAT bad for brand new intestines....

I'm also going to buy Scientific Botanicals from here.  My OB was pretty unhappy when I told her I was going to decline Vit K so I told her that I would try to seek out an oral version.  I had planned on just supplementing myself, but she looked at me like I had 2 heads.  I hate being her only "crunchy" patient.

[greenmama66]

Senior midwife who came over today doesn't agree with giving vitamin K unless there's an issue, in fact she doesn't agree with a lot out there and is real hands off- this makes me feel good!

[DrBrockBaca]

This was a really difficult decision for me, but we ultimately decided to go with the shot. I am concerned about the oral drops because those are still an artificial chemical, and I don't want that in my baby's digestive system because I am afraid it might disturb the colonization of the baby's intestines with friendly bacteria. There are no studies about how the oral vitamin K affects gut bacteria, but scientists are just beginning to understand the monumental lifelong importance of gut bacteria. Research has shown that the conditions of birth and the baby's feeding (breastfeeding vs. bottle-feeding) drastically affects the gut bacteria. So I don't want anything going in my baby's digestive system except breastmilk.

If we didn't do the shot, I would just take the alfalfa tablets to raise my own levels of vitamin K and thus the levels in my breastmilk.

But considering the weight of the scientific evidence, I think the shot is a fairly safe option - there is no evidence of negative side effects, despite concerns about the pain to the baby. I know a lot of people are against any unnecessary interventions, which is fine, but as a research scientist I can tell you that the vitamin K shot is nothing at all like a vaccine or prophylactic antibiotics for GBS - the benefits of the vitamin K shot really do seem to outweigh the risks. I'm still a little bit uneasy about giving it to my baby since it is probably unnecessary and the research on the long-term effects is not as robust as I would like, but it still seems like it is the safer thing to do in this case. 

[reborn]

I'm declining the injection and I purchased oral vit K from the apothecary to have on-hand in case of severe bruising at birth.  Otherwise I don't intend to give it to our baby at all.  My midwife suspects a possible correlation between vitamin K at birth and jaundice.  She says she has never seen a baby who DIDN'T have vitamin K get jaundice.

BTW, the instructions on the oral vit K for typical use say 2 drops at birth, 2 drops at 10 days, 2 drops at 4 weeks. (Given to baby, not mom)

[reborn]

@DrBrockBaca-- interesting point about the gut bacteria issue.  More reasons I will def not be using vit K unless there is severe bruising/trauma evident at birth.

[mamahen2coop]

Originally Posted by reborn 

@DrBrockBaca-- interesting point about the gut bacteria issue.  More reasons I will def not be using vit K unless there is severe bruising/trauma evident at birth.

Originally Posted by DrBrockBaca 

This was a really difficult decision for me, but we ultimately decided to go with the shot. I am concerned about the oral drops because those are still an artificial chemical, and I don't want that in my baby's digestive system because I am afraid it might disturb the colonization of the baby's intestines with friendly bacteria. There are no studies about how the oral vitamin K affects gut bacteria, but scientists are just beginning to understand the monumental lifelong importance of gut bacteria. Research has shown that the conditions of birth and the baby's feeding (breastfeeding vs. bottle-feeding) drastically affects the gut bacteria. So I don't want anything going in my baby's digestive system except breastmilk.

If we didn't do the shot, I would just take the alfalfa tablets to raise my own levels of vitamin K and thus the levels in my breastmilk.

But considering the weight of the scientific evidence, I think the shot is a fairly safe option - there is no evidence of negative side effects, despite concerns about the pain to the baby. I know a lot of people are against any unnecessary interventions, which is fine, but as a research scientist I can tell you that the vitamin K shot is nothing at all like a vaccine or prophylactic antibiotics for GBS - the benefits of the vitamin K shot really do seem to outweigh the risks. I'm still a little bit uneasy about giving it to my baby since it is probably unnecessary and the research on the long-term effects is not as robust as I would like, but it still seems like it is the safer thing to do in this case. 

Now I'm wondering what you have to say about GBS!

[DrBrockBaca]

Now I'm wondering what you have to say about GBS!

The research on prophylactic antibiotics for GBS does not clearly support its use. Only about .5 percent of infants of GBS-positive mothers contract GBS during birth, and only a small fraction of those become ill or die from it, particularly if the infants are healthy and full-term. So you end up giving antibiotics to hundreds or even thousands of women and babies to try to prevent one infection. But the real problem is that the antibiotics actually CAUSE antibiotic-resistant infections of other types, such as E. coli. This is extremely dangerous, because you have then created a situation in which bacteria that happened to be present and would not have likely been harmful have received just enough antibiotics to become resistant such that the resulting infection cannot be treated. Several studies have shown that antibiotics during labor increase the risk for antibiotic-resistant E. coli infections to the same extent that they prevent GBS infections, so the overall rate of neonatal death stays the same - i.e., there is no real benefit to taking the antibiotics. And in the event that your baby is one of the 199 out of 200 who would not have contracted GBS anyway, you have probably interfered to a great extent with the colonization of your baby's healthy gut bacteria by giving it antibiotics at birth. No studies have been conducted to determine the short-term or long-term effects of antibiotics during labor on the baby's gut bacteria, but it follows very clearly from other research that the antibiotics will interfere with the natural colonization process. Scientists just don't know if and how easily babies can recover from this. But given the importance of gut bacteria for the baby's immune system, risk for allergies, digestive function, overall health, and even risk for obesity, I would be extremely cautious about doing anything to hinder the healthy colonization of my baby's gut. 

This is a good summary article, which was originally publishing in Mothering magazine: 

http://www.healthychild.com/birth/treating-group-b-strep-are-antibiotics-necessary/

It references many academic journal articles which you may or may not have access to (I had to get a lot of them at work where we have journal subscriptions), but I would recommend further research if you are GBS positive and considering the antibiotics. 

[reborn]

But the real problem is that the antibiotics actually CAUSE antibiotic-resistant infections of other types, such as E. coli. This is extremely dangerous, because you have then created a situation in which bacteria that happened to be present and would not have likely been harmful have received just enough antibiotics to become resistant such that the resulting infection cannot be treated. 

Scary!!!  I'm GBS+ and declining antibiotics for me... hopefully we won't need to transfer to the hospital so I can avoid antibiotics for baby... not sure if I'll have the option to decline?  I suppose if I try hard enough and the baby isn't showing signs of infection I can decline anything.

I'm planning to do the Hibbiclens flush instead.  Any thoughts about that, DrBrockBaca?

[DrBrockBaca]

I'm planning to do the Hibbiclens flush instead.  Any thoughts about that, DrBrockBaca?

I haven't seen any studies on the effectiveness of the Hibbiclens flush (I don't think there are any), but I would probably try it if I were you as well. Also make sure you are taking a really good women's probiotic (orally). I would consider vaginally inserting probiotics as well - especially because the Hibbiclens can get rid of the good bacteria in your vagina along with the GBS. There is no easy solution to balancing your microflora...

And just make sure that if your baby does end up needing antibiotics (or being given antibiotics for any reason) that he/she receives the full dosage. While it is better to avoid antibiotics if you can help it, a small dose can be more dangerous than a larger dose because smaller/incomplete doses just breed resistance. Talk to your midwife and/or doctor about your concerns for the baby's gut bacteria and risk of antibiotic resistant infection. These are topics that any good doctor should be open to discussing with you and helping you decide what to do - they are both important issues in medical research these days. But hopefully you won't have any problems! Good luck!

[samhope]

Thankful for this thread.  We decided today to not go with the oral dosage b/c of the inconsistency in dosage guidelines and b/c of the gut flora issue.  Both my son and I have food allergies which I would love to do everything to avoid with this next one.  We will go with the shot if there is bruising at the birth.  Otherwise we are going to take our chances (midwife said 5 in 100,000).

[DrBrockBaca]

Both my son and I have food allergies which I would love to do everything to avoid with this next one.  We will go with the shot if there is bruising at the birth.  Otherwise we are going to take our chances (midwife said 5 in 100,000).

This is getting off-topic for this post, but I just thought I would mention that many scientists believe there is a causal link between exposure to genetically modified foods (peanuts, soy, corn, etc.) and food allergies. You may already be aware of this, but many people aren't, so I always try to raise awareness of the issue in case you are interested in researching it further. So it might be a really good idea to keep your new baby from being exposed to genetically modified foods as long as possible, even through your breastmilk. There is also strong evidence from animal studies that genetically modified foods alter gut bacteria. 

[mamahen2coop]

Originally Posted by DrBrockBaca 

This is getting off-topic for this post, but I just thought I would mention that many scientists believe there is a causal link between exposure to genetically modified foods (peanuts, soy, corn, etc.) and food allergies. You may already be aware of this, but many people aren't, so I always try to raise awareness of the issue in case you are interested in researching it further. So it might be a really good idea to keep your new baby from being exposed to genetically modified foods as long as possible, even through your breastmilk. There is also strong evidence from animal studies that genetically modified foods alter gut bacteria. 

how do you know what foods contain GMO's unless specifically labled No GMO? They seem so insidious

[SuburbanHippie]

If they are certified organic, they are GMO-free.

[DrBrockBaca]

how do you know what foods contain GMO's unless specifically labled No GMO? They seem so insidious

I would avoid eating any processed foods that were not certified organic or labeled no GMO. Obviously, the best thing to do is to avoid processed foods as much as possible. Even some products at health food stores can contain genetically modified corn, soy, and peanuts under a "natural" label. The strongest links to food allergies are with GM soy and peanuts, and soy in particular is in almost every processed food in some form or another. 

[samhope]

You can avoid GM foods by only eating whole organic foods.

[reborn]

Originally Posted by SuburbanHippie 

If they are certified organic, they are GMO-free.

I didn't know this.  Is GMO-free a requirement in order to be certified organic?  My mom and I were just have a convo about this the other day and she was under the impression that foods could be GMO and still labeled "organic".

[DrBrockBaca]

Is GMO-free a requirement in order to be certified organic?  My mom and I were just have a convo about this the other day and she was under the impression that foods could be GMO and still labeled "organic".

Certified organic foods MUST be GMO-free. However, there are still many processed products that have the word organic on them because they are made with SOME organic ingredients, but they contain GMO foods as additional ingredients. You really have to be careful with processed products. Don't think it's GMO-free just because it came from Whole Foods.