Misogyny in homeschool groups

[kittywitty]

I finally found a homeschooling group locally. Last year the selections looked great for the Co-op but we had a new baby & health issues, so we waited for this year. I got the schedule and first of all there is a Creation-based science class. We believe in Evolution and NOT Creation. No offense if you do, but this isn't a pick and choose co-op, but you take all or none and I'm not sure how to talk to my kids about this.

Also, there is woodworking for boys ONLY and American Girls for Girls. My oldest in this age range for the class likes woodworking and often makes things with me, but does NOT like American Girls. She would be miserable! But we have no other community or homeschool options or anything for hours away from us. I don't know what to do!

[AnnR33]

It sounds like you are out of luck for this round. But you should get involved and speak up now as they plan for future co-op classes. I'm guessing from the current classes this is a conservative group and you are not. So it may take some "finesse" to get some classes that are not as conservative or stereotypical. The more you offer to be involved, the more you can influence.

Are there other moms in the group more of your thinking? Could you start a small break off group? Or just a short term co-op type class/playgroup  with a few kids that want to do something else?

I've found that there are usually other like minded moms when the majority is very conservative or religious or whatever. After getting to know the group in just a few meetings I've spoken to my "targets" LOL and found that they were very interested in doing some other things.

Finding homeschool support can be a challenge but it can be done with a little work, perseverance, and patience!

[kittywitty]

We are very rural. I only know of one other family that will be joining that would agree with me here, and her son isn't in the same grade level. There are so few families, a break off group is probably impossible.

[4evermom]

I think I'd find out what exactly is "American Girls" going to entail.  They mean like the dolls and books?  Is it possible they are planning cool projects that will appeal to your dd but just have a weird title?  My niece's school had a theme for the year, pioneers or something, and they did a variety of projects throughout the year not all of which were "girly."  Of course it was a co-ed class so was striving for balance.  I wouldn't be keen on the Creationist angle but possibly their science will be weak enough or focusing on more modern science that it won't be too bad...

[SweetSilver]

We are near a big homeschooling town, but it's a 30-45 minute drive away, a drive that I can't do more than twice a week with the girls.  In our immediate area things are very conservative (so far, I have friends with babies that will be homeschooling).  

     There are other ways of connecting with people (and later form a coop).  4H might be filled with conservative families, but being run by the state extensions the activities are not based around religion.  And what needs to be learned?  If your coop will only offer woodworking to boys, then do some networking and find a woodworker that will let your family visit and play around.  This sounds tedious to do this for everything (there is a reason coops are so popular) but I would prefer it to joining such a conservative group, especially one that wants to teach what I believe is fiction to my kids as if it were fact.

     If some of the kids and parents are nice, then make friends and play together.  But the coop arrangement sounds unacceptable.  (Personally, I would take more isolation if those were my choices.  I would find the alternative unbearable.  Even if the "American Girls" class was really cool, I could not contain my irritation at what I see as BS.)

[mamaupupup]

What a crazy coincidence:  I was reading the Betsy Ross and the Silver Thimble book to the girls last night (it was Flag Day) and was disappointed that exactly this was written in the book:  "You do not know how to use Father's tools.  A saw is not for a little girl," and then the mom gives her a thimble... Seriously??? 

This is a toughy!  I've homeschooled my girls so far through preschool and we're starting HS Kindy this Fall.  Even without much external influence, one of my girls said, "Girls are nurses, boys are doctors" the other day.  I was stunned!  (When we asked her how she came up with this perspective, she said, "The Playmobil figures." (I come from a long line of career women--and had a very successful vocation of my own prior to seeing the brighter side of the world with my children as a stay at home Mom).  So, I think it's difficult (although doable) to balance all the external inputs which shape the children's viewpoints. 

I agree that it would be wise to ask questions around the American Girl curriculum.  I have done all I can (and been successful so far) to avoid the commercial American Girl toys.  I even "disappointed" relatives in NYC last winter when I refused an invitation to take the girls to whatever that tea party is.  I'm totally on your side.

Also, I have found an incredible artist who mentors young children (read:  sits down and does artsy things with the girls while I catch up on bills and other misc. house stuff).  I've specifically asked him to do a summer-long project with the girls building a treehouse in our backyard.  I WANT the girls to do woodworking (I once built a fence and found that incredibly gratifying).  Our art tutor uses wood with them in projects and will help them learn how to hammer and use other tools this summer.  Maybe you can find someone to do the same with your girls?  Even the instructor that has all boys in that woodworking class?  Our art instructor is a male and I always make sure they are in my peripheral vision/within earshot because I am that concerned about even "trusted" males around my kids...  Still, I hope you can find someone to do the woodshop activities.

Hang in there!  You'll find the right balance for your family!

[kittywitty]

Well we already do woodworking. So it's not for instruction so much as socialization that we are joining this. We are joining the groups so my kids can meet friends. We are very rural and secluded. We are "out of towners" so automatically excluded from a lot. There is NOTHING in this town-museums, anything. It's very clique-y, too, so I was hoping this way they could meet friends.

I did email to ask if she could join woodworking and they have not answered me. We've tried to join 4H for 3 years now. Last year they told us the forms to sign up would be ready Oct 1st. I showed up and they said classes started last month, so I was too late. And this was with me having stopped by the week before to make sure.

My dd is very much so a "tomboy" and has zero interest in American Girls. She's 10 years old and she went through that phase a loooong time ago. I also emailed about the Creation class and they use the Answers in Genesis program which I am very, very, 100% against. It is a young earth (4000 year old earth), literal 7 day program all about Creation. It's in the middle of the day. I asked if I could do they younger grades science class with my kids, but otherwise I don't know if they'd even be "allowed" to skip it because of the schedule. They still haven't emailed me about that, either.

[mamaupupup]

Wow.  It's such a shame that the community seems to be so closed!  Any chance you can integrate travel?  I noticed you have four children, so it might be difficult, I understand. 

I recently read a book which may be inspiring to you:  the story of the Colfaxs who lived remotely with four boys and three of them ended up going to Harvard (note: that's not my measure of "success" but it is impressive).  The book is:  Hard Times in Paradise and was very motivating to me.

[GirlBoyGirl]

Sounds like a group I would run, not walk, as fast as I can from! I don't share those same values at all- why can't girls take woodworking?? That's nonsense and it teaches the kids the wrong message. Also I would not pay for a class about American Girl dolls. I know there is "history" and stories to them, but that seems like a waste to me because I can easily teach that at home. I would rather them be involved in a class that is a bit more difficult to teach at home or in small groups (but better off in large groups). But of course I don't know much about co-ops, my kids are too little for school and I mostly just lurk here but what I do know is I would never be a part of a group that teaches a "creation-based" science class (which sounds like an oxy moron to me) and teaches woodworking to only boys as it would be clear to me that my ideals would not mesh with theirs.

[Igraine]

I am sorry KIttywitty for all the troubles.

We are also in a small rural community and have to drive to a city to connect with like minded parents (it is not too far be pending on where events are held 25-35 minute drive).  We have attended a few local homeschooling activities where the group is mainly Christian based and have documents we would need to sign in order to officially join. These are statements of "belief" and they are NOT anything my husband or I would sign. So we focus more on making friends locally with kids who go to school and travel to where the secular homeschoolers are.

4-H can be cliquey too, but I would keep trying because that seems to be more in line with what your kids want. 

Honestly, if I have to compromise myself and beliefs  completely to join a group just to gain access to socialization for my kids, we are not doing it. And one other little tid bit. MY 5 y/o daughter was participating in a community gym class with other homeschoolers who were mostly Christian. She was making friends with this one little girl and having a great time. Then this little girl asks her about "Jesus" and my little girl responds something like "I don't believe in Jesus." And this little girl got so mad at her, raised her voice and told her she could be her friend then. My little girl was heart sick. She could not understand why someone who believed something differently still could not be her friend. It has been an opportunity for us to talk about how people think differently and how we have to respect people's choices AND how other should respect our choices...and what to do if they do not. Hard lessons to learn at such a young age.

Good luck with whatever you decide. It is such a tough thing

[kittywitty]

Mamaupupup- I will check out that book. Thank you.

I just got an email back. They explained in a very long email that there will be absolutely no exceptions for us for either woodworking or the Creation science class. I don't even mind that it's a religious group, I don't mind my kids exposed to it. But it's the close-mindedness and misogyny that is irritating me.

On a related note, the neighbor kid that my kids play with told his family my ds does not believe in god and he was instructed to invite my children to his church (his mom would drive) to "save their souls".

[2xy]

I think you need to ask yourself exactly how much "community" you're likely to forge with people who think that way.

We homeschooled for three years in semi-rural Virginia and a year on a military base in Washington, DC. I know from experience that conservative Christian homeschool groups will quickly turn you out if you don't toe the line. All it takes is one of your kids to start talking about dinosaurs or Harry Potter, and you've become someone to shun. They also frequently require prospective members to sign a "statement of faith" before joining the group. Then you have to explain bigotry to your children, which sucks.

I know this still doesn't help you find playmates for your kids. I really don't know what to say about that, since I've never been in your shoes. Good luck to you.

[4evermom]

Hmm...   Are there any after school programs/clubs for schooled kids in the area?  That's bizarre about the 4H, going a week before and then being told you were too late when you showed up to register.  Do you think you were being purposefully excluded or were they just inept?  Don't they have a website with sign up info?  I think I'd be writing a formal letter of complaint somewhere since that is a global organization.

[onlyzombiecat]

Originally Posted by kittywitty 

Mamaupupup- I will check out that book. Thank you.

I just got an email back. They explained in a very long email that there will be absolutely no exceptions for us for either woodworking or the Creation science class. I don't even mind that it's a religious group, I don't mind my kids exposed to it. But it's the close-mindedness and misogyny that is irritating me.

On a related note, the neighbor kid that my kids play with told his family my ds does not believe in god and he was instructed to invite my children to his church (his mom would drive) to "save their souls".

I wouldn't take part in the co-op.It would make me very upset that they were offering classes by gender. I would not want my dd to have to take a Creation science class just to be around other kids.

It sucks but I would keep looking for other social opportunities even if they are farther away.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by 4evermom 

Hmm...   Are there any after school programs/clubs for schooled kids in the area?  That's bizarre about the 4H, going a week before and then being told you were too late when you showed up to register.  Do you think you were being purposefully excluded or were they just inept?  Don't they have a website with sign up info?  I think I'd be writing a formal letter of complaint somewhere since that is a global organization.

When we lived in Virginia, I tried 2 or 3 times to make contact with the 4H club in that area, and could never get a reply. I gave up on them. This was like, ten years ago, but they didn't have a website. I had to contact them through the state department of agriculture or something like that.

[kittywitty]

No 4H website- too rural and most people around here seem computer illiterate. It did feel like we were being excluded with the attitude, but with how disorganized everything else around here has been, I am not terribly surprised. We live about 2-3 blocks away, so we stopped in a lot to talk about 4H signup or get farming pamphlets when out on our daily walks. No other kids clubs, classes, or anything. Like I said, super rural and super exclusive. That or you drive 1.5-2 hours away.

Luckily there is no statement I have to sign per my faith, but their Statement is very specific. It does say that they "require that these beliefs be respected and not undermined during co-op classes". Which I respect, but I don't know if my keeping my kids out of the Creation class would "undermine" them. In fact, they just dropped off the papers and there is the YEC part at the bottom of their Statement of Faith.

[Arduinna]

This doesn't sound like any homeschool group I've ever heard of, since none of the ones I've encountered require participation in all activities. Regardless, it sounds like this group isn't the right fit for you. Since you joined an already existing group I wouldn't expect to try and change their focus or offerings. 

[SweetSilver]

Is that 4H office the only one?  4H is huge in this area.  Close to us are 3 counties and many 4H groups (we have a larger population more or less) and each county has its own office.  Some groups just work with horses or dogs.  Others are "community groups".  I've heard from experienced moms that the right club can be hard to find.  One mom said she switched twice before finding the right fit in a third group.  Our local group the next town over in the next county, but if that doesn't work (we do have a lot of Mennonites around, but also organic farmers and wannabe country suburbanites) we will try our own county.  The next town that way is twenty minutes away, but that would be acceptable.

     Actually, since the 4H program is run by ultimately by your state's land grant university, you can start your own 4H club.  (With whom, I don't know!)  You'll have to contact the state university extension instead of the county extension office if you are having trouble in your own county.

[Vaske]

Conservative Christians come in more than one flavor.  If this group is Committed-But-Harmless conservatives, I would be ok with it, recognizing that my children were attending mainly for socialization.  If the group is more along the lines of Patriarchalist Kooks, I might run away screaming.  For me, the distinction between the two is how they treat people (both insiders and outsiders) who disagree with their beliefs and customs.  Some of these communities are deeply dysfunctional.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by Vaske 

Conservative Christians come in more than one flavor.  If this group is Committed-But-Harmless conservatives, I would be ok with it, recognizing that my children were attending mainly for socialization.  If the group is more along the lines of Patriarchalist Kooks, I might run away screaming.  For me, the distinction between the two is how they treat people (both insiders and outsiders) who disagree with their beliefs and customs.  Some of these communities are deeply dysfunctional.

The fact that they won't allow the OP to opt-out of the Creation class is sort of a clue WRT how "others" are treated.

IMO, there is never anything "harmless" about religious indoctrination.

When my DS2 was little, I allowed him to spend time with some "nice" people in our neighborhood who eventually scared him half to death with talk of Hell and he had nightmares for several months.