Never sleeping. Ever.

[Adaline'sMama]

Hi! I dont think I've ever posted here, but I am finding that Life with a Babe is becoming less and less relevant to DD . She's getting older too fast!

So, DD has ALWAYS kept long hours. Long hours like being up for 16 hours a day when she was 10 months old. But lately, its just been awful. This was yesterday:

8am: wake up
1:30pm: napped in my arms while nursing for about 15 minutes
2:00am: bedtime
8:00 am this morning, wake up.

Any ideas? I NEED her to sleep for more than 6 hours a day. She was up longer than I was, plus I took a nap in the middle of the day and she played in the room while I slept (Im pregnant, and simply cannot stay awake for 18 hours a day). DH and I went to sleep at midnight last night and she crawled all over us and played for about two hours, and DH had to wake up at 7. This kid runs around all day. We go outside. I make her walk pretty much everywhere we go now, because I want to tire her out. Does anyone have any idea why a kid would be inclined to be awake for this many hours a day?

[springmum]

Wow - that sounds rough! and in my opinion it sounds like there is something going on for sure....no way is 6hrs normal.

My DS is 3 and only sleeps 10 (maybe 11) hrs in a 24 hour period....so I can slightly relate to the long hours.

Some thoughts come to mind for me

- food intolerances/allergies. Many kids (mine included) could easily not sleep when a food is bothering them...sometimes even without other "typical" signs, it can really have an affect on sleep.

- teeth. I'm sure there is some on the way, and my DS always laid awake in bed just before a new tooth was breaking the skin...but he never got down to 6 hours.

- other medical problem. Not wanting to worry you, but have you looked into (with a Dr maybe) if there is something else physically going on. Is she healthy, gaining weight, prone to certain illnesses etc.?

Is 6 hours an every night thing at this point? If so, I personally would be a little worried....kids need a lot of sleep to grow properly.

I hope you can get it figured out and get some rest soon!

[McGucks]

Hi Holly, and welcome to Toddlers...I migrated from Babes awhile back for the same reason you mentioned.  Hope you like it here!

6 hours in a 24 hour period sounds really, really scary.  I must not complain ever again about our LO's sleep.  I would imagine you avoid massive amounts of caffeine.

I have one friend whose child slept as you describe, more or less...they didn't find out until he was five or so that he was intolerant to wheat/gluten.  When they corrected his diet, my understanding is that his sleep was much improved.

I would completely crap my drawers if our son only slept as much as you described, and I'm not even pregnant!  I am very sorry you are dealing with this...whew...if you trust your ped., maybe check with him/her.  They will likely have you start with a sleep and food diary for her.

Much good luck and much I'm sorry!

[crunchy_mommy]

OK my DS is a horrible sleeper but he gets way more than 6 hours... He is in the 8-11 hour range. Is she really only sleeping 6 hours a day, or was that just a bad day???? If she's sleeping that little every day, I'd be concerned, and consult the pedi and possibly other specialists...

to you, you must be exhausted!!!

[APToddlerMama]

My son was that way (although not quite as bad...more like 8 hours broken up) and it killed me.  One thing that helped was addressing his food allergies/intolerances.  Dairy was big, as was gluten, soy, corn.  Ultimately, we ended up seeing a neurologist who suggested melatonin which we used occassionally when we were just super exhausted.  I would talk to your ped and request a visit to a specialist...sleep specialist, neurologist, whoever.  Don't tell them you co-sleep and don't tell them you don't CIO.  Because if you go in there and say that, they will automatically assume the problem is with you and not your daughter.  Which doesn't make sense since 6 hours of sleep is insane for any kid, co-sleeping or not.  Good luck.  It does suck.  Happy to tell you that my three year old sleeps more now than he he ever has...

[sosurreal09]

How long has it been going on? My DD has spurts like this during teething/developmental stuff where she will hardly sleep and I go bananas!

[Adaline'sMama]

Well, the six hour nights have only been going on for about a week, but she has never been a big sleeper. She has sometimes slept for 10 hours, but then will take NO naps at all. The past month and a half she will pretty much only nap if she is in my arms. And she wants to nurse all.the.time, which makes me think that Im having a supply issue (Im only about 7 weeks pg, but I have no idea how quickly it can happen). The thing is, she isnt waking up and crying, she is up PLAYING. Pretty much all the time. I would think it was teeth but her whining has rapidly decreased in the past month and there are no bumps on her gums. As far as food intolerances goes, I havent seen any other evidence of it an allergy. I dont think she is really "having trouble" sleeping, I think she just wants to be up and part of the action all.the.time. She is a super super social baby. She has never really had seperation anxiety, and she talks non stop. She is on the go literally, about 14 out of every 24 hours. I really really hope it isnt a food allergy because she is already TINY (17.8 lbs and 28 inches at 15 months) and while Im not getting any flack from her doctors about it, she has suggested that I feed her more fatty foods. She is veg, so we dont feed her meat and she refuses to eat avacados and pretty much all beans. She loves pasta, bread, cereal, grains, cheese, milk, butter, cottage cheese, yogurt, and a million other dairy products and anything with gluten in it, so lets hope I dont havfe to stop feeding her those things

[springmum]

I know you're not wanting to hear this, but after spending a lot of time on the Allergy forum, combined with my own experience (personal & researched reading), and other people I know......I would strongly look at food intolerances - as some previous posters have also suggested.

The thing with food intolerances is that they are very different for every child (symptoms I mean) Sleeping 10 hours or less at her age and being tiny are big red flags for me. She doesn't have to be miserable to be food intolerant. I know a little girl, that as a baby had blood in her stool everyday with horrible poops, and was (still is) the happiest little girl I know......

There is just no way she is going to be able to grow well if she is not sleeping - children grow when they sleep. She may very well not be digesting her food properly, affecting her nutrient absorption, = missing nutrients needed for good sleep and growth.

Changing her diet now will be easier than when she is older, b/c she really doesn't know any different - but you'll have to decide what you think is the right next step. 
 

Do you have a good ND in your area to consult with? - it would be worth the visit I'm sure.

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

Well, the six hour nights have only been going on for about a week, but she has never been a big sleeper. She has sometimes slept for 10 hours, but then will take NO naps at all. The past month and a half she will pretty much only nap if she is in my arms. And she wants to nurse all.the.time, which makes me think that Im having a supply issue (Im only about 7 weeks pg, but I have no idea how quickly it can happen). The thing is, she isnt waking up and crying, she is up PLAYING. Pretty much all the time. I would think it was teeth but her whining has rapidly decreased in the past month and there are no bumps on her gums. As far as food intolerances goes, I havent seen any other evidence of it an allergy. I dont think she is really "having trouble" sleeping, I think she just wants to be up and part of the action all.the.time. She is a super super social baby. She has never really had seperation anxiety, and she talks non stop. She is on the go literally, about 14 out of every 24 hours. I really really hope it isnt a food allergy because she is already TINY (17.8 lbs and 28 inches at 15 months) and while Im not getting any flack from her doctors about it, she has suggested that I feed her more fatty foods. She is veg, so we dont feed her meat and she refuses to eat avacados and pretty much all beans. She loves pasta, bread, cereal, grains, cheese, milk, butter, cottage cheese, yogurt, and a million other dairy products and anything with gluten in it, so lets hope I dont havfe to stop feeding her those things

[Nicole730]

I can only address the nursing issue.  I was 7 weeks pregnant when my 14 month old wanted to nurse all the time.  That's when I night-weaned because I couldn't handle it.

[waiting2bemommy]

My dd does this sometimes, it will be just one day or for a couple weeks. It had gotten so bad a couple weeks ago that I started giving her a bowl of cheerios on the floor in my room just to keep her occupied for an extra half hour, even tough I knew she'd make a mess. She has na early bedtime, so it seems like she sleeps a lot but she doesn't. Typical for her is: 7:30 PM bedtime 10:30 PM awake. she will lay awake for two hours or more, singing and talking while I pat her back, nurse, offer water (my milk is also dwindling) etc. 1 AM: daddy comes home from work and she finally falls asleep with his help. 6 AM: awake for the day. She will sometimes take a "nap" in betwen 6 and 9 for about an hr. She naps maybe an hr during the day. So...8-9 hrs, a bit more than your dd, but still not enough sleep imo.

I haven't found any lasting solutions. a couple of times I tried the supernanny trick of repeatedly putting her back in her bed (she wasn't crying, just cheerfully stubborn) and she did *eventually* fall asleep, but I won't even tell you how long it took, and it was long enough that it could have just been coincidence. Let's just say it was an epic battle of wills that I don't wish to repeat.

And, she is also tiny, 14 months and still in 12 month clothes. I don't know how much exactly she weighs but it is less than 24 lbs. I've often wondered if the sleep and tiny build are related, but as far as we know she doesn't have any allergies. She even eats peanut butter now with no problems. If you find the magic cure, please do share! In the meantime you have my full sympathies. first trimester exhaustion/nausea is the WORST and having a toddler just takes it to a whole new dimension.

[VocalMinority]

Not to alarm you, but since you seem to want serious answers, the only two people I know whose babies had sleep schedules that extreme had sons who turned out to be on the Autism spectrum. One kid has pretty extreme Autism.  The other kid's is pretty mild.  My twin sons both have Autism (mild, but not quite as mild as the latter boy I mentioned).  Autism is by no means the end of the world!  And your kid may very well NOT have it!  But it might be worth examining, because if it is a factor, it's better to start intervention early.

On the practical side, if your baby can get by with less sleep than you can, I think you need to get a crib and put her in there with some books, safe toys and quiet music, when you need to sleep!  I'm all for the family bed...when the kids in it are asleep before the adults!  But if she's crawling over you, you're not getting quality sleep - which you need, with a pregnancy AND a high-energy toddler.  Also, she's not safe, if she's crawling around and no adults are awake.  Plus, it's POSSIBLE that laying her down for a while every day without the pressure of you expecting her to sleep will prove boring enough that she'll doze off in her crib sometimes.

[waiting2bemommy]

Originally Posted by Jeannine 

Not to alarm you, but since you seem to want serious answers, the only two people I know whose babies had sleep schedules that extreme had sons who turned out to be on the Autism spectrum. One kid has pretty extreme Autism.  The other kid's is pretty mild.  My twin sons both have Autism (mild, but not quite as mild as the latter boy I mentioned).  Autism is by no means the end of the world!  And your kid may very well NOT have it!  But it might be worth examining, because if it is a factor, it's better to start intervention early.

On the practical side, if your baby can get by with less sleep than you can, I think you need to get a crib and put her in there with some books, safe toys and quiet music, when you need to sleep!  I'm all for the family bed...when the kids in it are asleep before the adults!  But if she's crawling over you, you're not getting quality sleep - which you need, with a pregnancy AND a high-energy toddler.  Also, she's not safe, if she's crawling around and no adults are awake.  Plus, it's POSSIBLE that laying her down for a while every day without the pressure of you expecting her to sleep will prove boring enough that she'll doze off in her crib sometimes.

If her kid isn't used to a crib, that might not go over too well. My dd would never go for being confined in a crib or pack n play. I envision a lot of crying.......

But maybe an enclosed play yard type thing?

Thirdly, we shut our bedroom door and dd crawls over us while we're trying to sleep, and she is fine. She can get in and out of the bed fine, so no falling risk, and our bedroom has nothing dangerous in it. I don't think it's ideal, but not inherently dangerous, either.

 

[SeattleRain]

I also think it might be time to look at a crib. I would imagine a few hard nights where you and your husband might have to keep going back to the crib for soothing, but she really does need to learn to settle down and go to sleep. 2 am is just not okay for a baby, and it won't be okay when you have a new baby who needs your attention (and your bed). If she's crawling all over you at all hours of the night then she's not going to be safe to have in the bed for the baby either. I'd toss some toys in there and some quiet music in the dark and I'd just keep going back to her if she cries to rub her back or soothe her, but I wouldn't take her out of the crib. Eventually she'll get so exhausted, she'll fall asleep.

[elisheva]

Just going to throw this out there...I know we're talking about your dd so circumstances are totally different...when I'm at the end of my pregnancies, I get low vit B12 levels and the major symptom is insomnia. The cure for me? Red meat and only red meat. I sleep like a baby as long as I'm getting enough red meat.

It might be worthwhile to have her B12 levels checked (and see the dr in general about this as pp have suggested) and then see what you can do to address it within the confines of your diet.

[sosurreal09]

I second it *may* be an allergy and it would probably be dairy from my experience (also b/c dairy is one of the biggest allergens) The so delicious coconut milk products are fatty without the dairy...

The fact she is tiny is the biggest red flag b/c my DD is tiny too and she has a dairy allergy. She didn't gain or not hardly for 4 months when we tried adding dairy again (she had no other symptoms besides not sleeping well, and she was never a good sleeper but was up from say 2-4am just running around the room...) we have only been off dairy again for a month and she has gained almost 2lbs!

As for your supply have you tried More Milk Two? If you are trying to keep supply up this might help you it's for pregnant nursing moms. Also drinking a ton of water.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=more+milk+two&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=17073308569437427604&sa=X&ei=Haz0TcbXCqGv0AHr1uHsDA&ved=0CCcQ8wIwAA

Also if she has a dairy allergy she probably wouldn't do good on goat's milk products either...

[Adaline'sMama]

I spoke with her ped who does not seem to think she has a dairy allergy. She shows no other signs of allergies unless you include poor weight gain, which her ped and both think she is healthy. She had was tested for iron and protien two weeks ago and she was fine with both, so I dont think she is not absorbing nutrients. I dont think her not sleeping really has a lot to do with why she is tiny, I think it has to do with the fact that her dad and I are both short people and we were both small babies. For weight to height, she is not underweight. She has gained a pound since January, but she has started walking since then too, so its not surprising that she hasnt gained more.
She has none of the signs listed here:
http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/solids/first-foods.html#allergy (let me know if there is a better resource for this)

If she is on the Autism spectrum, we will deal with that with a specialist. Im not sure how to look for symptoms thoroughly, but she has over 25 words, 8 of which she can put together "thank you" , "oh, good", "more please", and "keys go". She is extrermly engaged, and makes eye contact most of the time. She hit all of her milestones at or before the "time babies are supposed to", smiled at three months, and babbled all throughout infancy. She hugs and kisses. Again, I dont know enough to say she isnt on the spectrum, but as far as I can tell, I cant find any signs that she is. It is something that we are aware of (I have a younger brother who was diagnosed failure to thrive and developmentally delayed and a niece who is on the spectrum) and I have asked my ped about. She gave me a list of signs to look for, but currently I havent seen anything that would indicate that there would be a need for intervention. The list was similar to this.
http://www.firstsigns.org/concerns/flags.htm (again, please let me know if there is a better list somewhere)


We arent going to be getting a crib. DD has never been confined, but she doesnt really leave the bed at all and her toys are right at the foot (we are on the floor). She is about to have her own room with a toddler bed. Im going to try nightweaning next week, its something Ive been meaning to do for months, and I just havent done it mainly because its really going to interrupt DH's sleep (he works long hours outdoors and we have a small space, so he cant really sleep in the other room because its only a few feet away), but his sleep is being interrupted anyway so I feel like I should just get it over with. She Last night, she stayed with grandma (only the second time, ever) and slept for 9 hours uninterrupted and had two naps during the day. The last time she slept all night too. And, the one time DH watched her she slept all night (I was out with girlfriends and we were at the same house, but he was in charge and I slept in a different room). Dh thinks her lack of sleep has always correlated to her nursing at night.


When I was brushing her teeth today, I think I found the answer to why she hasnt been sleeping in the past week though. She has a molar! All the way in the very back of her mouth there is a molar that is in, all the way broken through. I just havent looked for teeth back there because she only has 5 teeth and they are all up front. I was under the impression that the front teeth all came in before molars started. She also hasnt been whining the way she normally does, but there is sure enough a huge tooth back there. I cant believe I didnt think to look back there. I brush her gums there, but I never shine a light back there or anything. I did today just because so many people have asked if she is cutting teeth.

Anyway, thank you for all the responses. I plan to call my ped tomorrow to ask her about the sleeping getting a referral to a specialist.

[Adaline'sMama]

Sosurreal,
I have ordered More Milk Two and it will be here next week. Does it work well? Have you tried it? Is there a chance that my supply could already be decreasing?

[Adaline'sMama]

Elishiva,
I am not vegetarian anymore. I have been eating about 15 oz of local beef a week for about 6 months. Ive been eating medium rare, but since Ive been pregnant, Ive been eating it medium. I cant imagine eating more, but do you think its enough to make sure she is getting enough b12 through my milk? Is there a b12 supplement for infants ( I know I took one while I was vegetarian.)

[sosurreal09]

*I* haven't used it (not preg with #2 yet) but I know people who have and they seemed to all like it. I think it could be possible you milk could have dipped a bit already...but with the teething I think that is likely the real culprit here! The longest my DD has gone like that was a month...it can be very trying!

My DD no longer has "typical" allergy symptoms but she definately has the allergy...we see a specialist he said b/c she is BF she isn't likely having the full or worse reaction. The milk is protecting her KWIM? So just watch out for signs when/if you milk dwindles or when she weans. BTW I don't think a regular ped would know all the signs...Here's hoping it's not that though!
 

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

Sosurreal,
I have ordered More Milk Two and it will be here next week. Does it work well? Have you tried it? Is there a chance that my supply could already be decreasing?

[springmum]

sounds like your narrowing down the causes - hopefully teething is the culprit and it's over soon!