Too skimpy clothes? Or others should not look? Paranoia? - Page 5

[2lilsweetfoxes]

I actually feel sort of sorry for the child (OP's niece).  14 is a hard age.  You feel self-conscious about everything.  You feel as if all eyes are on you.  But, I know plenty of times that I never noticed something (like a zit) on someone until they pointed it out.  And to have a mother who insists that in order to be "accepted", you have to wear skimpy clothing to attract boys and get a boyfriend.  I never had a boyfriend, nor been on a date, until I was a senior in high school.  I married (someone else) many years later.  However, it really depends on how you are raised.  Had the Air Force not permitted dependents to go to Turkey when my dad was stationed there (1991-1993), I would have had to move in with my mother.  Her attitude was very similar to the OP's sister.  I would not have been surprised if I'd have had a "boyfriend" at 14 and been pregnant soon after.  Honestly, I didn't really care about boys at that age.  Instead, during that time, I was busy with track and all that stuff.  I'm the weirdo that insisted on wearing long pants-leggings or tights- under my track uniform because it was "too skimpy".

[2xy]

Originally Posted by APToddlerMama 

Funny you should say that because I initially posted to check your psych 101 textbook but decided that was my snarky, mean, crabby pregnant mind telling me to do that and deleted it.  But in all seriousness-- yes, it is developmental and it is in your psych 101 textbook.  Not necessarily being hypersensitive about how you look, but thinking that others are much more interested and concerned with YOU in general.  It can be anything from "everyone noticed I tripped in the hallway even though there were 100000 other people in the hallway all completely unaware" to "everyone is noticing that my hair is a 16th of an inch shorter on the left side."  It is just the general idea that others care or are judging a lot more than they are. 
 

Yes, it is snarky to assume that everyone has taken a psych course.

I'm being forced to take developmental psych in the Fall, and maybe we will cover it there, but I'm certain we didn't cover it in Psych 101. And I still think this is something created by society and is not truly developmental. Prior to this last century, "teenagers" were having babies and were learning trades and working to feed their families. They didn't have time for egocentric behavior. I think that any egocentrism, acting out, rebellion....all those things occur because teenagers are infantilized by society and nature didn't intend that.

[mattemma04]

Shame for that camera phone grandpa,but pervs come in all ages. IMO,if she chooses to wear skimpy cloths then she should expect others to look,and perhaps even take photos. At at 14 surely she is aware of sexual desires,and how she dresses can affect the responses of others. If she is not aware then someone should educate her so she can make the choice to contine or not.

[Smithie]

Encountering a hooker (or somebody dressed like a hooker) doesn't mean you should act like a john. The rules of social engagement don't change based on what other people are wearing. When in doubt, treat a stranger the want you'd want your mother/father/son/daughter to be treated, and you'll never go wrong.

Staring at someone who is scantily clad is not "acting like a John." Once again, people who dress that way are looking for attention. Either they are pleased with people staring at them, or they are pleased that they can complain about someone staring at them. It's all about attention. And thanks, but I don't need some patronizing lecture about how to treat strangers on the street.

If you calibrate your treatment of people based on what they're wearing, or allow your children to do so, then yes, you need a lecture about how to treat strangers on the street (or child's new friend who wears the short skirts, or the mom at church whose top seems a little low to you, or whoever). 

It's not about other people and what you think they "are looking for." It's about you, your personal standards of behavior, and the way you are training up your children. 

[2xy]

Originally Posted by mattemma04 

Shame for that camera phone grandpa,but pervs come in all ages. IMO,if she chooses to wear skimpy cloths then she should expect others to look,and perhaps even take photos.

I think you didn't read the OP very well.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by Smithie 

Staring at someone who is scantily clad is not "acting like a John." Once again, people who dress that way are looking for attention. Either they are pleased with people staring at them, or they are pleased that they can complain about someone staring at them. It's all about attention. And thanks, but I don't need some patronizing lecture about how to treat strangers on the street.

If you calibrate your treatment of people based on what they're wearing, or allow your children to do so, then yes, you need a lecture about how to treat strangers on the street (or child's new friend who wears the short skirts, or the mom at church whose top seems a little low to you, or whoever). 

It's not about other people and what you think they "are looking for." It's about you, your personal standards of behavior, and the way you are training up your children. 

Where did I say that *I* treat people based on how they're dressed? I'm talking about society in general, and you are attacking my character? You don't know me OR my children, so you know where you can shove your judgment.

[new2this]

Originally Posted by Smithie 

Staring at someone who is scantily clad is not "acting like a John." Once again, people who dress that way are looking for attention. Either they are pleased with people staring at them, or they are pleased that they can complain about someone staring at them. It's all about attention. And thanks, but I don't need some patronizing lecture about how to treat strangers on the street.

If you calibrate your treatment of people based on what they're wearing, or allow your children to do so, then yes, you need a lecture about how to treat strangers on the street (or child's new friend who wears the short skirts, or the mom at church whose top seems a little low to you, or whoever). 

It's not about other people and what you think they "are looking for." It's about you, your personal standards of behavior, and the way you are training up your children. 

Doesn't mean that the person wearing the skimpy clothes shouldn't expect to get the attention either unwanted or wanted(and even wanted I don't believe they really want it in most cases).And since its society that makes it that way maybe the person wearing/dressing in such a way should take a step back and say how would I want people to treat me. Will I get respect wearing this or will I be treated in such a way that will effect me. If they don't care then they won't be offended and will rock the outfit proudly. Sadly though that is rarely the case. 

So yeah its not really about the treatment of other but being responsible for our own actions and setting up how people will look at us and treat us. After a certain extent you can't keep blaming the other person for hurting you when you don't do anything to change it. 

I rather be proactive in situations like this then wait till something happens. Because while this time grandpa wasn't taking pictures. Some other person could be and could manipulate her into thinking this is a great thing and things could be way worse. 

[fyrwmn]

how sad that this 14 yr old is being brought up to think that her worth is wrapped up in what she wears, how popular she is, and given the impression that she NEEDS a man to complete her. my sister is raising her 4yr old like that. already at 4 she's wearing little short shorts with her bum cheeks hanging out. i guess it's no wonder since the rest of us have spoken to my sister for years about her attire. she's one to show up at my grandmother's house for thanksgiving with her little bity bug bites hanging out of her shirt, skin tight jeans, etc. she lives with my parents and they raise my neice while she's out living it up since she got divorced at 23. the marriage lasted a whole 1.5 yrs, of which most of it she lived with my parents, and her dd was her attempt at saving the marriage.

my dd is being raised much more conservatively. she comments about how her cousin doesn't dress modestly (a word we use often) but we are also trying to make her realize that she shouldn't be judgemental of her cousin. meanwhile, my sister (and mother for that matter) constantly pick at me about how we raise dd. according to them, we're too strict, they also comment constantl that dd is too "skinny". she's very tall and this but eats plenty of healthy food. my neice on the other hand is very chubby (which she's still a toddler so i would expect anyways) but eats nothing but crap food and sucks down full sugar juice like it's air. they think we're cruel because we don't give the kids straight juice ever, and even watered down juice is a rarity. i'd rather they're eating whole fruits, which they love anyways.

in our case, we just avoid my sister and neice as much as possible. dd doesn't like neice because of how she acts, and dh and i really dislike her spoiled attitude and don't want her around our kids. i feel bad for her though, as she is a product of how she's being raised. unless things change, i fully expect her to be pregnant by 16 and acting out trying to fill the gaping voids in her life...that's just sad.

[APToddlerMama]

Originally Posted by 2xy 

Yes, it is snarky to assume that everyone has taken a psych course.

I'm being forced to take developmental psych in the Fall, and maybe we will cover it there, but I'm certain we didn't cover it in Psych 101. And I still think this is something created by society and is not truly developmental. Prior to this last century, "teenagers" were having babies and were learning trades and working to feed their families. They didn't have time for egocentric behavior. I think that any egocentrism, acting out, rebellion....all those things occur because teenagers are infantilized by society and nature didn't intend that.

Which is why I deleted it.  You'll most certainly encounter the concept in your developmental psych class and then maybe you can decide if a researched and proven theory is more or less meaningful than your own theory that teenagers didn't have time to be egocentric back when they were having babies at 14. 

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by mamazee 

I can't help seeing this from the grandpa's side is all. They took his phone to check to see if there were any photos of the girls on his camera, and found none, and none in the background. But let's say he didn't notice and she was in the background once or twice, and due to the ill-fitting nature of her bathing suit, there was some breast showing. Is grandpa now on the sex registry list? Is he no longer to be around his grandkids? His life could have been ruined, and at 14 kids have to take a bit of responsibility for their actions.

You make a great point!

I also wanted to repond to the comments, by other posters about "pervs" and people "perping" on other people.

The only "perv" I see in this story is the poor girl's mother! It's perverted to raise a young girl to think that her whole worth is based on looks, popularity, and what men think of her! I won't call the teen girl a "perv" yet because she's still a child and it's not her fault -- but it sounds like she's on the way to perping the same perversions on her own daughter in a few more years (or less) if she doesn't wake up and smell the wonderful coffee smell of the real world that's so full of possibilites for people of all shapes and sizes!

I agree with those who say that fathers and grandpas have a right to go out and have fun with their loved ones, take pictures, the whole bit! They have a right not to have to worry about all kinds of crazy false accusations flying their way.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by mattemma04 

Shame for that camera phone grandpa,but pervs come in all ages. IMO,if she chooses to wear skimpy cloths then she should expect others to look,and perhaps even take photos. At at 14 surely she is aware of sexual desires,and how she dresses can affect the responses of others. If she is not aware then someone should educate her so she can make the choice to contine or not.

IME, this is both true and not true. I can remember playing with fire in that area more than once, without really understanding that I was playing with fire. I got that I looked "hot" in such-and-such outfit, and that guys were checking me out and stuff like that. I didn't get, until reflecting back on it years later, that I was maybe giving some of those guys the impression that I was more available than I was, or that they might have been assuming I was sexually active, etc. Looking back, I know several guys believed I was far more worldly and aware of what was going on than I actually was. And, I actually toned it down some after I did become sexually active. When I was still a virgin, a case could be made that I dressed as if I "worked the street". I didn't, really, but I was definitely going for a sexually amped up look. It was all part of how I was processing my own sexuality and it actually had piss all to do with the guys (and it did take me a few years to realize that they didn't see it that way!).

[mammal_mama]

Mattemma04, I've just reread the part of your statement that I've quoted below, and it really freaks me out. Are you saying that we are "pervs" if our cellphones have a camera function? Really? That gentleman clearly wasn't doing anything wrong, he was just out enjoying a day with his grandkids, and I genuinely hope that this experience of being unfairly investigated by the police isn't going to make him think twice about taking them out for more summertime fun.

I also hope that he doesn't start feeling like he has any less right to a camera phone than all the fourteen year old girls who have them -- many of whom probably don't hestitate to "gawk" and make comments about odd (to them) looking people who catch their attention. By the way, according to what the OP said about the witness accounts, it doesn't sound like he was doing any gawking at the girl anyway. I'm just saying that it wouldn't make him a criminal if he did gawk at someone who looked strange to him. There are certainly enough teens who gawk and make fun of people who don't fit their ideas of normal. Does this mean they should have their cellphones and computers regularly searched by the police? 
 

Originally Posted by mattemma04 

Shame for that camera phone grandpa,but pervs come in all ages.

[Lisa1970]

The mother is ok with teen boys checking out her daughter and such, and niece even says how she is trying to attract a boyfriend. Niece loves to "flaunt it." They just figure older men don't have the right to exist and her daughter should only be looked at by the young hot boys. I just think if you are so scared of ending up in someones picture in whatever you are wearing, then you probably should not be in public in that picture. There is not a ton of difference between being in the picture and just being in public. They still see you. But my sister did make it clear she is fine with a boy gawking and looking and all that if the boy is a cute teenage boy, but not if the boy is a grown man with grandchildren. Niece just assumed because she is so hot, if he was there, he must have been looking at her, because of course, everyone is going to look at hot hot niece (that is the attitude she gives). There was no merit for her accusation toward this man and this was a lot of dramatics aimed at this man who was just trying to be out with his grandkids. I am disgusted by it. And I think if a person is dressed in such a way that they are this paranoid that someone might look at them or take pictures, and that the pictures would be inappropriate, then chances are, the scene is inappropriate. If it is not ok to be in a picture dressed that way, then it is not ok to be in public dressed that way. Either way, people can see her. It is a public pool where people of all ages have the right to be. Ironically, she does have a pool in her own neighborhood, but there is rarely anyone there. If she wanted privacy instead of being out flaunting it, then she would have done it at her own pool in her neighborhood. But she wanted to be out with her friend, flirting with the guys and such.

[beenmum]

If the girls were that concerned about someone taking their pictures I would have called the police also. With the use of cell phone cameras people can access your childrens pictures for any purpose. And that is a scary thought no matter what they are wearing.

[beenmum]

Its called Invisable Audience and it was in my adolescent psyche courses. All teens think they are acting or performing to an invisable audience. That everything they do or say is bein watched/listened to and that thier actions matter greatly.

Its a very intresting.

[woodchick]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama 

Mattemma04, I've just reread the part of your statement that I've quoted below, and it really freaks me out. Are you saying that we are "pervs" if our cellphones have a camera function? Really? That gentleman clearly wasn't doing anything wrong, he was just out enjoying a day with his grandkids, and I genuinely hope that this experience of being unfairly investigated by the police isn't going to make him think twice about taking them out for more summertime fun.

I also hope that he doesn't start feeling like he has any less right to a camera phone than all the fourteen year old girls who have them -- many of whom probably don't hestitate to "gawk" and make comments about odd (to them) looking people who catch their attention. By the way, according to what the OP said about the witness accounts, it doesn't sound like he was doing any gawking at the girl anyway. I'm just saying that it wouldn't make him a criminal if he did gawk at someone who looked strange to him. There are certainly enough teens who gawk and make fun of people who don't fit their ideas of normal. Does this mean they should have their cellphones and computers regularly searched by the police? 
 

I think that she was saying "shame for" and not "shame on" the Grandpa.  As in, it's a shame he was treated that way, but better safe than sorry.  Not shame on that grandpa for taking pictures.
 

[nextcommercial]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama 

Mattemma04, I've just reread the part of your statement that I've quoted below, and it really freaks me out. Are you saying that we are "pervs" if our cellphones have a camera function? Really? That gentleman clearly wasn't doing anything wrong, he was just out enjoying a day with his grandkids, and I genuinely hope that this experience of being unfairly investigated by the police isn't going to make him think twice about taking them out for more summertime fun.

I think she was saying it was a shame FOR the man.  Not shame ON the man.  

Pervs are everywhere... not just the grandfather with a camera.  She wasn't saying the man was a perv or that everyone with a phone camera is a perv... just that they can show up anywhere at any time, and you may never know.  

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by woodchick 

I think that she was saying "shame for" and not "shame on" the Grandpa.  As in, it's a shame he was treated that way, but better safe than sorry.  Not shame on that grandpa for taking pictures.
 

But, actually, that's just as bad in my opinion. How is harassing someone who wasn't breaking any laws being "better safe than sorry?" Safe from what? Safe from getting inadvertently included in the background of some photo he was taking of his grandkids?

Beenmum, you would seriously call the police because someone told you that they thought someone had snapped a picture of them with their cell phone? I can't even understand tripping over something like that as it obviously wouldn't effect me or my child. It's not like that picture has some voodoo connection with the actual me and I'll actually feel something if they're sticking pins into it, or whatever.

Even if they snapped a picture of my face in order to attach it to a photo of a naked lady's body, I wouldn't trip if I happened to see a photo of a supposedly naked me on the Internet. I'd report the site to the authorities, as I'd most certainly do if someone did that with a photo of my child. Trained people are totally capable of examining such a thing and proving that it isn't really me or my child, if it comes down to that.

It makes more sense to report an actual crime that to go around having everyone's camera phone searched just because I think there's a risk that the image of my child or me might have been preserved for some weird purpose.

Of course, I don't blame the girl for feeling like all eyes are on her. I remember what a thrill that used to give me, thinking I was in "danger." However, my parents would have been humiliated if I'd created such a scene and caused such trauma for an innocent person. They most certainly wouldn't have been backing me up and making me feel like I was justified in causing inconvenience for other people "just in case." I do feel sad for this teen because it sounds like her mom, who I see as the actual "perp" in this situation, is actually encouraging her to feel like there's a "perp" around every corner.

Sadly, she doesn't seem to be encouraging her to have a healthy caution regarding the cute boys who are just as likely to be rapists as the old grandpas, and a heck of a lot more likely to find a way to get her to go someplace with them alone.

[new2this]

I actually took the comment in a sarcastic way. like sheesh who does he think he is taking pictures of his own family in a public place. eye roll type thing. 

I really do feel for this girl. 14 is a hard time in girls life. I was already a D cup at that age and had all the guys in my class comment about my breasts. I had the older guys hit on me because I looked at least 18. I never dressed skimpy nor did I have my goods hanging out. I wore jeans and tshrits, or tanks and shorts. So I while I wasn't putting myself out there I was getting the unwanted comments. I couldn't imagine if if I was what more of an impression I would have been putting out there. But on top of this mom encouraging her daughter to be this way. Has she ever been molested or sexually abused in any other way. Even if it was consentual. I mean it seems there is such an emphasis on sexuality and the need to dress a certain way and to get guys and so on. 
 

My SIL was that way. Very sexual. She would take the virgin dorky guy in school and try to have sex with him then not follow through with it then turn around and say oh he tried attacking her. She did it to my brother once and we were all around. So I know it didn't happen of what she accused my brother of doing. 

Wrongfully accusing people of things like that and like getting the cops to look through that guys phone is just wrong. 

[mammal_mama]

Oops! I owe Mattemma04  an apology because I did misread that first part of her post. I see now that she was never in favor of the man's camera-phone getting searched.

However, it looks like there are actually some here who do see this sort of things as being "better safe than sorry."

I don't blame the teen, although for me, the fun was in imagining the whole "danger" scenario with my friends, so I had no thoughts of actually making it known to some complete stranger that he was the "suspect" in our little drama. So it's kind of hard to imagine this girl wanting to take it to the next stage like that.

I was more the type to have a lot to say and then be horrified if someone actually passed along what I was saying to the other person. I still am sort of like that, although of course now I'm much more aware of the reality that things never usually stop with the person you're talking to. Plus I've naturally grown enough integrity (I hope) to know I should follow the basic rule of not saying stuff about others that I wouldn't say to their faces, and of treating others the way I'd like to be treated.

One of my girls had a situation a while back where she felt pretty sure that a neighbor who came to our house stole some money out of her purse. It's possible that the child did this, but dd also wasn't 100% sure about whether she hadn't already spent the money. And this wasn't the only child who'd been in our house. So, I suggested that she a) keep her money in a less accessible place and b) not say anything about this to the girl or to the other kids.

I asked her to think about how she'd feel if someone had accused her of something like this. How could she prove her innocence in such a situation?

I have the same response to comments that a particular guy looks "creepy." I tell her that it's definitely a good idea to turn her bike around and head back home if there's someone out there that she doesn't feel comfortable riding past for any reason. It's always good to follow her instincts about staying away from certain people and coming to me or her dad with any concerns.

But it it would seriously not be cool to be calling the police to have them check out everyone who she thinks might be a bad person. Because, when you accuse someone of being a "perv," how can the accused person prove his innocence? "Lack of evidence" doesn't always satisfy onlookers that the guy who was just searched by the police is really a nice guy.

I mean, how would this girl feel if some mean-spirited kid felt like spreading a rumor that she had some incurable STD? How could she prove that she didn't? It might have some effect on her ability to get a boyfriend; maybe she'd only get called by boys who didn't care about whatever they might get exposed to. I really don't think it's totally impossible for this teen to learn some empathy, and to learn that old granpas are people, too.