Too skimpy clothes? Or others should not look? Paranoia? - Page 6

[2xy]

Originally Posted by beenmum 

Its called Invisable Audience and it was in my adolescent psyche courses. All teens think they are acting or performing to an invisable audience. That everything they do or say is bein watched/listened to and that thier actions matter greatly.

Its a very intresting.

Thanks for giving it a name, although whether all teens do this is debatable. The articles I've read thus far use words like "often" or "tendency."

Specifically, only grade 6 students who had Level 3 social perspective-taking ability showed higher personal fable ideation than did other students. Although a number of grade-related factors might be implicated, the authors favored the possibility that the 6th graders' recent transition from elementary to middle school, combined with their Level 3 social perspective-taking ability, was responsible for the feelings of uniqueness and isolation that are associated with the personal fable. Other researchers have similarly speculated that a disruption in one's social context might increase egocentrism among adolescents and even young adults

Adolescents' search for a sense of personal identity has also been offered as an explanation for their seemingly egocentric thought processes, particularly for their construction of an imaginary audience (e.g., O'Connor, 1995; O'Connor & Nikolic, 1990; Protinsky & Wilkerson, 1986). This third theoretical perspective on the imaginary audience and personal fable suggests that adolescents become self-conscious and concerned with what others think of them when they themselves begin to question who they are, how they fit in, and what they will do with their lives.

The preceding words suggest that environment plays into this, which is what I was saying. Adolescents in present day (in developed countries) have the luxury of questioning who they are and what they will do with their lives. Social disruption is a way of life for many children. Different teachers every year, often different faces in the classroom, too. Kids who move frequently (also a modern phenomenon) feel it even more intensely.

Do adolescents routinely feel that others are always watching and evaluating them, and that they are wholly different from other people? At present, the answer that seems to emerge from textbooks that deal with adolescence is "yes," although the evidence for that answer is questionable, and extant measures of the constructs leave little hope that the evidence will become any clearer.

 

Revisiting The Imaginary Audience And Personal Fable Constructs Of Adolescent Egocentrism: A Conceptual Review

[mtiger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by APToddlerMama 

Funny you should say that because I initially posted to check your psych 101 textbook but decided that was my snarky, mean, crabby pregnant mind telling me to do that and deleted it.  But in all seriousness-- yes, it is developmental and it is in your psych 101 textbook.  Not necessarily being hypersensitive about how you look, but thinking that others are much more interested and concerned with YOU in general.  It can be anything from "everyone noticed I tripped in the hallway even though there were 100000 other people in the hallway all completely unaware" to "everyone is noticing that my hair is a 16th of an inch shorter on the left side."  It is just the general idea that others care or are judging a lot more than they are. 
 

Originally Posted by APToddlerMama 

Which is why I deleted it.  You'll most certainly encounter the concept in your developmental psych class and then maybe you can decide if a researched and proven theory is more or less meaningful than your own theory that teenagers didn't have time to be egocentric back when they were having babies at 14. 

But... you still made a point of adding that it is in a Psych 101 text. So... you really did not delete it. The snark was quite evident. IMO.
 

[APToddlerMama]

Well, I only replied AFTER she said she never learned that in her psych class as if that meant that what myself and several other posters have stated about that being typical teenage development was bs. 

[2xy]

Originally Posted by APToddlerMama 

Well, I only replied AFTER she said she never learned that in her psych class as if that meant that what myself and several other posters have stated about that being typical teenage development was bs. 

You replied before others chimed in about it, IIRC (I'm too tired to go back through the thread). And "typical teenage development" and a "stereotype" can look quite similar. I'm simply questioning that it's typical teenage development. I think much more studying would need to happen across many cultures before this can be called a true developmental stage. For some reason I just can't picture this anywhere else besides in a nation with privilege, and my own experience suggests that this is something more prevalent in kids who go to school.

My discussion of this phenomenon wasn't about you at all, so no need to take it personally.

eta: My psych textbook was not something I'd consider hanging on to, so I no longer have it. It was probably sold back to the bookstore the night of my last class.

[journeymom]

It was all part of how I was processing my own sexuality and it actually had piss all to do with the guys

   I felt similarly when I was a teen. 

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

I'm biased against this topic anyway because while I could care less what others wear DH and I are in agreement that DD won't be owning a 2 piece bathing suit until she can buy one with her own money. She just turned 2 and got a 2 piece from my step MIL...I was so pissed.

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

I haven't read the whole thread, but have noticed several comments along the lines of "teenagers are old enough" and "she's not five years old" when it comes to telling her to get over herself.

yeah, and I'm not seeing how any of that would fall under "gentle discipline." I have 2 teens, and sometimes I do need to tell them things, but I would never say "get over yourself."  That just doesn't line up with how I've raised them because it is so very disrespectful. I don't think that GD needs to stop just because kids get boobs and hormones.

Originally Posted by beenmum 

If the girls were that concerned about someone taking their pictures I would have called the police also. With the use of cell phone cameras people can access your childrens pictures for any purpose. And that is a scary thought no matter what they are wearing.

yeah, and with my phone, I could take a picture of someone, email to myself, and then delete it from my phone.

This kid sounds like she has some problems, but teens being aware of what it going on around them is a good thing. I would definitely want my DDs to be noticing what others are doing at the pool, to be aware of their surroundings.

(for the record, both my teens girls wear one pieces when they are practicing or racing, but one wears a bikini when swimming just for fun. They are both kick-a$$ swimmers, which is a lot more important to be than whether their tummies show. )

[APToddlerMama]

Originally Posted by 2xy 

 I think much more studying would need to happen across many cultures before this can be called a true developmental stage.

It already has been.  But, whatever.  I doubt this is helpful to OP so I'm bowing out.

[Amys1st]

Love this quote....

 

Originally Posted by Smokering 

Bah. I'm frumpy, and I got a husband. :p

OK, back to discussion....

[choli]

Originally Posted by beenmum 

Its called Invisable Audience and it was in my adolescent psyche courses. All teens think they are acting or performing to an invisable audience. That everything they do or say is bein watched/listened to and that thier actions matter greatly.

Its a very intresting.

I can honestly say that I don't recall ever acting to an invisible audience as a teen. Haven't really noticed it that much with my two teens either.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by beenmum 

Its called Invisable Audience and it was in my adolescent psyche courses. All teens think they are acting or performing to an invisable audience. That everything they do or say is bein watched/listened to and that thier actions matter greatly.

Its a very intresting.

I really don't think it's all. It's some. I remember of friend of mine was obsessed with what she wore and was convinced that other people got tired of seeing her in certain clothes, but at the time, I thought it was weird.

I see it with some of my kids' friends, but not all, and not all to the same degree. I see it a little with one of my DDs, but not at all with the other. (Granted, she's quirky, but she is a teen!)

And I suspect that Facebook has made it worse. If someone is already thinking that way, and then they can post every little thing on the internet for the world to see, it seems like it would just feed the problem.

[Dr.Worm]

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom 

How should a person who works on a corner (or dresses like one) be treated?  I don't want my daughter dressing in skimpy clothing, but I'm not liking the attitude that if she does, it's ok to treat her a certain way.  I have a friend who dresses in clothes that I find too revealing for my taste, but she deserves every bit of respect as anyone else.  

This isn't as much in response to the post about the swimming pool incident (poor guy!), but just looking at our attitudes in general that some people deserve maltreatment based on whatever we think justifies it.

Yes!! I also don't like skimpy clothes for myself or for my dd.  I wouldn't take her out and buy her a bathing suit like the OP described.  Even if she told me that her friends all do...oh well.  But no, I do not agree with the idea that people get to treat you like you aren't a good person because you are wearing such-and-such.  And that's why if a girl is wearing a certain outfit and is raped people think well, she shouldn't have been dressed like a slut.  And I also feel bad for grandpa..how embarassing.

[MusicianDad]

One thing we need to remember about invisible audience... Just because it's a teen who feels like she/he is being watched by someone and it's creeping them out, doesn't mean that it's all in his/her head. There are plenty of people out there who think it's perfectly ok to ogle a teen, and the teen (usually female) has a right to say "some weird guy is staring/taking pictures/acting weird to me, how can I make it stop?" And be heard, and believed. No matter what she/he is wearing or how they are acting.

[lovingmommyhood]

That poor guy. Seriously. Basically called out as a pervert for absolutely no reason? Fourteen year old girls are fourteen year old girls, I get that. But if I were your sister I'd be having a serious talk with her about what image her daughter wants to put out to the world and that is something a person has to think long and hard about. If you're dressed provacatively people will be more prone to look. It's just the way it is. Does that make it okay for old men to look at young girls? Hell no. Does it make it the girl's fault if an old man is oogling her? Hell no. Do we all have to be aware that perverts do exist and the risk is out there that they will look/take pictures and factor it in to how our daughters are dressing? IMO, hell yes. 

[MusicianDad]

Clothes have little to do with it. She could be covered head to toe with not an inch of skin showing and still provide "temptation" to perverts.

[lovingmommyhood]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad 

Clothes have little to do with it. She could be covered head to toe with not an inch of skin showing and still provide "temptation" to perverts.

That is probably true. I guess I don't know the mind of a pervert. (I'm not implying you do, but perhaps you've read more on it.) I was just making an assumption. 

[lunarlady]

While I feel sad for the niece, i think there is little the OP can do about it. This girl is being raised to believe that her looks and her clothing are the most important things in the world for her success in life. Girls who feel like that are constantly paranoid about their appearance. So while she may not feel comfortable in the swimsuit, she will wear it anyway because she feels she HAS to in order to get a BF/get married/be successful. This message is coming from her peers, her mom, the media, and our over sexualized society. So she is being told that putting herself on display is important, but she is uncomfortable being on display. Sad. The worst part? Most girls like that never feel like they look good enough. There is always something wrong with their bodies or their clothing. They are never 100% confident, although they pretend to be. This can make them toxic to their peers because they want their choices validated by seeing others copy them.

I, like most MDC moms, hope to raise my girls to see the value of themselves regardless of the packaging they are born into. It took me many years to embrace the notion that my worth is not tied to my appearance. For several years this looked like grungy, ill fitting clothing I used to say "F it. If I will never be good enough than I'm not going to pretend to try." I shaved off my hair, peirced my tounge, got a tattoo...all in the name of non conformity. For those of us not traditionally beautiful, the path is a little easier. But for those who are close to socitey's perfection I think it is even harder to resist trying to be "all that."

Even with my kids I see it. My little girl is "cute," "pretty," "beautiful," "charming" while my friend's little boy is "smart," "cleaver," "strong," or a "little man.". Raising little girls to resist being objectified is a serious challenge.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad 

One thing we need to remember about invisible audience... Just because it's a teen who feels like she/he is being watched by someone and it's creeping them out, doesn't mean that it's all in his/her head. There are plenty of people out there who think it's perfectly ok to ogle a teen, and the teen (usually female) has a right to say "some weird guy is staring/taking pictures/acting weird to me, how can I make it stop?" And be heard, and believed. No matter what she/he is wearing or how they are acting.

Teens have a right to feel safe; men have a right to enjoy a fun day at the pool with grandkids without getting accused of "perving" on someone.

I won't dispute that this girl was within her legal "rights" when she called the cops on that poor man.

I know there's no law on the books that says everyone "has" to take into account the feelings of others; that's just something I believe in encouraging in my own children -- and, no, that doesn't mean that they should ever tolerate feeling unsafe just to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

I stand by my previous statement that I think the girl's mom is the only "perv" in this case.

[lovingmommyhood]

 ITA ^

[mammal_mama]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, lovingmommyhood!

Originally Posted by MusicianDad 

There are plenty of people out there who think it's perfectly ok to ogle a teen, and the teen (usually female) has a right to say "some weird guy is staring/taking pictures/acting weird to me, how can I make it stop?" And be heard, and believed. No matter what she/he is wearing or how they are acting.

I also wanted to respond directly to this part of your comment. According to the OP, the teen's mom felt that the man wasn't behaving in any way that her daughter would have objected to, had he been a cute boy.

Of course, the OP also explained that the other people at the pool backed up this grandpa and verified that he wasn't behaving at all inappropriately, and I have a feeling that, had a 40 or 50-plus man been behaving like a stereotypical turned-on teenaged boy (I know that many teenaged boys can be turned on without acting on it; I'm specifically talking about the stereotype of "young men on the make"), this would have stood out to everyone at the pool.

But, to get back to my point, whatever this girl thought this man was doing, apparently it did not constitute what even she would call true sexual harassment, because it would have been okay if the so called perpetrator had been young and cute! Surely we're not okay with being raped, harassed, or treated in any way disrespectfully, just so long as the criminal is a perfect ten!

Do we really have a right to dictate who can feel sexual arousal? -- and I'm not saying that it sounds like this man was aroused, it sounds like his attention was focused on his grandkids and he didn't even notice the girl 'til she forced her presence onto his radar by calling the police, just that it seems rather unfair to act like these feelings are "privileges" that are only afforded to the young and cute. Anyone else experiencing a normal reaction to sexual stimuli is "some weird guy."

I should clarify that I don't see it as a normal reaction, ever, to act aggressively or disrespectfully toward someone; I just do think it's normal that sometimes there are things that can turn us on, and maybe some of us are pretty adept at hiding it, but an aroused man in swimming trunks may stand out, even if he has no interest in actually pursuing the person whose near-naked body stimulated his state of arousal.

[APToddlerMama]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad 

One thing we need to remember about invisible audience... Just because it's a teen who feels like she/he is being watched by someone and it's creeping them out, doesn't mean that it's all in his/her head. There are plenty of people out there who think it's perfectly ok to ogle a teen, and the teen (usually female) has a right to say "some weird guy is staring/taking pictures/acting weird to me, how can I make it stop?" And be heard, and believed. No matter what she/he is wearing or how they are acting.

I completely agree with you (for once ;)) MusicianDad.  It is truly unfortunate that this guy was pulled into this scenario if he wasn't doing anything inappropriate, and it sounds like he wasn't, but I think we also need to keep in mind that this sort of thing happens frequently enough that our daughters need to know that they can and should be heard if they're feeling creeped out.