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How do you talk to your kids about politicized homophobia and bigotry? - Page 2  

post #21 of 143
Papa! Great to see you about. I'm sorry it's under such shitty circumstances. So great to hear that your beautiful babe is thriving.

What a disgrace! I've just read through the whole linked thread. So, no formal apology, right? Unbelievable.

If a fb group starts up, please, count me in.
post #22 of 143

The formal apology was a big fat LOCK. I know, right? And then locking the AIDS denialism thread in TAO. Sort of cannot believe what I am learning about this place!!

post #23 of 143

I don't know if I can provide and answers or comfort here but I thought I'd post some thoughts for you guys just in case. There is so much going on, seemingly all at once and its hard to sit here with the best of intentions yet to see so much ill intent being assigned to mods and admin (in general).

 

Whether or not people believe this, everyone is doing the best they can. Many of us agree that an apology is needed and I wish people could understand that just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean that it will never happen.

 

I say this understanding that this beloved forum Queer Parenting must have been the hardest hit by the Pat Roberston debacle on facebook. I'm so sorry you guys.

We love you and want you to stay around grouphug.gif

 

 

post #24 of 143

could someone give my a synopsis of what went down.  I read the thread but I couldn't really grasp how all this started.  Thx.

post #25 of 143

okay, I just read the AIDS denialism thread.  Wow, wow, wow.  I had no I idea that Peggy O'Mara had that view on HIV/AIDS.  Working with people who have  HIV/AIDS, I have to say that's pure insanity.  It's a quite real disease that people are dying from in this country.  Oh, I could go on and on and ON.  And the reasons for shutting it down were complete BS.  People should know the core values at MDS, and if AIDS denialism is one of them, daylight it.  

post #26 of 143

Pat Robertson: An article was posted under the Mothering UN in the Adoptive/Foster Parent forum. It was a weird and messed up thing to post there anyway, because the article was about how some lady working at an orphanage loved how the orphans called her mama. Then at the end of the article there was a giant blue link to donate to the org. When I got there there were already a few posts from adoptive parents questioning why Mothering had posted an article that was basically an ad, and questioning that the topic of the article was appropriate for the forum. Someone (a poster with a low post count, NOT the mothering UN) posted:

 

"I work with MDC. I am sorry to hear that you feel this way. MDC supports the efforts of [this org], and they in turn are an MDC sponsor, supporting us. We have always tried to find sponsorship from those who share the ideals of our members. If you have any questions or concerns feel free to PM me on Mothering. Kind regards, Christine"
 

I googled for like 4 seconds and found out that the org was started and is led by Pat Robertson, so I posted that and that I thought it was highly innaproriate and then all hades broke loose. Some half-a$$ed apologies were posted, then a semi-genuine one from Peggy, which I asked if they would make into a formal apology. And the rest is the maelstrom of denial and lockdown that we have now!

 

MoonWIllow, thank you so much for your post. I do know that there is A LOT going on right now, and it is a ton on the moderators' plate. I don't fault the mods unilaterally, but I'm really saddened to see how this has been dealt with. Even if a reply like yours had been posted in response to the MANY people asking for an apology or even an acknowledgment would have meant a lot to me. Instead, people are getting banned, mods are saying "stuff happnes," legitimate threads are getting locked and converations are being shut down. Yes, people keep beating dead horses, but it's because I don't think that our concerns have REALLY been validated, addressed and taken seriously. I actually can't believe that I haven't been banned yet.

post #27 of 143

 

Peggy did apologize on thread (Millet I think you've probably seen) but not in a formal way yet. 

 

I don't know of any mods who are laid back about this. Everyone feels the discord and we are all trying to navigate accordingly. The concerns voiced in the various threads about everything that has been going on are being read and considered. 

 

If a thread was locked under this new UA (being so much less strict than the old one) then there had to be something pretty bad, defamatory or something. It's hard to speak generally about the different things that are going on because well, there's A LOT happening. 

 

Regarding bannings; its just not that simple. Its a case by case basis and its not taken lightly. Speaking your mind on a thread WON'T get you banned. Repeatedly posting UA violations will. 

 

This probably isn't even an appropriate discussion to be having here but as the mod for this forum I wanted to let you guys know that I'm here and listening!   

 

Quote:

 

 MoonWIllow, thank you so much for your post. I do know that there is A LOT going on right now, and it is a ton on the moderators' plate. I don't fault the mods unilaterally, but I'm really saddened to see how this has been dealt with. Even if a reply like yours had been posted in response to the MANY people asking for an apology or even an acknowledgment would have meant a lot to me. Instead, people are getting banned, mods are saying "stuff happnes," legitimate threads are getting locked and converations are being shut down. Yes, people keep beating dead horses, but it's because I don't think that our concerns have REALLY been validated, addressed and taken seriously. I actually can't believe that I haven't been banned yet

 

post #28 of 143

That Cynthia locked the thread when she did, in the manner that she did, using the tone and language that she did was the biggest slap in the face.  Accusing concerned MDC members of being trolls and challenging their intentions was both uncalled for and juvenile.  The apology within the thread is not sufficient when combating (and yes, it is combat!) such a huge and dangerous organization that is all things Pat Robertson.  What with all the changes around here lately (for the worse, in my estimation), it has been hard to fly my MDC flag, but until that thread was so unceremoniously locked -- as was the one about getting to the bottom of MDC's stance on AIDS denialism -- I was more than willing to stick around and see the new shape of things once the dust settled.  But now, the only reason I'm still here is for my queer parenting community.  If I could uproot us all and take us somewhere else, I would.  I miss Mothering; the magazine and the online commune that once was. 

post #29 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by starling&diesel View Post

That the mod locked the thread when she did, in the manner that she did, using the tone and language that she did was the biggest slap in the face.  Accusing concerned MDC members of being trolls and challenging their intentions was both uncalled for and juvenile.  The apology within the thread is not sufficient when combating (and yes, it is combat!) such a huge and dangerous organization that is all things Pat Robertson.  What with all the changes around here lately (for the worse, in my estimation), it has been hard to fly my MDC flag, but until that thread was so unceremoniously locked -- as was the one about getting to the bottom of MDC's stance on AIDS denialism -- I was more than willing to stick around and see the new shape of things once the dust settled.  But now, the only reason I'm still here is for my queer parenting community.  If I could uproot us all and take us somewhere else, I would.  I miss Mothering; the magazine and the online commune that once was. 


Well put! The locking of threads and name calling (trolls) is ridiculous, especially in light of "less moderation".
post #30 of 143

thanks Milletpuff for the recap.  I do think a public apology is required, no matter how things went down with the Operation Blessings endorsement.  When I read the original thread there was a lot of explaining being done, and now that I know someone who is part of MDC stated that MDC supports Operation Blessings and vice versa, yes that is very hurtful.  My feelings are that when you hurt someone you don't sit around justifying and explaining.  You apologize.  You say, "I am so sorry that you've been hurt and it never should have happened."  I'm not hugely emotionally attached to MDC - the old UA was a little too draconian for my taste - so I'm a bit of a dispassionate observer, although I've been participating more in the past few months.  My observation is that not immediately apologizing in a public way does devalue me as a queer member of MDC.  My issues are simply not important.  This makes me quite sad.  I hope some sort of public, formal apology is coming. 

 

As for locking the AIDS denialism thread - total and utter shite.  To do it in a manner that uses name calling (Trolls) and conspiracy theories (smear campaign) is inappropriate.  I think it was the web master/web director who wrote this, which I find shockingly unprofessional.  I'm not flaming by saying this, I'm stating that people who are paid to do a job and to represent a community to the public should be professional in their presentation, use appropriate language and represent their employer with the utmost integrity.  This speaks volumes to me about the inner workings of MDC, that web politics get in the way of professionalism.

 

My two cents.  I still live in fear of the old UA that if I voice my opinion I'll get shut down, so I hope that was okay Moonwillow. 

post #31 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco Infiltrator View Post

thanks Milletpuff for the recap.  I do think a public apology is required, no matter how things went down with the Operation Blessings endorsement.  When I read the original thread there was a lot of explaining being done, and now that I know someone who is part of MDC stated that MDC supports Operation Blessings and vice versa, yes that is very hurtful.  My feelings are that when you hurt someone you don't sit around justifying and explaining.  You apologize.  You say, "I am so sorry that you've been hurt and it never should have happened."  I'm not hugely emotionally attached to MDC - the old UA was a little too draconian for my taste - so I'm a bit of a dispassionate observer, although I've been participating more in the past few months.  My observation is that not immediately apologizing in a public way does devalue me as a queer member of MDC.  My issues are simply not important.  This makes me quite sad.  I hope some sort of public, formal apology is coming. 

 

As for locking the AIDS denialism thread - total and utter shite.  To do it in a manner that uses name calling (Trolls) and conspiracy theories (smear campaign) is inappropriate.  I think it was the web master/web director who wrote this, which I find shockingly unprofessional.  I'm not flaming by saying this, I'm stating that people who are paid to do a job and to represent a community to the public should be professional in their presentation, use appropriate language and represent their employer with the utmost integrity.  This speaks volumes to me about the inner workings of MDC, that web politics get in the way of professionalism.

 

My two cents.  I still live in fear of the old UA that if I voice my opinion I'll get shut down, so I hope that was okay Moonwillow


hug2.gif

 

It's ok. 

 

 

 

post #32 of 143

The title of this thread has little to do with the actual point, I guess?

 

I learned yesterday that the Pride closest to me is also the largest Pride in the midwest.  And while the crazy religious extremists who tend to populate those events showed up, they were far less organized than years past.  My children missed them completely.

 

I am from Ohio.  In 2004 an amendment was made to the Ohio constitution with 62% of the vote to ban gay marriage and civil unions (or anything that resembles marriage).  Those opposed to equality outspent us 4 to 1.  It was the year everyone had to wait in line, in the rain, for several hours to vote, we were trying to oust W and there were even fake ads about there being such a high turn out that republicans were to vote on tuesday and dems should go in to vote on wednesday.  It was quite a year.  I was surrounded in line by people who had no idea what they were voting for on this particular issue.  The women behind me thought if it didn't pass, all married people would have to divorce.  The (straight) man in front of me though if it passed, all gay people would have to get divorced, and since he didn't want anyone telling him he had to get divorced, he wouldn't wish it on anyone else.  They were clueless as we went into the ballot box and my head was about to explode.  Many of my friends were deeply hurt.  We talked about fleeing the state for a safer, more welcoming place to raise our families.

 

In truth, besides that brief moment I have never felt unsafe here.  I know that my friends, family and loved ones support and protect my family, as well as many many others.  I will not be chased from my home by ignorance.  I will certainly not run away when it's obvious that we need a voice of reason here more than ever.  To leave would turn my home over to people who despise me.  That would be like letting them win.  

 

Had those same voters realized the error of their ways once it was pointed out, petitioned, brought to a re-vote and abolished the amendment quietly I would have been thrilled.  If they had gone on to apologize in any capacity, I would have been beside myself (still will if anyone from Ohio is paying attention).  I know that there is a long road to go before true equality is reached.  I know it will take long years of struggle and victory will be sweet when it comes.  I know this because my state is one of many where no equality is recognized.  Yet.  There is hope for the future and if those of us who want to see change ran away at every set back, there would be no progress.

 

To address one other point in the thread, I find ads disguised as threads to be very offensive.  And I think that starting a thread under the ruse of "How do you talk to your kids about politicized homophobia and bigotry" when that's not really the desired direction of the conversation is a slap in the face.  I don't want to be manipulated by anyone, regardless of their ambition or end goal.

 

post #33 of 143

Seraf I think its accurate to say that there is a back story along with the OP's question.

 

Its slightly OT to discuss the back story but I decided to allow it this time because of the serious nature of the way people in this specific forum are feeling in light of recent events.  

post #34 of 143

Thank you Moonwillow.  I appreciate you letting this discussion develop. 

 

If it needs to be brought full circle, the way we deal with homophobia, heterosexism and bigotry directed at ourselves is a reflection of how we deal with it directed at our families and witnessed by our children.  Do we stand up when it's not witnessed by our kids, like here on MDC?  Do we maintain rightous outrage in the face of what is truly wrong?  Do we step back and justify what has been done?  I can understand a mistake in advertising, and while I don't have a huge opinion about sponsored threads beyond them being a bit manipulative, if things had stopped there and then it had been redacted, fine.  A misunderstanding has happened.  But someone actually stated that MDC is supported by and in turn supports a homophobic organiziation.  If this were the Truth, then this is not the place for me.  If I have no outrage in this forum, no expectation that this error will be addressed appropriately here, how can I go out in the real world and show my children to live with integrity and pride in who they are.  So I don't think this is some sort of manipulation, it's an organic outgrowth of a conversation about how we deal with discrmination as families and as individuals.  How we deal with it in public (WBC) in private (families) and amongst friends (MDC).  If I have no expectation that I will be respected and my issues will be valued, I have no respect for myself. If I have no respect for myself, I cannot teach my kids to respect themselves either and stand up for what is right.  It is not off-topic, it's all interconnected.  

 

I'm grateful for this conversation.  Clearly there are people here who are hurt and feeling outside of a community they value.  As their support community I feel it's owed to recognize this and address it, not to parse it down to manipulation.  Just as our children act out when they are feeling out of sorts, out of bounds, hurt or in pain, so do we as adults.  When my wonderful beautiful son hits me because he's angry that I refused him a sucker, it's not his attempts to maniuplate and get his way, it's his inner distress exploding onto the safest person he knows.  In the way that we must be safe for our children, I feel when we are in community with others - IRL, internet, wherever - we owe it to be safe for them as well.  There are a lot of people who see MDC as a safe place, THEIR safe place.   

 

My opinion.  Take it or leave it.  I must now drop my philisophical parenting self and go take care of my patients.  xoxo.     

post #35 of 143

Seraf ... The thread was started with a valid, timely question, and then took on a very much needed life of it's own, clearly reflecting the current atmosphere that is affecting many areas of the boards.  There is no face-slapping in that.

post #36 of 143

Seraf, I am sorry that you feel like you were manipulated. I think the discussion is valid, needed and important no matter what the back story was. FTMPapa asked in his original post:


"What would you do if an organization you support, and whose goals you generally agree with, supports a political or religious figure who promotes homophobia and hatred? "

 

We are all actively trying to work out what this means and how to deal with it. That is the point of this thread, and the discussions that happened here before the back stroy was shared are important and totally relevant.

post #37 of 143

Hi All,
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by starling&diesel View Post

Sigh and moan.  That thread has now been closed in a most offensive, unceremonious way, which makes me *that* much closer to saying so long to MDC permanently.  Is there anywhere else we can go and still attract new folks?  I don't want to lose the friends I've made here over the years.  So sad.  So horrible. I'm with papa and wherli on this one. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by megincl View Post

Just tried to post a response. Frustrated to be shut out of the dia/mono-logue, particularly when there's been no apology. Seems like a HUGE slap in the face to our whole little sub-community over here in QP, as well as to so many others.....

 

I'll say that, though I've been mostly quiet in the past months, I do like the idea of a space like this/this space to look to, knowing there will be some similar-minded folks waiting to think about and listen to my questions and concerns.



I just wanted to add my agreement to the comments above.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonWillow View Post

I don't know if I can provide and answers or comfort here but I thought I'd post some thoughts for you guys just in case. There is so much going on, seemingly all at once and its hard to sit here with the best of intentions yet to see so much ill intent being assigned to mods and admin (in general).

 

Whether or not people believe this, everyone is doing the best they can. Many of us agree that an apology is needed and I wish people could understand that just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean that it will never happen.

 

I say this understanding that this beloved forum Queer Parenting must have been the hardest hit by the Pat Roberston debacle on facebook. I'm so sorry you guys.

We love you and want you to stay around grouphug.gif

 

 



MoonWillow, thank you for yoru comments. I do hope an apology WILL happen even thought it has not yet happened.



Quote:
Originally Posted by milletpuff View Post
MoonWIllow, thank you so much for your post. I do know that there is A LOT going on right now, and it is a ton on the moderators' plate. I don't fault the mods unilaterally, but I'm really saddened to see how this has been dealt with.

 

I so agree!
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by milletpuff View Post

FTMPapa asked in his original post:


"What would you do if an organization you support, and whose goals you generally agree with, supports a political or religious figure who promotes homophobia and hatred? "

 

We are all actively trying to work out what this means and how to deal with it. That is the point of this thread, and the discussions that happened here before the back stroy was shared are important and totally relevant.


Thank you FTMPapa for this original question and for all of the dialogues. This is an issue that I've thought about and struggled with and I appreciate all of the thoughts shared on this and other threads on this topic.

 

I also wanted to add a quick note to say that I am not a super frequent poster in this forum (though I identifiy as a queer woman and my family identifies as a queer family) or on MDC, but I am a frequent reader. I come to the Queer Parenting forum every time I'm online. And so many of you have posted posts that have made me smile, made me think, given me edits for parenting, helped me and my family feel a part of a larger community...and I just want to say thank you. Sometimes you touch people you don't even realize that you're touching.

 

I had hoped to become a little less shy and a little more active on these boards, but with the recent changes, I'm very hesitant. I would so much like to continue to be part of an AP/NFL queer parenting community.

 

post #38 of 143

I like a call-to-action thread as much as the next girl.  Like apologies, I prefer they be prompt and prominent.  I would have loved a chance to have my voice heard before the discussion dissolved into an "everything I hate about mothering" free for all.  The way it was presented but not really brought to our attention for 2 and a half days seems as tacky and ingenuine as the idea of disguising ads as threads.

 

post #39 of 143

We try to be proactive before anything happens, so we have a context. We have lots of pro-queer family books that are read to him, we surround ourselves with supportive queers and their culture, and he plays at a UU church with other queer and queer-positive families.

 

When he finally encounters boneheadedness (please please please don't let it be soon), I will be there for his feelings and allow him whichever ones he has and then try and explore it with him.

 

Personally, I have no tolerance for hatred wrapped in a religious flag. I am in seminary and am a theologian. I know these are corrupt thoughts hiding behind theology, and will let my son know how I feel about that (here is a blog post about how I feel: http://parentingbythelightofthemoon.blogspot.com/2010/10/religion-and-spirituality.html

 

There are more, but that's a starting point.

post #40 of 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by seraf View Post

I like a call-to-action thread as much as the next girl.  Like apologies, I prefer they be prompt and prominent.  I would have loved a chance to have my voice heard before the discussion dissolved into an "everything I hate about mothering" free for all.  The way it was presented but not really brought to our attention for 2 and a half days seems as tacky and ingenuine as the idea of disguising ads as threads.

 


Really? It seems to me that you are saying that FTMPapa's post is in as poor taste as the original Pat Roberson ad post. Am I interpreting correctly?
 

 

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