If you must get baby somewhere and don't have a car seat? - Page 3

[kindchen]

Originally Posted by amberskyfire 

I'm sorry, you are correct. I should have used better search terms. I looked up info using "fatal plane accidents" instead of what got me your results which was "survive plane accidents." I came up with lots of info including some like this which show that more people die in plane accidents than car accidents: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/how-risky-is-flying.html  which is not at ALL what I have always been told. Now I wish I hadn't looked that up at all.

As well as the info from this website which seems to show a low survival rate (yellow chart) for plane crashes, but I misunderstood as the chart is titled "FATAL plane accidents" - as in, they are not all fatal accidents. I am terrified to fly and my brain sees this kind of stuff and tends to freak out.
 

That link in no way shows that more people die in plane accidents than car accidents. The point of that article is that statistics about risk are complicated, and people who fly all the time have a higher risk of dying in a crash than those who fly rarely. That's common sense, right? The article also points out that our decision-making is not often about risk, but about perceived danger, which has nothing to do with statistics.

Your terror about flying doesn't have anything to do with the statistics or the actual danger involved in flying. I don't love flying either, and it has nothing to do with statistics. BUT knowing that it is relatively safe does help me calm down. Strangely, working for an airline and seeing all the crazy things that happen all the time that do NOT cause crashes made me feel safer. 

[DahliaRW]

Originally Posted by leighi123 

How many people per year die from spending one night out front of an airport, vs in car accidents per year?     

That is so apples to oranges.  And, fwiw, lots of homeless people die of exposure while sleeping on the streets.  But to get a good analysis, you'd have to look at proportion, no numbers, because WAY more people drive than sleep outsideon the concrete!

Regardless, this is a risk assessment in ONE situation and you can't really take into account overall statistics.  In that ONE location, was it safer to be outside all night with a baby, with a mom tired from traveling who probably would be physically unable to stay awake even if she wanted to, etc, to a one time cab ride to a hotel.  Is either without risk, definitely not.  But, it's an evaluation of which is riskier in that ONE SPECIFIC situation.
 

[amberskyfire]

Originally Posted by kindchen 

That link in no way shows that more people die in plane accidents than car accidents. The point of that article is that statistics about risk are complicated, and people who fly all the time have a higher risk of dying in a crash than those who fly rarely. That's common sense, right? The article also points out that our decision-making is not often about risk, but about perceived danger, which has nothing to do with statistics.

Your terror about flying doesn't have anything to do with the statistics or the actual danger involved in flying. I don't love flying either, and it has nothing to do with statistics. BUT knowing that it is relatively safe does help me calm down. Strangely, working for an airline and seeing all the crazy things that happen all the time that do NOT cause crashes made me feel safer. 

The link shows a chart that reads that 1.3 people die in auto accidents per 100 million miles traveled as opposed to 1.9 people in airline accidents per 100 million miles traveled. Maybe I'm reading it wrong somehow. I'm kind of tired. Does "risk of exposure" only mean per person, not the population as a whole?

[Eclipsepearl]

Well put!

Quote:

Originally Posted by amberskyfire 

I'm sorry, you are correct. I should have used better search terms. I looked up info using "fatal plane accidents" instead of what got me your results which was "survive plane accidents." I came up with lots of info including some like this which show that more people die in plane accidents than car accidents: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/how-risky-is-flying.html  which is not at ALL what I have always been told. Now I wish I hadn't looked that up at all.

As well as the info from this website which seems to show a low survival rate (yellow chart) for plane crashes, but I misunderstood as the chart is titled "FATAL plane accidents" - as in, they are not all fatal accidents. I am terrified to fly and my brain sees this kind of stuff and tends to freak out.
 

The link just sends me to a sign-up page. 

There are non-survivable air crashes where a seat wouldn't have made a difference either way. The point is that IF (and it's very unlikely) you beat the statistics and there is something going wrong, you have to think "I'm getting my kids and myself OUT of this plane however I have to!" You're not going to grab your bags, you're not going to be sidetracked by those who are grabbing their bags, panicking and/or giving out the wrong instructions... 

Also, hopefully those reading will take note of where their nearest, and next nearest, exits are next time they fly. They'll then vastly increased their chances of survival with just a quick glance around... 
 

Risk assessment is a delicate science. You have to choose based on the information and options you have and it's often not clear-cut. 

[mrsbernstein]

Personally, I would have done at the OP did.

A car ride each way...in the grand scope of life...I just don't see as that big of a deal.  Considering all this child will see in it's long life...TWO car-rides with mom strapped in the back of a cab IN a wrap...

I personally think escalators may be a bit more dangerous!

Mr sB

[ameliabedelia]

OP, I would have totally did what you did.   It's not ideal, but sometimes you have to do what you need to do. 

Staying outside a deserted airport at night alone seems riskier (mugging, etc.)

[hippiemombian]

I have had to ride with my kids without a car seat 3 times actually. DD1 had a traumatic accident when she was 3 weeks old and my first reaction was to get her in the car to the hospital asap. We were visiting my parents in Alabama out site-seeing the country and we were stranded with no car and no cell service. My first reaction was to run to the nearest person I could find and ask for a ride to the hospital because for all I knew my 3 week old was dying. I put her on my lap trying to keep her from falling asleep and the thought never crossed my mind about getting in an accident. I was concerned on keeping her awake and conscious. Then with DD2 two separate accidents happened to where I needed to rush her to the hospital again both times I was concerned with making sure I got to the hospital as quickly as possible. I know that I could have gotten in to an accident and something bad could have happened, but blood was gushing out of dd2's head and all of her hair and clothes and my clothes were soaked in blood, suppressing the bleeding and comforting my terrified child was what I was thinking about.

I would never sit outside an airport from 10pm until they opened again. Especially with no bathroom, diapers etc. At least at a hotel you could wash your babe in the sink or use wash cloths as make shift diapers. There's no protection from the elements, animals, bugs, other people. The baby would have to sleep in your arms all night because there's no place to lay them down. I totally would have done what you did. Sometimes you just don't have control over your circumstances. Obviously I don't think you missed your plane on purpose to intentionally ride in a car with your baby. Some people need to realize that even when you have a plan things don't always work out that way.

[brennan]

Originally Posted by swede 

Some international carriers don't allow carseats. I hope you never have to travel overseas :(
 

When I travelled to Maui when dd was 9 months old I was not allowed to bring my Canadian car seat on a Canadian airline because it actually needed the American sticker.  I have never had a problem using it within Canada, it was just flying to and from the US where I was not allowed to use it.  And I'm not about to find and purchase an American car seat to use for the once every 2 years if we're really really lucky situation.  

OP, I would have done exactly what you did.  As an FYI there very limited buses on Maui and there are car rental places in the airport, but they are a hike.  The car rental places do have car seats, but they might not have been open.

[amberskyfire]

The link just sends me to a sign-up page. 

Me, too. When you go to the page, punch in the keywords in the search bar and it pulls it up or you can Google "NOVA how risky is flying" and it should be the first link.

[Silverbird]

I was thinking about this too.  I don't drive so there is a possibility that I might get stuck one day with my train running late meaning I miss the last bus home.  In my town I know of a taxi company that has car seats and I could look one up for other towns.  But for example if I was mislead or the seat wasn't avalible that day I could end up in this situation as under UK law a baby can be carried unrestrained in a taxi.  I think using a wrap would be safer than holding the baby in my arms so they wouldn't necessary be flung forward in a stop.  Anyone else have thoughts on how to minimise the risk for thoes of us who wouldn't sit outside all night?

[DahliaRW]

Originally Posted by Silverbird 

I was thinking about this too.  I don't drive so there is a possibility that I might get stuck one day with my train running late meaning I miss the last bus home.  In my town I know of a taxi company that has car seats and I could look one up for other towns.  But for example if I was mislead or the seat wasn't avalible that day I could end up in this situation as under UK law a baby can be carried unrestrained in a taxi.  I think using a wrap would be safer than holding the baby in my arms so they wouldn't necessary be flung forward in a stop.  Anyone else have thoughts on how to minimise the risk for thoes of us who wouldn't sit outside all night?

I think it's more dangerous to have the baby on you like that.  If you go forward in an accident your baby could hit the back of the seat in front of you and be smooshed by your body.  I would think laying baby on the floor would technically be the safest.
 

[leighi123]

Originally Posted by jeminijad 

That is an interesting risk assessment... subjecting a tiny infant to the elements, possible arrest, assault for 8+ hours, rather than a car ride that is overwhelmingly likely to end successfully?

It was in Hawaii, not Canada in the middle of winter.   Its also illegal to transport a child without a carseat.   Even when closed, airports have very high security, so a pretty safe place to be outside.     Car accidents are the #1 cause of accidental deaths in children under 12, staying outside with mom for 8 hours in a baby carrier is not even on the list.   By the way, I have spent the night outside, alone with my ds when he was a baby, nothing but me, him, and a baby carrier.   No, it was not fun and it was tiring, but I didn't feel unsafe, and ds was perfectly happy to nurse or sleep cuddled up next to me.   And this was in a place that was pretty cold out at night.   Different situation as to why I was outside, but we survived just fine.  

If you INSIST on not possibly being able to hang out outside at night, then fine, call a cab company that provides carseats and ask for the newest, cleanest seat availible and at least its better than nothing.     I also looked it up, and Hawaii has a bus that goes from the airport to all over the island, thats an even better choice and a lot cheaper.   There are also planes that arrive at 5am, the airport must open before that, so its not like its 8 hours outside, more like 4.   

But my point is, it shouldn't have happened in the first place,  if the OP had brought her carseat on the plane, the choice wouldn't need to be made.   I carry mine on a wheely cart along with all of my bags and stuff, its never out of my sight.    Life threatening emergency, I'd call an ambulance before I'd try to drive while upset over a crisis.   I can't think of any other reason why I wouldn't have a carseat with me, and wouldn't have a way to get home safely as well (walk, bike, bus, wait for a ride with a carseat).     

[Lisa1970]

I also wonder if you dozed off for a second, if the baby would have crawled away and ended up dead or never found.
 

Originally Posted by swede 

really?  I wonder if you would have been picked up for vagrancy - and transported by police car without a carseat?

[mamayogibear]

I would without a question take the shuttle to a hotey! There is no reason to subject a child to squatting even if it is in front of an airport. I would gotten on the shuttle and asked the driver not to drive until I was well belted in. Then I would put the seatbelt over myself (shoulder belt if possible so I wouldn't fold over on my lo). Then I would use a woven wrap and done a very snug FWCC covering the entire baby including it's head. Then I would hug my little one with lots of love and tell the driver to 'please drive safe' and if they were driving two recklessly remind them that they are doing their job to shuttle passengers safely. And yes, I've been a similar scenario when traveling when I only had one child when she was about 1.5 and am soo thankful I had brought our size 6 Didymos as a blanket for my daughter even though I never wore her in it anymore at that point (I had just gotten my first shorty) okay I'm getting off topic now.

[amberskyfire]

The staying outside issue is kind of a moot point anyway, as they told me that I had to leave. I could not stay outside. I suppose it's something to do with post-9-11 security issues. Nobody can just hang around outside of an airport anymore.

[Honey693]

Originally Posted by leighi123 

It was in Hawaii, not Canada in the middle of winter.   Its also illegal to transport a child without a carseat.   Even when closed, airports have very high security, so a pretty safe place to be outside.     Car accidents are the #1 cause of accidental deaths in children under 12, staying outside with mom for 8 hours in a baby carrier is not even on the list.   By the way, I have spent the night outside, alone with my ds when he was a baby, nothing but me, him, and a baby carrier.   No, it was not fun and it was tiring, but I didn't feel unsafe, and ds was perfectly happy to nurse or sleep cuddled up next to me.   And this was in a place that was pretty cold out at night.   Different situation as to why I was outside, but we survived just fine.  

If you INSIST on not possibly being able to hang out outside at night, then fine, call a cab company that provides carseats and ask for the newest, cleanest seat availible and at least its better than nothing.     I also looked it up, and Hawaii has a bus that goes from the airport to all over the island, thats an even better choice and a lot cheaper.   There are also planes that arrive at 5am, the airport must open before that, so its not like its 8 hours outside, more like 4.   

But my point is, it shouldn't have happened in the first place,  if the OP had brought her carseat on the plane, the choice wouldn't need to be made.   I carry mine on a wheely cart along with all of my bags and stuff, its never out of my sight.    Life threatening emergency, I'd call an ambulance before I'd try to drive while upset over a crisis.   I can't think of any other reason why I wouldn't have a carseat with me, and wouldn't have a way to get home safely as well (walk, bike, bus, wait for a ride with a carseat).     

Hawaii = hot = exposure to the elements = possible heatstroke

Loitering is illegal too.

Airline tickets are expensive, not everyone is able to afford the extra seat.  I'd take a lap baby if it was my only chance at seeing my family.

And why don't you just come out and say I'm a better mom and love my kid more than all you people who don't bring car seats on planes?  B/c that's how you come off.

[Silverbird]

Originally Posted by DahliaRW 

I think it's more dangerous to have the baby on you like that.  If you go forward in an accident your baby could hit the back of the seat in front of you and be smooshed by your body.  I would think laying baby on the floor would technically be the safest.
 

This is intresting but unfortunatly I can't see any taxi driver letting you lie a baby in the footwell, (though I drove with one who let an adult do it once).  Also in a black style cab that wouldn't work either. 

[Silverbird]

Originally Posted by Eclipsepearl 

Please don't use the "They don't use car seats in other countries..." argument. It's true they don't use car seats but they lose more children in accidents. I live in one of those countries. That's a fact. Everyone's sad and everyone feels sorry for the parents but they continue to not use car seats and that's that. 

Also, don't say "we didn't have car seats and we survived". This is true for us but remember the babies who didn't survive aren't here to share their stories. Hospitals now have trouble supplying organs for children who need them because they no longer have the large number of highway fatalities they used to, thanks to car seats. 

Plus, when I looked up safety stats, almost no one survives plane crashes. They are extremely rare and when they do happen, there are almost never survivors (they are pretty horrific) so the likelihood of the car seat saving her would be low.

Where did you "look up" these safety stats? I'm a former Flight Attendant and we were told the complete opposite;  MORE PEOPLE SURVIVE PLANE ACCIDENTS THAN DIE in them. The idea that "We're all going to die" is not only a myth but it could also mean that YOU don't survive an accident. Many die because they panic or don't make an effort to get out. This is what the airlines do NOT want you to know. They hide this fact from the public because they don't want to make it worse for the surviving relatives. If your loved one ran the wrong way or didn't get out of his seat, that would be difficult to even know and even worse if it were shared with the press!!

Trust me, having a car seat on the plane can and has made a difference in many accidents. This is NOT a valid reason for not using a car seat on board. Be honest and say you don't want to buy a ticket for your baby because accidents ARE rare and you want to save money. You're placing your bets on the fact you wont have an accident, and chances are very much in your favor. But don't use a flimsy excuse about surviving crashes or the fact your baby "likes to be held", or whatever. 

I was once stuck on a shuttle and I put my baby on the floor. He was a bit bigger. I would have used a baby carrier IF there was a shoulder belt and made sure the shoulder belt did NOT go over any part of the baby.

For the record, I travel alone internationally with three children and brought a car seat for many years. It's totally do-able if you're organized but you need to be organized!!! I put my car seat on a metal luggage cart (don't buy a Gogo Travelmate, it's basically an overpriced, plastic luggage cart when you can buy a metal one for less that does the same thing). Having a good baby carrier is a must. A lot of the moms here breastfeed and already babywear so that make travel easier. 

For the record, about foreign airlines, I have had my seats taken away from me. One airline I flew didn't allow car seats at all (RyanAir, a low-cost Irish company). I arranged a car seat at our destination in England. I avoid flying our national company, which has been dodgy with car seats and try to fly either a U.S. company or Lufthansa, who are good about accepting foreign car seats (I drive with American car seats here for safety reasons, the ones sold here are not good, especially for rfing and ehing).

Actually I feel the other countires/we survied thing is relevent becuase no-one is trying to say driving unrestrained is safe or as safe as driving restrained just that it is not an automatic death sentence.  I remember as a young person seeing a statistic on TV that 2 year olds were statistically safer to be left at home unsupervised that to go with there parents doing errends in the car.  Now even if I could find the study I wouldn't expect people to do this, the stats are clearly skewed by the fact that almost on toddlers are left unsupervised (and how the heck did they collect the data?).  But their are other good reasons not to leave you child unsupersived.  Sometime small risks are not the only factor.  Even if the OP had the choice of staying outside all night and the had some stats to show that 0.00000004% of babys left out all night die/are mugged but 0.00000005% die in one unrestreind car ride (numbers entirly made up) I would still support her choice.  Comfort and other factors also impact on choices.  Why else to women choose to birth in hosptial when studies say home birth is safer? (or visa versa depending on the study).  The fact that you ever choose to have you baby ride in a car rather than walking everywhere shows you do expose her to some risks.

[dejagerw]

Originally Posted by leighi123 

   Life threatening emergency, I'd call an ambulance before I'd try to drive while upset over a crisis.   I can't think of any other reason why I wouldn't have a carseat with me, and wouldn't have a way to get home safely as well (walk, bike, bus, wait for a ride with a carseat).     

Do ambulances have car seats? I would think by riding in an ambulance you'd automatically be transporting your child without a car seat.

[Eclipsepearl]

Is this the right link?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/how-risky-is-flying.html

Good article. Just one small point I wanted to make. I was with an airline which declared bankruptcy and the FAA were all over us like a bad rash. It's a red flag to them so please don't go by the financial stability to determine how safe an airline is. They may cut down on snacks and blankets but if anything, they'll be watched like hawks (plus the fact that a crash could shut them down completely), especially if lack of maintenance or similar is blamed. 

Actually I feel the other countires/we survied thing is relevent becuase no-one is trying to say driving unrestrained is safe or as safe as driving restrained just that it is not an automatic death sentence.

No one is saying it is but it's not valid to use that to justify or determine risks. But interesting about the 2 year at home idea. No, I wouldn't do it, but a lot would depend on where. Our house is a maze of dangerous stairs, a child-unfriendly balcony, nasty glass doors and a really slippery bathroom floor. But I can see the statistics making a case for that (especially since I hope most people have child-friendlier abodes). 

It's similar to the lap baby justification. IF something happened, i.e. a fire in the house, it's doubtful that a 2 year old could get out by him or herself alone. Very unlikely that would even happen but...

Do ambulances have car seats? I would think by riding in an ambulance you'd automatically be transporting your child without a car seat.

Ambulances have gurneys with belts and there are nets around them (cousin married to a ambulance guy). Plus the fact they can turn on the siren and get other drivers out of the way (in theory). Plus, it's a really experienced professional driver...