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What do you do that cancels our your NFL/AP/CRUNCHY/NON-Mainstream/MDCness? - Page 20

post #381 of 468

Riverscout is right, I said "in most of the world, the present is brutal," not singling out the United States. I also did NOT say that history is not ideologically driven. I said it is the study of the past, which anthropology is not. 

 

But speaking of privilege, I'm not sure why you think the United States isn't also brutal for some portion of our population. How many people in the United States are in prison?  I'll give you a hint. We have the highest incarceration rate in the world, of any country, both in absolute terms and as a proportion of our population. We use solitary confinement, even though it's been shown to drive some prisoners insane. We execute people convicted of murder. We banned the execution of minors only six years ago. We have a whole economy based on prison labor. 

 

(Sorry, I was going to suggest you attempt to rebut that, but I'm reminded that this is entirely off topic, if enjoyable.) 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alenushka View Post

When did you take an antropology class last time? I took one last semester and I was really impressed by culutural sensitivity and balanced view. History is not ideologically driven you say?

Life is pain and suffereding, past or present. But to think think the modern American time is more brutal than live of many people now or in the past just shows amazing ignorance of the privileged.

 

How many epopel in US stay for hours in food lines? Watch their child die for a lack of simple IV or antibiotic? HAve goverment come into their house and take their mother and fatehr to a concentration camps?

 



 


Edited by captain optimism - 6/20/11 at 6:32pm
post #382 of 468

Could all you people debating/arguing/whatever just go away so this thread can get back on topic? 

 

 

I thought of more uncrunchy.

 

I yell.   A lot.  So do my kids.  I wouldn't change that.

We don't use public transportation.

I love sugar.  Oreos rock.

 

 

post #383 of 468

 

Quote:

I don't think all bad advice is equal--some of it is part of a folkloric tradition and some is part of intentional ideologies and beliefs about the nature of human beings.

 

But it cuts both ways. All good advice isn't equal either. And some of it is part of a "folkloric tradition and some is part of intentional ideologies and beliefs about the nature of human beings," as you have written. It certainly doesn't make it true. 

 

 

post #384 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post

Could all you people debating/arguing/whatever just go away so this thread can get back on topic? 

 

 

I thought of more uncrunchy.

 

I yell.   A lot.  So do my kids.  I wouldn't change that.

We don't use public transportation.

I love sugar.  Oreos rock.

 

 


The bolded part is a good example of perspective and practicality!  We use public transportation because it is more convenient and ultimately less of a headache.  Ever try to park a car or pay liability insurance in Brooklyn?  I take the train/bus because it's easy, not because its crunchy.  LOL!  Btwn:  I grew up in a home-cooking traditional foods type house.  Sugar was an important food group!  G-d, I loved my mother's baking.  :)

 

post #385 of 468
Thread Starter 


The scene with the 4 year old dressed in the organic hasmat suit with his mother commiserating his distress by crying in his face along with him gets me every time. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post


Haven't seen it but it looks funny!



 



 

post #386 of 468
Thread Starter 


Seriously.  Perhaps its time for a S/O thread?  Just saying.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post

Could all you people debating/arguing/whatever just go away so this thread can get back on topic? 

 

 

I thought of more uncrunchy.

 

I yell.   A lot.  So do my kids.  I wouldn't change that.

We don't use public transportation.

I love sugar.  Oreos rock.

 

 


Oh, Im a yeller.  Always have been, even pre-kid.  I was born with a megaphone implanted in my throat.  And I have passed it on to my boys.  I got it from my mother. 

 

Sometimes trying to be as AP as possbile means changing some core things about yourself, and Im really just not willing to do that.  Not because YELLING or BEING LOUD is something im proud of, but because if I start changing the little things about my personality, where does it end?  Im supposed to be teaching my children to embrace who they are and be proud and self confident (Not to be confused with bossy and arrogant). 
 

 

post #387 of 468

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Edited by riverscout - 6/21/11 at 10:31am
post #388 of 468
Thread Starter 

headscratch.gif

post #389 of 468

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Edited by riverscout - 6/21/11 at 10:31am
post #390 of 468
Thread Starter 

I dont recall any AP/NFL bashfests. 

 

 

Though forgive me.  After 20 pages, perhaps I missed something. 

post #391 of 468

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Edited by riverscout - 6/21/11 at 10:30am
post #392 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alenushka View Post

When did you take an antropology class last time? I took one last semester and I was really impressed by culutural sensitivity and balanced view. History is not ideologically driven you say?

Life is pain and suffereding, past or present. But to think think the modern American time is more brutal than live of many people now or in the past just shows amazing ignorance of the privileged.

 

How many epopel in US stay for hours in food lines? Watch their child die for a lack of simple IV or antibiotic? HAve goverment come into their house and take their mother and fatehr to a concentration camps?

 

there are plenty of these, right here, in the US.  there really are.  Here's a book about the lives of some inner city children that will make you cry. 

There's some pretty awful stuff happening, here in the states, and it is getting worse.  around one in 50 children here experience homelessness each year, around 1.5 million children.  (according to this organization which linked from NIH).

while poverty here may not be as severe as in other places, it is still pretty bad, and is not improving. 
 

 

post #393 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by alittlesandy View Post

Yeah, I've had it with "Take your not-so-pure AP-ish approach to a more mainstream forum." I can't get good advice in those forums! Mothering is wonderful. I am deeply in love with the community here, including the people who UC and never let a speck of plastic in their house. God bless people who are that committed! I am floored by how extreme some people are, in a good way! I ADMIRE YOU!!! I AM JEALOUS OF YOU!!! blowkiss.gif

 

However, I have never, in all my life, EVER fit in. I don't fit in completely here, and I certainly don't fit in at the more mainstream forums.

 

I need a safe place to talk about how to pump and bottle feed at 4 weeks when I HAVE to go back to work at 5 weeks, instead of being shut down with a single comment, "Mama, you should never offer a bottle before six weeks." I can't get help with this in a mainstream forum.

 

I want advice about wraps AND strollers. Cosleeping AND cribs.

 

I don't long for the "old days" of Mothering, because I am deeply relieved to know there are others like me. EVERYONE in my local mom's group had a homebirth, shunned bottles, still cosleeps, and don't own cribs or strollers. I think, WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME? WHAT WENT WRONG??? mecry.gif

 

Thank god these boards have not remained "pure to the ideals of AP/NFL" because otherwise I would be LOST...


I just want you to know that I really like you and think you are super sweet. You have such a genuinely nice way of coming across, I think that really is special on the internet, you are just so clear and nice and I never am like "what did she mean by that".

 

I really want this to be a place where mamas can come and say "Guys, I gotta go back to work. Its sucks. I hate it. But I don't have a choice....how in the world do I pump and bottle feed and feel as attached as I possibly can and somehow not lose my mind in all of this!!" - THAT to me, is what an AP/Crunchy forum is REALLY all about.....we're all doing the best with what we've got and that means that many of the mamas who come here will be "crunchy in their hearts" - but pressed for time, money, etc in the "real world" and needing to take the AP "vibe" and apply it to their lives in the way they can....THIS SHOULD BE A PLACE FOR THAT!!!

 

 

But open talk about Circ on these boards? Open talk about spanking? Brazen declarations of "Yeah, I've seen all the rear facing nonsense you ladies post about, HAHA my 25 pound 10 month old is still front facing, you don't know meeeeee!" - that's honestly too much. This is not a place for that. I mean, the last one is just plain lazy, dangerous parenting - ACTUALLY *dangerous*.

 

Somebody equating FF to child abuse makes me sick, because I know how wrong breastfeeding can go for some people sometimes. Equating poor diet to abuse DOES make sense to me...but I'm talking about the morbidly obese child who is sucking down a liter bottle of coke like he hasn't had a drink in years in the checkout line in the store, while his mother is like "hey, how many snickers bars you want" - you know? The whole "we don't eat organic" or "sometimes we eat junk food" - for pete's sake, that's not abuse, that's just LIFE.

 

 

On the other thread, the "You might be crunchy if...." all kinds of ladies came on talking about "this feels so judgmental, you think you're so much better than me because I'm so mainstream..." - no, actually, I don't feel that at all mamas....I FEEL like I'm on a NFL forum and comparing notes on all the things that we're doing with our family to live a natural lifestyle is normal and a part of the mission of this site.

 

 

"Ha, I drive a hummer, I love sucking down gas" <---- This comment has nothing to do with parenting, it is 100% about trying to piss off the mamas who care deeply for the environment. Soooo, good job I guess? Seeing these kinds of comments just convinces me even more that some of you WANT to fight or maybe are plain insecure in your choices. What does a comment like that even MEAN about the person who says it? You drive a hummer, you know it sucks gas, you know that gas hog vehicles are not great for the environment and that dependance on fossil fuels for transportation is harmful for our planet and costly in lives and economic security and you know that a strong majority on this website work to minimize their impact environmentally for these reasons and still somehow delight in declaring, loud and proud, that you drive a hummer, all that implies, etc etc. That just doesn't make sense to me. That, to me, sounds like you just want to come here and piss on parades. I don't care that you drive a hummer. I wish you wouldn't drive it, but whatever, you know? A kind, joyful person on the planet who drives a hummer is still making a more positive impact on the earth than a meany head who drives a prius, so whatever. But I don't need to know what you drive and you know that, the only reason you said that is because you were TRYING to ruffle feathers. No one was TRYING to ruffle feathers by talking about their composting toilet.

 

All of these things that you guys have posted about your "more mainstream" lifestyles, they don't make me feel like I'm being judged....so how come when I talk about the lifestyle I'm leading (on a board that was created for the lifestyle choices I'm trying to make) everyone gets all "don't judge me" - I'm not judging you, I'm just living my life and coming to a board that supports my lifestyle choices to talk about that life with other like minded people. Some of you have stated you are actually grossed out by some of the choices I make or think they are gross or dangerous. Still don't feel judged or mad, because I know I'm posting on a board which explicitly supports the things I'm talking about.

 

I mean, what is it that some of you are trying to accomplish here? The only reason the "You might be crunchy" thread went south, was because people who seem to identify themselves as more mainstream or "middle of the road" came on and were like "zomg I'm so judged here" and the only reason this thread went south and snarky is because the very nature of starting the thread the way it was started (no matter what the OPs stated intentions were) is combative...a retaliation for the "horrible" thread about being crunchy.  This board is about being crunchy. If you have crunchy stuff to talk about, talk about it. If you have stuff to talk about that is a bit less "hardcore"...no one (who is nice and in their right mind) is going to get mad at you so long as the tone is "this is my life" not "Hahaha, I drive a hummer, suck on that, earth lovers" - you know? Even if you post something that is borderline "not for this board" - if your tone is one of simply stating a fact about your life for the purposes of asking questions or getting support....it's really going to be okay.

 

It's the "danger zone" issues that REALLY AREN'T appropriate:

 

-CIO

-Circ

-Front facing your infant

-Spanking as a parenting choice

 

Really, you know, just things which are directly opposed to the intended vibe and scope of this forum...you don't have to talk about these thigns here, there is NOWHERE to talk about them! There are forums to discuss activism to COMBAT them....but they do not fit in a "YAY, circ is for ME" kind of way.

 

I honestly like this thread, I really and truly enjoy learning ALL ABOUT mamas here....but please don't think it's appropriate to come onto a thread about crunchiness and talk smack. If you feel judged by my crunchiness, that is on YOU, because I know most women here aren't actually looking down their noses at you being like "what an awful mother! Her kids ate macaroni!" - seriously.

 

Now for mine:

 

- I raise and kill chickens and rabbits for food (I know a lot of people think that's really un-crunchy, but I do it because if I'm going to eat meat, I want to at least take responsibility for the meat I'm eating, make sure it's a happy animal that's well fed and dies with as much comfort and dignity as possible.)

 

- Um, my name is AverysMomma, and I'm a total and complete sugar addict! (Seriously, I have a problem, I stash and sneak little candies all the time. Like, right now, I'm eating cheese...but Im thinking about you, dark chocolate M&Ms behind my cookbooks on the counter!!) Yeah, my kids are HFCS free, but I am NOT.

 

I can't really think of anything else right now....I'm sure there are some mamas here who would come to my house and think I was SOOOO mainstreamy....and many more who would come to my house and think I was so hardcore and insane for the way I live. But, we'd have a fire, listen to the loons on the lake and share some marshmallows and raw chocolate bars and wine and all have fun in the end!! grouphug.gif

 

post #394 of 468
Goodness. I get all busy having a life and the flame fests continue without me.

I'm not going to have much of a list on this one, because I really am a dirty hippy freak. wink1.gif I'll go post over there after this, but my Gina wants to know more about my fall from grace and Im all about obeying the requests of my ladies. orngbiggrin.gif

We eat fast food sometimes. I practically live on Ramen. That's my big unhealthy food thing.
I am really upset that my youngest won't take a bottle of formula. I'm so sick of nursing I spend a lot of time crying about how much I hate it.
I love to travel and that is the most wasteful thing imaginable.
I'm a heller and I honestly think it's ok. My kid tells me when I'm being too loud or intense for her. She's really good at stating her boundaries and when she tells me I need to back off I do. It's ok that we otherwise have loud voices.


I'm going to jump on a hand grenade here. I've never really been fully clear on CIO. What exactly qualifies? To be honest there are times I put my baby in the pack n play and let her cry herself to sleep. It's never taken longer than 15 minutes. I do this because I have extreme mental health issues. I do this because I am sadly aware deep in my gut that I would be violent if I tried to martyr myself again. I just can't provide 24 hour physical contact anymore.I feel enormous guilt about this but I know this is the only way I will actually be a non-violent parent. Yeah, I feel judged here. I feel like me making a choice that makes us all a little bit unhappy is better than a choice that could be permanently damaging.


Every time someone says that ap is "natural" and that is why we should do it I want to point out that infanticide is natural. Many species of animals and cultures throughout history have deliberately killed off some of their children for many reasons. Can we not act like natural is the be all end all please?


And dude, I am totally here for friends. I'm kind of sad for people who aren't. And I really don't have time to spend on any other boards so I hope I don't get kicked out. greensad.gif
post #395 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by rightkindofme View Post

Goodness. I get all busy having a life and the flame fests continue without me.

I'm not going to have much of a list on this one, because I really am a dirty hippy freak. wink1.gif I'll go post over there after this, but my Gina wants to know more about my fall from grace and Im all about obeying the requests of my ladies. orngbiggrin.gif

We eat fast food sometimes. I practically live on Ramen. That's my big unhealthy food thing.
I am really upset that my youngest won't take a bottle of formula. I'm so sick of nursing I spend a lot of time crying about how much I hate it.
I love to travel and that is the most wasteful thing imaginable.
I'm a heller and I honestly think it's ok. My kid tells me when I'm being too loud or intense for her. She's really good at stating her boundaries and when she tells me I need to back off I do. It's ok that we otherwise have loud voices.


I'm going to jump on a hand grenade here. I've never really been fully clear on CIO. What exactly qualifies? To be honest there are times I put my baby in the pack n play and let her cry herself to sleep. It's never taken longer than 15 minutes. I do this because I have extreme mental health issues. I do this because I am sadly aware deep in my gut that I would be violent if I tried to martyr myself again. I just can't provide 24 hour physical contact anymore.I feel enormous guilt about this but I know this is the only way I will actually be a non-violent parent. Yeah, I feel judged here. I feel like me making a choice that makes us all a little bit unhappy is better than a choice that could be permanently damaging.


Every time someone says that ap is "natural" and that is why we should do it I want to point out that infanticide is natural. Many species of animals and cultures throughout history have deliberately killed off some of their children for many reasons. Can we not act like natural is the be all end all please?


And dude, I am totally here for friends. I'm kind of sad for people who aren't. And I really don't have time to spend on any other boards so I hope I don't get kicked out. greensad.gif


I like your truthiness. I get what you mean about the contact. I've never let my kids CIO for any period of time, but then, I am in a situation right now where I'm really struggling with my 19 month odl DS not being able to self sooth very well....yeah, I'm nursing him between 20-30 times a day because EVERYTHING makes him want to soothe on the boob. :(

 

Another one to add to my "uh-oh" list:

 

I yell.

 

I am an intense person. I'm honestly, SO intense. When I am even slightly focused on something, that focus turns into a laser and I am constantly fearful that I am too hard on my baby girl. Sometimes I just feel so HARD and critical...even when I'm not saying anything, I'll look at something she's doing and I'll have to tell myself to change my face and put on an easy smile, instead of an intense eye of scrutiny. I don't know, I guess that's really not a "mainstream" thing so much as a "my personal life work" thing....but yeah, I get it. I constantly have to tell myself in my head "easy, easy, lighten up, she's just a kid, she's growing and learning...lower your voice, don't be so harsh, etc" - I don't wanna be like my mom, good LORD, if I can accomplish anything in this life, let me be a nicer, easier, more loving mama than my own was when I was a kid!

 

post #396 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by rightkindofme View Post

Every time someone says that ap is "natural" and that is why we should do it I want to point out that infanticide is natural. Many species of animals and cultures throughout history have deliberately killed off some of their children for many reasons. Can we not act like natural is the be all end all please?

 

Yep.  The few groups that do practice "solo birth" tend to do it to give the mother space to commit infanticide, actually.  There is a huge taboo among some hunter-gatherers about having children too closely spaced, with the expectation that if you get pregnant.   In fact, some anthropologists have calculated infanticide rates amongst the paleolithic population as being at least 15-20%.  

 

 

post #397 of 468

Oh, but we do not want to talk about thing like this. You know "ugly " thing that would terrify us the civlized people. We like the noble savage picture.

post #398 of 468
Thread Starter 


This is also a little bit of what I meant up thread. 

 

There are certain things about us as PEOPLE that would have to go through a major overhaul in order to conform to alot of the basics that are AP.  And at what repricussion do we work ourselves into a mental downward spiral in order to follow them?  Do we put our very psychological health in jepeordy because we might be judged for putting our screaming toddlers down in thier pack and plays and step away?  Do we bottle up our emotions until we are ready to implode because we shouldnt YELL or RAISE OUR VOICES?  I tried the martyr thing too, and after about 3 months, was ready to pull out my eyelashes from the crazy that it made me.  Im an intense person by nature.  Its in the cards I was dealt, and trying to repress that causes more damage then good. 

 

Its hard to find that balance, and some of us feel judged for picking and choosing what we can handle in the AP department, and some we just HAVE to let go. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rightkindofme View Post
I'm going to jump on a hand grenade here. I've never really been fully clear on CIO. What exactly qualifies? To be honest there are times I put my baby in the pack n play and let her cry herself to sleep. It's never taken longer than 15 minutes. I do this because I have extreme mental health issues. I do this because I am sadly aware deep in my gut that I would be violent if I tried to martyr myself again. I just can't provide 24 hour physical contact anymore.I feel enormous guilt about this but I know this is the only way I will actually be a non-violent parent. Yeah, I feel judged here. I feel like me making a choice that makes us all a little bit unhappy is better than a choice that could be permanently damaging.


 


 

post #399 of 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by rightkindofme View Post


[...]
I'm going to jump on a hand grenade here. I've never really been fully clear on CIO. What exactly qualifies? To be honest there are times I put my baby in the pack n play and let her cry herself to sleep. It's never taken longer than 15 minutes. I do this because I have extreme mental health issues. I do this because I am sadly aware deep in my gut that I would be violent if I tried to martyr myself again. I just can't provide 24 hour physical contact anymore.I feel enormous guilt about this but I know this is the only way I will actually be a non-violent parent. Yeah, I feel judged here. I feel like me making a choice that makes us all a little bit unhappy is better than a choice that could be permanently damaging.


 


hug2.gifnod.gif  I have an 11 year old.  I have loved him intensely from conception and put myself and my needs always below him and his.  I'm starting to see now, how little it's actually done for our relationship.  I've always done more for my children than I should, felt guilty about not doing enough, put myself last (with the exception of hiding out behind a locked door from time to time to gain some composure.)  I find now that my kids expect little things from me that are disrespectful and I've always really enforced that (like giving them my dessert or gathering up their dirty dishes and laundry while they play video games) I think it's great to know your limits and do what you can, but take care of yourself as well as you take care of your children.  It's really hard to balance that and I think it's great for you to acknowledge that you're doing it for you because you need it.  

 

I'm really starting to take care of my own needs lately and it's very nice.  I'm going to grad school (starts tonight!) just because I want to and it's just for me:)  You know, I'm not even my kids favorite parent???  After all I've done for them.LOL 

 

I want to add that I don't think that AP is the same as martyrdom at all.  My experience with overdoing it doesn't mean anything towards anyone else's way of doing it.  AP is great, martyrdom isn't.  I do a lot right, so I'm not bashing myself either when I say that I'd redo this one part of my parenting.

 


Edited by chaoticzenmom - 6/21/11 at 9:08am
post #400 of 468

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Edited by riverscout - 6/21/11 at 10:30am
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