Originally Posted by Bokonon
But there is also a pro-vaccination faction on here that regularly debates in the vax forums. There is as you say "buzzing of negativity" from pro-vax folks here too.
Originally Posted by lkvosu
I'm a total newbie, and I don't "know" any of you. I have been lurking on this board for about a year but only recently began posting. I wasn't even going to post in this thread because, well, who cares what I think, right? After seeing the above post, though, I really felt compelled to add my two cents. I like the low moderation as it pertains to subject matter and dissenting opinions, as long as no one actually advocates spanking, CIO, or circ. But what I don't like is that someone could be as rude as this poster was. Shouldn't this kind of hateful attitude be regulated? If it isn't going to be, then, like other posters have mentioned, MDC won't be any better than Babycenter. And I don't mean to single out the person who posted this, but this is the worst example I've seen of the disrespect that many are complaining about. I'm sure there are worse examples to be found, but I don't follow MDC closely enough to know of any.
For the record, I'm going to vote "other".
Everyone cares what you think. That's why we are here, to talk about what we think and hear what other people think. I'm glad that you are speaking out. I'm sorry for my hateful and upsetting speech yesterday....I'm really an extremely nice person IRL who, like many people, can tend to be a bit more "outgoing" when she's mad on the interwebs. My high strung self goes into overdrive and with no actual person physically sitting in front of me to remind me of my humanity, I go off on long rants and my anger comes off as far more intense on the page than it is in my heart.
MY APOLOGIES TO EVERYONE who had their energetic space assaulted by my negativity yesterday, I hope very much that I did not cause too many frowns or frustrations, it wasn't my intention.
Let me clear up why it is I got so angry:
Even on this board, I am a weirdo to many people. My views and beliefs and the way I live my life exist on the outter fringes EVEN IN THIS COMMUNITY. In my real life I have to hide a lot of who I am, because I'm just so sick of people being like "wow, you look really normal, I wouldn't have guessed that you...well, you know...aren't" - it's not funny, it's not cute and it makes me really tired to constantly have to explain and defend myself.
Then, there is this place. MDC. This community has meant so much to me over the years...I come and go, get burnt out sometimes by the moderation, etc....but always come back and enjoy the people here so much. What I don't enjoy, is that more and more in the last few years, the community has shifted and people with much more mainstream views have come to learn and participate and I began to notice (while I was SO HAPPY for the differing opinions and hearty debate) that a new brand of the kind of judgement and disgust at my lifestyle I'm used to seeing in "mainstreamy" places in the real world, began to exists more prevelently in THIS place.
As much as it hurts me to have my mother in law tell me "UC is dangerous, if you care about your baby, you have people there to help you" - it REALLY REALLY hurts to be here in this place, where I think I feel understood, to be going about my business and out of nowhere get hit with "UC is shameful and any mother who is considering it is saying that she is okay with holding a dead baby in her arms" - coming from the women here, who, even if I don't know them, I consider sisters in motherhood...fellow birth warriors no matter HOW you delivered your children....that punches just about a bazooka sized hole in the heart of me. It's not fair. It really, really hurts.
So yeah, I'm sorry if I was rude or hurtful. I readily admit that I was wrong to be that way and I also admit that the kind of behavior I displayed yesterday is not what is going to bring back the sense of community and closeness I miss having here....but what other people have got to understand is this:
When you all are sitting in your chair, writing about how "there SHOULD be dissenting opinion on the UC forum" - I don't disagree with you. Dissent brings better truth and lifts everyone higher. If you go to the UC forum, you can see examples of dissent which fit within the guidelines of that forum. But what the "dissenting opionion" *I* feel you guys are talking about usually ends being, is JUDGEMENT....and when I get all hot under the collar and start calling people names...that emotion is not coming out of nowhere. Behind that rage, is the intensity of many many years of trying WITHIN THE CRUNCHY BIRTH COMMUNITY to gain a little ground, a little respect, for the rights of a mother to chooses UC...and being shot down every. single. time.
That rage and poison is backed by memories of a good friend, holding a limp, dead baby, waiting for the ambulance to get there while her mother screamed and raged at her that this was all her fault....only this mother, the babys father and myself seemed to understand that this baby would have perished no matter where she was born. I've known women who lost babies in the hospital and with a midwife and also UCing. It is inevitable, when you make it your life to be involved in the birthing community, that you will know women who lose babies in all sorts of ways/places. Throwing around the term "dead babies" takes on a completely different meaning when you've actually held a dead baby in your arms. When you have heard the howling grief of a mother who will not see the fruit of her womb grow into a laughing, happy child. There is nothing that can describe that. It is so surreal....you cannot tell me I don't care about dead babies, or that I don't know how serious that is...this was not even my baby, but in that moment I would have traded my own life to give that baby back it's own....it was SO real. "Dead babies" this and that...can be thrown around so casually, until you are in the presence of a dead baby. It's just there. It's real. Don't tell me I don't take it seriously enough, I know how completely serious it is.
People were shocked by my statement, that if it's not your baby you don't get to care. I didn't mean in the general sense...like in the sense that many of us "care" about little boys who are facing circumsicion and the fight we are in to try and get awareness about circ out there. I don't mean care like that. I mean these women who ****stand in a place of "caring" that supposes they have the right to judge a mother for the death of her child***. If you weren't there, if you don't know all the facts, if you don't have to hear the screams of this woman and know her agony, if you don't stand there, seeing the nature of a marriage shifting in front of you, as a father looks at a mother with eyes that say "what did you do, what could you have done differently" - you don't get to stand between a mother and her dead child and cast stones. It's not your place, it's not your business and it diminishes that womans ability to heal and move on.
I am an extremely emotional person when it comes to children and birth and mothers. But I'm also a firm believer that my ship is mine. My choices are mine. Becuase I come from a place of education and hunger for knowledge, UC is safe for me....plenty of times I have given helpful advice or information to a mother who comes looking for it...but it's not my place to tell someone that they are not educated enough...it's not my business. Kind of like how, if someone needs the information about circ or vax, I'll put it out there, for SURE.....but when they look at me and say "I know what I'm doing, I know what I want for my child" - my work is done.
"UC is dangerous" - not putting out helpful information.
"UC it's not right for you to take this much control over your birthing process" - not putting out helpful information.
"I think I've heard of this before. You are describing symptoms that lead me to believe you could experience trouble in labor, it's not normal to feel that breathless, I would seek the care of a midwife to see if you should go ahead with your plans to UC" - That's helpful.
Just as many times as I've said "go for it mama, happy UC" - I've said "This sounds wierd and not right, I think it's time for your "better safe than sorry" back up plan, mama". But across the board judgement and snarky comments of general disapproval do not help anyone.
Anyway, I'm just rambling now. We should all try and avoid being as rude as I was yesterday and I apologize again for shooting any negative energy rays into anyones life. But understand that there is more than one way to be rude...and when you say things like "UC mamas have given terrible advice and babies have DIED as a result" - man, that hurts on such a deep level. I called you guys "rubber neckers" - I shouldn't have called you ANY names, but let's be honest, you probably laughed and were like "what a lunatic" . You called UC mamas complicit in baby killing....you called UC mamas murderers of their chidlren...all I could think about yesterday was those couple of really bad births I've been to in my life. It just cuts so deep to be so misunderstood in a place where you feel you should belong.
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama
Totally agree. And to the poster who stated that all the UC mamas have done their research and soul searching... I'm sorry, but that is just obviously not true, or the "research" they are looking at is majorly flawed. There have been some scarily uninformed posters on the UC board who have been encouraged to continue with UC despite it being obviously dangerous in the situations they described and asked for advice on. One particular UC advocate who has since supposedly left these boards chronically gave out terrible, dangerous information. She followed up any comments voicing concern about UC with straight up attacks on the poster, including skilled midwives and others who have been UC supporters or had UCs themself. I'm not going to sit back and shut up when that is the kind of "research" some of these mamas are doing.
Avery'sMama--You had some fantastic points and I can see how you're ticked about UC if you are someone who has actually done real research and soul searching. You can still hold your beliefs while admitting that there are some, and maybe a minority, of posts on the UC forum that are downright dangerous and continue to be perpetuated by die-hard UC advocates (no pun intended.) An impressive rant, indeed, as someone else mentioned. I do think though that you have a real double standard when it comes to some of the judgements you made about things other than UC.
Hi APToddlerMama, thank you for speaking to me with such a mellow tone even though I was being crazy and angry. I agree that there have been women who have encouraged what I would consider "dangerously uneducated" women who were planning to UC....but I can honestly say that in each and every one of those cases, other hardcore UC mamas have stepped up and said "Actually, I think this sounds realllly yucky and I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to seek immediate help. Don't mess around and end up really sorry" - UC at all costs cannot be the mantra....but "UC should be frowned upon" shouldn't be the mantra either. Go to a mainstream forum and watch as hordes of women sit around and talk about homebirthers like they are baby killers "Homebirth is so dangerous, why would anyone take that risk when they don't need to" - these women clearly don't understand the desire to homebirth. Why do I have to face that same judgement here on MDC from homebirthing mamas? "UC is so dangerous, why would anyone take that risk when they don't need to" - these women clearly don't understand the desire to UC.....it's the exact same level of ignorance.
Originally Posted by Maedze
Wow. Yes, I am a person that supports seatbelt laws. The fact that you clearly intended that to be an insult is making me laugh. Or, at least it would, if I weren't so absolutely appalled at your callous and self-absorbed words in regards to babies who have suffered and died because of UC.
Yes, you're absolutely right, I don't believe that your super-duper special experience trumps a baby's right (as I said, I have never posted in the UC forum, or did you just miss that?) to not be put at risk. I have read the UC forum and seen such horrifying displays of ignorance about basic bodily functions and neglect that I've gasped out loud. What's making me want to cry is that you aren't even pretending this is anything about your selfish needs to do what you want....suffering and dying babies are just, well, a side effect. As long as you get your perfect UC birth. Holy crow.
These types of comments, suggesting that I think my "super duper special experience" trumps my babies right not to be put at risk is so cold at it's core...imagine that, how very very cold a statement that is to make about a person. Would you ever say that to my face? Do you realize that I would argue with someone until I passed out if they ever came up to YOU and said that to YOU about YOUR homebirthing?? How come I"M not entitled to the same choice when it comes to MY birth. Because it's not YOUR choice and YOU wouldn't feel comfortable with it. So then, next time I see someone who thinks the hospital is best attacking a homebirthin' mama...that HB mama is on her own, right? NO - because in MY WORLD all of us mamas have to stand together for BIRTH CHOICE...NOT "Birth Choice (so long as that choice involves a certified birth worker)".
RE: Seatbelt laws. We shouldn't even go down this road. It's off topic and I'm BTDT. I just end up cross eyed. Suffice it to say, your political leanings and MINE aresooooo far apart. I respect yours. But please don't be petitioning my law makers to sign mandates that dictate how I should live my life.
Originally Posted by Maedze
Oh, as far as Avery'smama being rude, well, yes, she was, but I've been around the block a few times and can handle a little rudeness. It doesn't phase me. Plus, she's so obviously off the reservation that she could probably tell me to go to do something anatomically impossible to myself and I wouldn't do much more than blink and ask for a diagram. As someone who doesn't need heavy-handed moderation, I'm perfectly comfortable looking past the rudeness, to the actual content of her words, which is far, far more disturbing than her rude language.
My apologies again for the intense rudeness. I'm so sorry you were disturbed by my words...in my anger I did a lousy job explaining where I was coming from. If in my first response in this post, I have not shown you that I'm not really a monster baby-hater and cleared up some of what I percieved to be misconceptions about my belief system, my apologies again for your distress at my views, I'm sorry we do not see eye to eye.
Originally Posted by 2xy
When people set themselves up to become human projectiles that may injure me or my family, it's my business.
Oh. Does this mean that you support seatbelt laws because you are afraid that you will one day be walking down the street and will be struck and injured or, worse, killed by a body as it is flying out of a car that has been in an accident? Or, that you will be on the road driving, someone close to you on the road will be in an accident and that their body will fly from their vehicle, strike your vehicle and cause you to get in an accident as well? I'm not being snarky, I've actually got another browser window open and am looking all over the internet for information about this "injury by human projectiles" - but I can't find it. None of these "why we need seatbelt laws" activists group seem to be picking up on the "human projectile" risk associated with driving sans seatbelt...they only cite things like "injuries caused by not wearing a seatbelt cost lives and taxpayers money, blah blah blah" - but see, I don't believe in taxes and also respect your right to behave foolishly and die...soooo I'm still not sold on the seatbelt laws. Or, really, any law but natural law...which worked for a REALLY long time before the type of government construct we live in today came along and tried to nanny state us into a world of tiny boxes and little perfect houses, all in a row. It's been many many hundreds of years (thousands, even) since kings and presidents and senators, etc have been forcing this idea that we are not capable of governing ourselves even in the smallest areas of our lives....that idea is a false one. Small groups of people deciding they want to live a certain way is good. Massive groups of people being told by small groups of people "this is how you will live, we will hunt you down and make you pay if you do not follow these gobs and gobs of laws we write....oh, plus, spend all your time pushing paper in an office and paying us taxes so we can wage constant war on other people and support businesses that kill our earth and make sure congressmen have excellent benefits packages" - that is what we live in. It is not good for our souls.
But the beauty of life is, I could be wrong, and it's all going to be okay anyway.
I'm sorry again for yesterday. I have such intense anger management issues when I'm online. I have to cop to that and I need to really take action to curb the behavior. I think it's the lack of human connection because when I debate in real life, I'm very respectful and completely enjoy the exchange and I don't get angry like this AT ALL. I think the lack of a human face, registering understanding, etc makes me go from "defensive" to "WILDLY out of control" in just about a split seconds time. Again, peace to everyone, I'm embarrassed at my behavior and sorry for it.