WWYD: K or 1st-- moving and cut-off dates. Anyone NEVER do K??

[KCMichigan]

Here is the set-up:

I have twin DDs - age 5.  Neither formally identified as GT. Fall Birthday.

DD1 : has mild special needs (physical in nature- not toilet trained) that could be a potentially massive social implications but unlikely to be solved in a year or two. She is a leader to her peers. Reading fluently- approx early 3rd level depending on the text. Writing complete sentences/stories with fairly accurate spelling. Math has scatter skills, since she has little interest- but can +/- single digit numbers mentally, read # up to 1,000, and problem solve well. Easily tearing through Magic Tree House books with full comprehension. Small small stature (40" and 34 lbs). Social and outgoing but can push limits/rules. D.r.i.v.e.n. and obsessive.

DD2: mild special needs (low endurance and some social immaturity). Quirky in her actions and language. Loner, more attracted to adults than other kids (besides her twin). Reading late 2nd. Prefers non-fiction like Ranger Rick and DK informational texts. writing very simple sentences with phonetic spelling. Very high science knowledge. Creative. Math is easily 1st- understands simple division/multiplication and can mentally +/- up to a sum of 20, can tell time, read large numbers. Easily upset, fatigues quickly. People pleaser and wants to do well. Socially naive but very affectionate. Average height and slender.

Where we live now-- they will feed into K next fall. No exceptions for cut-off date. HIGH red-shirting area. All day K. Most kids are 'at least' 5.5 at the start of K. My girls would be 5y9m They were signed up for a K/1 split class to help match age with abilities. They had GT programming starting in K.

But we are moving--new state will allow then to enter 1st due to age placement. Areas all have 1/2 day K .Red-shirting does NOT happen (due to late cut off and 1/2 day programs). Kids are 4y8m to 5y8m at the start of K. If we do 1st they will be among the youngest at 5y 9m, but not THE youngest. No GT programming at all except AP at HS levels.

Issues: My kiddos would have never had done K if we do 1st grade placement. We will have recently moved. Lots of changes. DD2 may have trouble socially and possibly with the writing. DD1 would likely do fine once she picked up a few math skill 'gaps' but she will need an IEP for her physical disability.

What would you do? Do K and have it be really really easy with kiddos that are younger (they would be oldest) or put them in 1st and hope DD2 adjusts to all the changes quickly while trying to adapt to the higher standards of 1st from a play based preschool setting.

UGH! Anyone been there- done that? With Spec.Needs and advanced kiddos?

[whatsnextmom]

I'm a little confused. Why do you say there is no red-shirting due to the late cut-off? Typically, late cut-offs result in very, very high red-shirting trends. Have you checked with the particular school about this? I live in a state with a Dec. 1st cut-off, in a lower to middle class area and red-shirting is rampant. 1/2 day can make a little difference but even then, you'd still see a fair amount of red-shirting unless this is an impoverished area where childcare is an issue. I'd double check this information when you arrive in your new state. It just doesn't ring accurate to me and I'm in one of those late cut-off states.

It's hard for me to say what I'd do in your situation. I mean, both my kids started 1st grade at 5 (DD due to a mid-year grade skip, DS due to a late fall birthday.) I am glad they both went to kindergarten even in DD's situation. I'm glad they are where they are despite being the youngest. Then again, DD has no special needs and while DS is dyslexic, it's a mild case that has pretty much been a non-issue since second grade.

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by whatsnextmom 

I'm a little confused. Why do you say there is no red-shirting due to the late cut-off? Typically, late cut-offs result in very, very high red-shirting trends. Have you checked with the particular school about this? I live in a state with a Dec. 1st cut-off, in a lower to middle class area and red-shirting is rampant. 1/2 day can make a little difference but even then, you'd still see a fair amount of red-shirting unless this is an impoverished area where childcare is an issue. I'd double check this information when you arrive in your new state. It just doesn't ring accurate to me and I'm in one of those late cut-off states.

It's accurate info as odd as it may seem.I lived in the area we are moving to for 9 years and as recently as a year ago.Not the exact city, but I am equally familiar with it.. Red-shirting is rare. Often kiddos will redo K or do Young 5s if they are a fall birthday AND qualify (not just a parent choice has to be Ok'd by administration). Actually- I was shocked when we moved here (to where we currently are) about the extent of red-shirting since it just was not common where we came from.

Yes, it is an area that is hit hard economically and childcare is an issue- lots and lots of job loss in the area. People cant afford childcare/preschool or are working evening/odd hour/one spouse double jobs jobs due to childcare issues. Also a high quality 4 yr old preschool program that is free 'the year before kindergarten'  for a sizable number of kids that would be at risk for not doing well in K (the kiddos are screened). I actually taught in a neighboring district before my kids were born. Red-shirting just does not happen that often, if the child is age eligible---90/95% of the time they go the K. It was not uncommon to repeat K though if needed.

I am aware it is a regional issue. Yes, this area has a late cut-off but I know both the area and teachers/friends in the area that I have already talked to about it since I know it can vary even between districts. But for the most part- the entire county we will be moving to and the one next to it (a potential living area due to short commute) has little red-shirting. K kids are  5, 1st graders are 6 at the start of the year...etc. We will get to pick from about 5 school districts that have good schools depending on where we live (there are some less desirable districts, but we should be able to find something in some of the better areas).

Yes- a mid year skip is an option. But I just dont know if I want to shake up my kiddos (normally I would be fine with it, actually it was on the table in the current state in the K/1 class) after a move, new school, new area, new house, one more change may put DD2 over the edge.

[serenbat]

depending on your state (the one moving to?) you may just want to skip K

in my state K is not funded and it's up to every district what they do- some are great and others it's not worth bothering so based on what you hope to get you may wish skip-again I would look into where you are moving and what 1st is like (again in my state every district does what they want and some 1st are really like a K program- we have no state mandate or state wide curriculum)

[whatsnextmom]

Interesting. We have a free state preschool program too but still, DS had kids in kindergarten turning 7 and they weren't repeating kindergarten. If you are sure that is the case, I'd go with 1st then. Being the very oldest rarely helps gifted children and they are in the appropriate age range for their area. Like I said, mine were both 5 when they started 1st grade and they just finished 5th and 9th grades and doing great. They are always the youngest by a few months to 1.5 years in their regular classes and more so in their accelerated classes.

Originally Posted by KCMichigan 

It's accurate info as odd as it may seem.I lived in the area we are moving to for 9 years and as recently as a year ago.Not the exact city, but I am equally familiar with it.. Red-shirting is rare. Often kiddos will redo K or do Young 5s if they are a fall birthday AND qualify (not just a parent choice has to be Ok'd by administration). Actually- I was shocked when we moved here (to where we currently are) about the extent of red-shirting since it just was not common where we came from.

Yes, it is an area that is hit hard economically and childcare is an issue- lots and lots of job loss in the area. People cant afford childcare/preschool or are working evening/odd hour/one spouse double jobs jobs due to childcare issues. Also a high quality 4 yr old preschool program that is free 'the year before kindergarten'  for a sizable number of kids that would be at risk for not doing well in K (the kiddos are screened). I actually taught in a neighboring district before my kids were born. Red-shirting just does not happen that often, if the child is age eligible---90/95% of the time they go the K. It was not uncommon to repeat K though if needed.

I am aware it is a regional issue. Yes, this area has a late cut-off but I know both the area and teachers/friends in the area that I have already talked to about it since I know it can vary even between districts. But for the most part- the entire county we will be moving to and the one next to it (a potential living area due to short commute) has little red-shirting. K kids are  5, 1st graders are 6 at the start of the year...etc. We will get to pick from about 5 school districts that have good schools depending on where we live (there are some less desirable districts, but we should be able to find something in some of the better areas).

Yes- a mid year skip is an option. But I just dont know if I want to shake up my kiddos (normally I would be fine with it, actually it was on the table in the current state in the K/1 class) after a move, new school, new area, new house, one more change may put DD2 over the edge.

[ChristaN]

A couple thoughts --

I'm really not a fan of using size as a factor in determining grade placement.  That, of course, may be b/c much of my family is very small.  My dd10 will be starting 6th grade in the fall weighing all of 56 lbs and at 4'4" tall unless she hits some huge growth spurt in the next two months.  We could have held the kid out forever and she'd still be one of the smaller kids in grade.  Some people are just destined to be small.

The issue that I see as the largest for your first dd is not being potty trained.  That, coupled with being small, may make her appear to be a lot younger to the other kids and I could see it causing some teasing.  Is potty training something that is going to ever happen or happen in the reasonably near future?  Like size, if it isn't something that is going to go away with time, I guess that I wouldn't have it play a major issue in my determination, though.

It seems like their educational needs would be easier to meet in a higher grade although they're still going to need some accommodations.  My dd10 is 2e (HG & ADD), but has no physical special needs, so I don't have experience with what you're dealing with.  She was about on par with where your second dd is now academically going into K but her academic progress has been in fits and starts and has had periods of years where it seems like she makes little to no progress.  I think for her not advancing more has been fine due to the erratic nature of her achievement.  She was 5 yrs 10 months going into 1st.  I'm not sure if being a grade back would have worked or not for her.

I guess that my gut feel would be to put them in 1st and try to find a way to deal with the SN.  

[Linda on the move]

Oh my!!!  I remember how happy you were with the school you had planned for the fall!!! 

Neither of my kids did K. We homeschooled when they were young and the entered school when they were a bit older, and went into their age appropriate grades.

My older DD is 2E (asperger's) and has a fall birthday. Her birthday falls (and we've left her placed) where she is one of the older students, which in most ways seems right *for her. *  For her, anxiety is a HUGE issue so keeping things as easy as possible academically is more appropriate for her emotional health, and we have school that does a lovely job of accommodating her within her grade to provide so that she is still learning, just with the least pressure possible.

However, in your new situation and with your kiddos, I think I would go for the higher grade. Here's why:

1. I'm a huge fan of keeping kids with their age mates whenever possible, and in your case where you will be living, that's the higher grade.

2. Although they may each have a few little gaps here and there, they are both overall ready for first grade work, and would most likely be bored in a regular K class. From what you said about your kids and about the school, I suspect that first would be a better fit.

3. It doesn't sound like there any solid accommodations for giftedness for several years (though you can stay hopeful that they will be blessed with regular classroom teachers who are able to enrich their lives)

About your specific concerns:

<<<My kiddos would have never had done K if we do 1st grade placement. >>>>

yes, but haven't they done a couple of years of preschool? They have experience with leaving you, having another teacher, working in a group, etc. K is really different from place to place, and everything important from K gets repeated in first. I don't see skipping it as a huge deal (but my kids didn't do preschool, K, or 1st-4th, so I may not be the best one to ask!)

<<<We will have recently moved. Lots of changes. >>>>

That's true no matter which grade you put them in. Being a grade with their age mates with material they don't already know would seem better after a transition. The problem I see with K for them is that it isn't play based preschool, which can work fine for advanced kiddos, but sitting down and learning basic skills, which your kids already have. It's one thing to PLAY, it's another thing to *learn* the alphabet when you can already read AND are older than the other kids.

<<<<<DD2 may have trouble socially and possibly with the writing. >>>

That may be true even if she waits a year, and I personally believe that for kids with special needs, figuring out sooner to start intervention or get the right 504 in place makes more sense that waiting for them to outgrow it.

I wouldn't be a fan of accelerating your DD, but putting her in the right grade *for where you live* isn't accelerating. If writing IS a problem, then you can have her fine motor skills checked and see if she needs OT, accommodation, etc. (My 2E DD has pretty serious fine motor issues).

<<DD1 would likely do fine once she picked up a few math skill 'gaps' but she will need an IEP for her physical disability.>>>>

First grade math will review K math and then build from there. It will most likely give her something to think about since even in the higher grade, she'll still be ahead in reading. She'll need the IEP either way.

I'm sorry to hear that your family has such an big upheaval coming. I hope that things go really well for you, and that your new city is full of wonderful surprises that work well for you and your kids. Every place has wonderful things about it, and I hope that you are able to discover those and that eventually this move will feel like it was a blessing.

[Tigerle]

I am so sorry to hear this, after all the work you put into finding the right school for them for K/1st.

Living in another country, I have no business whatsoever to talk about whether a child does or does not need to go to K, but I wanted to remind you that 1st grade was the grade you wanted them in for this year in the first place. So that's where they can go now - in that way, the move may be a boon, not just a problem. And like Linda said, they've been to pre-K, and they will be at a new school, a new classroom, whether it's K or 1st. I wouldn't worry about the grade and put my energy into finding the right school again.

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by ChristaN 

--

  Some people are just destined to be small.

She will just be small! I only mention size since it seems to be a common thread for old/young kiddos. I am small, but DH is tall- so who knows how she will end up!

The issue that I see as the largest for your first dd is not being potty trained.  That, coupled with being small, may make her appear to be a lot younger to the other kids and I could see it causing some teasing.  Is potty training something that is going to ever happen or happen in the reasonably near future?  Like size, if it isn't something that is going to go away with time, I guess that I wouldn't have it play a major issue in my determination, though.

No- we anticipated at least 2+ years of 'issues' related to potty training. It is an unknown element right now if it is permanent or if surgery will be needed.

I guess that my gut feel would be to put them in 1st and try to find a way to deal with the SN.  

That is my gut feeling to--- but the area we are moving to is more 'rigorous' academically. Not that I am worried they cant do it-- I am more worried about too many changes and then pushing DD2 academically (she will shut down emotionally when under duress so academics will be least of her concerns).

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Oh my!!!  I remember how happy you were with the school you had planned for the fall!!! 

I KNOW!! I am not happy about it. The school we had planned for this fall was PERFECT fit K/1 class, but still meet their social/emotional needs.

Neither of my kids did K. We homeschooled when they were young and the entered school when they were a bit older, and went into their age appropriate grades.

yes, but haven't they done a couple of years of preschool? They have experience with leaving you, having another teacher, working in a group, etc. K is really different from place to place, and everything important from K gets repeated in first. I don't see skipping it as a huge deal (but my kids didn't do preschool, K, or 1st-4th, so I may not be the best one to ask!)

Yes, we did PreK twice....(long story both free through the local schools). I have zero worries about them working well with a teacher/separation. They have had so many therapies over the years- they both easily transition to adults in charge.

I hoping that missing K in the state we are moving from is not a big deal. There it is more academic-y in nature than where we are coming from. So it is more the 'expectations' from a play based PreK this year to a very academically based 1st. The expectation/culture shock is more worrisome than the actual academic workload.

<<<<<DD2 may have trouble socially and possibly with the writing. >>>

That may be true even if she waits a year, and I personally believe that for kids with special needs, figuring out sooner to start intervention or get the right 504 in place makes more sense that waiting for them to outgrow it.

I wouldn't be a fan of accelerating your DD, but putting her in the right grade *for where you live* isn't accelerating. If writing IS a problem, then you can have her fine motor skills checked and see if she needs OT, accommodation, etc. (My 2E DD has pretty serious fine motor issues).

We have had 2+ years of OT & PT- as recently as last year. So it is a concern for DD2. Play-based PreK allowed her to use more verbal expression and art rather than early writing. 1st will be a different animal for her- she is very very verbal and may resist writing a lot since it is difficult physically and mentally. But- yes, delaying it is unlikely to make it 'more' of an enjoyable task.

I'm sorry to hear that your family has such an big upheaval coming. I hope that things go really well for you, and that your new city is full of wonderful surprises that work well for you and your kids. Every place has wonderful things about it, and I hope that you are able to discover those and that eventually this move will feel like it was a blessing.

Thank you. I think part of it is the sorrow at leaving the absolutely ideal  school setup and starting all over. We moved here last year-- two moves in two years is just tiring emotionally.I have very mixed feelings about moving to this new state so I think that bleeds into all other aspects, including future schooling for the girls.

You are so sweet. I keep telling myself that it will all work out and for DH it IS a wonderful fantastic opportunity- so I am happy for him and what it means for our family. 

I'll keep you all updated. So far out of the 4 potential school districts we may move into--- 2 said that they would place based in experience (put them in K) point blank, 1 said they would age place, and the last one said they would assess the girls with a 1st grade teacher and then make a suggestion. K is not mandatory in the state we are moving into.

I am leaning toward that last district!! I am all for a district that does not decide a blanket statement but is willing to assess to situation--- it seems to have the most potential to try to make things work. Now have to find housing that would drop us in that area is the next issue....

Originally Posted by Tigerle 

I am so sorry to hear this, after all the work you put into finding the right school for them for K/1st.

Thank you... read above (it was supposed to be below all the quotes, dont know what happened). I am leaning toward 1st, but have a lot of research to do. Unfortunately-- there are no K/1st splits at all in any of the areas we looked in.  I have talked to some really nice administrators though so that has potential!

[MJB]

I think you should go with 1st. They will be age-appropriate and pretty close to grade level in all areas.

My son is the same age, he did early K last year and will start 1st in the fall at 5y8m. His class is made up entirely of kids 6-18 mos. older (due to redshirting) but he fits in just fine even though he is small (44"). He is a little more advanced than your daughters, but based on your descriptions of them, they'd still be in the top half of his class, academically. 

I think if you end up doing K, you will need to do a lot of work to accommodate them, but if you do 1st, it should be much easier. 

Also, my oldest son, who is not gifted, started 1st without doing K (he was 6y8m though). He's going into 3rd now and doing well. At first, there were a few areas where he was behind, and others where he was ahead, but it all leveled out by the end of first grade. 

[RiverTam]

I'd put them in first. They have good academic skills and their age will be a match for their classmates. They'll be fine, although they might have a short adjustment to "doing school."

[emmaegbert]

This must happen where I live frequently b/c there is no parent-opted red-shirting allowed and K is not mandatory, and the cutoff is Dec 31. We would have had to put DS (Nov birthday) in GR1 no exceptions, we moved here in September and he had no formal academics whatsoever and had only been to a half-day waldorf school up until then. Now, we had the option for a scholarship to a private gifted school which uses an Oct 1 cutoff and so he ended up in K (the fate of fall birthday kids is to be in a grey area where there is not a consensus on what grade they belong in).

But in a district with a late and strictly-adhered to cutoff, there will be other young kids in the class. In our old city, there was a Dec 3 cutoff, but pretty much every boy after September 1 was held back a year voluntarily by parents. So, in that setting I think it would be harder to be at the young end of the official range, I would think. Here, its so rare, expecially in the early grades-- as they get older, kids transfer in and are placed via transcript not age, but for K and 1st, its strictly age.

They will need accommodation for physical issues no matter what grade they are in, and they won't be the only young kids in their grade. I am not sure the social adjustment will be that much different. Sounds like their academics are probably way ahead of what is expected by the end of K anyway.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by KCMichigan 
But we are moving--new state will allow then to enter 1st due to age placement. Areas all have 1/2 day K .Red-shirting does NOT happen (due to late cut off and 1/2 day programs). Kids are 4y8m to 5y8m at the start of K. If we do 1st they will be among the youngest at 5y 9m, but not THE youngest. No GT programming at all except AP at HS levels.

Issues: My kiddos would have never had done K if we do 1st grade placement. We will have recently moved. Lots of changes. DD2 may have trouble socially and possibly with the writing. DD1 would likely do fine once she picked up a few math skill 'gaps' but she will need an IEP for her physical disability.

[loraxc]

Could they go to K and then skip first, perhaps?

[Linda on the move]

We moved here last year-- two moves in two years is just tiring emotionally.I have very mixed feelings about moving to this new state so I think that bleeds into all other aspects, including future schooling for the girls.

You are so sweet. I keep telling myself that it will all work out and for DH it IS a wonderful fantastic opportunity- so I am happy for him and what it means for our family.

  I'm sorry you are going through this right now. I really can't imagine how tired you are.

It will all work out. It always does, even though sometimes in the middle it doesn't look like it will.

It's easy to look at the basic facts of someone else's situation and say what one thinks makes sense, but it's quite different to make a decision with your own babies and know they have to live with it.

My dd's anxiety and social delays are why I think that overall she is better off being one of the older rather than one of the younger kids, but we are fortunate to have great accommodations for her high IQ. Most of the time, I feel like we are doing the right thing, but I have moments of doubt. I think always knowing that one is doing EXACTLY the perfect thing is a luxury for parents of simplier  kids. The truth is that raising a 2E kid is just..... making stuff up as I go along and hoping that it works out OK for her. I don't know what is best. I just make guesses, and when things don't work, try something else. I don't really know what I'm doing.

We've moved several times for my DH's career and honestly, it s*cked. Yet, the silver lining of that is that we provide wonderful opportunities for kids, and because his income has continued to rise, we are very solid now in the teens years and looking forward to college. There has been a wonderful trade off for the kids.

Every single place we've lived I've met amazing people and my kids have had wonderful experiences. I've learned so much, and my kids have had rich lives. I find it helps to focus on the positives for my family, and to keep track of the little things each day that I have to be grateful for. 

[MomofSev]

My husband and I have talked about it. My husband is dead set against grade acceleration ..ever. I do understand his points and agree about the emotional intelligence not always matching the cognitive intelligence, or causing issues later on (like in middle school).

[joensally]

Originally Posted by MomofSev 

My husband and I have talked about it. My husband is dead set against grade acceleration ..ever. I do understand his points and agree about the emotional intelligence not always matching the cognitive intelligence, or causing issues later on (like in middle school).

Has he ever looked at the research on acceleration?  It comes out pretty solidly in favour of it for good candidates.  There's also the Iowa Acceleration Scale which parents and the school complete in order to ascertain if acceleration is likely to fit for an individual child.

If you're looking through old threads here you'll see a pretty even split between parents here who were accelerated and liked it and who didn't like it for themselves.  One mom here had multiple grade accelerations and it worked for her.  Many kids here have been accelerated, and many others are homeschooled.  Lockstep with age peers just doesn't work for lots of gifted children.

Another place to look is at the Davidson forum.

[MomofSev]

There is plenty of research for both aspects (for and against acceleration). Of course, I am sure he will change his outlook if it is ever obvious that it is the best choice for our son. We will have to see how things go as he enters school and receives testing results. It may or may not even be an issue in the private school we are considering enrolling him in (we have a meeting in August to tour the school).

[KCMichigan]

Originally Posted by loraxc 

Could they go to K and then skip first, perhaps?

This was one of our ideas...

I *wish* we could have done K this past year and first this year.. I have more worries about the straight  jump to 1st than the academic workload. It is more concerns of 'culture' shock from a play based format to a 100% academic than actual age/grade placement.

DD2 would  do best with a  gradual transition from play PreK to total academic 1st. She still needs some downtime/rest/play---that happens in the K class, but not the 1st.

Originally Posted by MomofSev 

My husband and I have talked about it. My husband is dead set against grade acceleration ..ever. I do understand his points and agree about the emotional intelligence not always matching the cognitive intelligence, or causing issues later on (like in middle school).

What we would be doing is not really grade acceleration. For my DD2 : grade advancing would not be a good option socially for her. Rather we are looking at what placement would be the best for our DDs : they would not be accelerated per classic definition. Though it is likely they will be subject area accelerated for some reading and/or math.

[MomofSev]

Originally Posted by KCMichigan 

What we would be doing is not really grade acceleration. For my DD2 : grade advancing would not be a good option socially for her. Rather we are looking at what placement would be the best for our DDs : they would not be accelerated per classic definition. Though it is likely they will be subject area accelerated for some reading and/or math.

I think this is what we may end up doing, is subject acceleration, not entire grade.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by MomofSev 

There is plenty of research for both aspects (for and against acceleration). Of course, I am sure he will change his outlook if it is ever obvious that it is the best choice for our son. We will have to see how things go as he enters school and receives testing results. It may or may not even be an issue in the private school we are considering enrolling him in (we have a meeting in August to tour the school).

Call me argumentative , but can you point me to the research against it?