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And Look How I Turned Out!

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 

When we tell people we're against corporal punishment, often they react negatively. They insist that because they were paddled at school, they turned out okay, and not in jail, and became a surgeon or something.

Okay. There may be something to this.

I stuck my finger into an electrical socket when I was four, now I'm a successful lawyer.

DH fell out of a tree. Now he's a successful development director.

What else contributed to your successes?  

post #2 of 36

duh.gif

 

I had Lyme disease in second grade and now I'm a homeschooling mom/student midwife. No wonder!

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

On a more serious note, I think that the "Look how I turned out" folks don't want to have to think that maybe their parents were doing something harmful, so they defend/continue the behavior.

post #3 of 36
edited because the thread took a more serious turn
Edited by marinak1977 - 6/23/11 at 11:50am
post #4 of 36

I'm struggling with how I want to reply or even if I want to reply.  Maybe I'm being overly literal.  I know this was supposed to be kind of a light hearted thread?  But it just makes me feel dark.  My mom straight beat my brother and I, usually with stick and hangers, ocassionally with a belt or her own hands.  She did all kinds of other really screwed up violent and mean things to us too.  And she didn't do it because she was an intrinsically bad person, but because she was struggling, and kind of broken, and she didn't have the tools or the upbringing or family help or situation to help her do otherwise.  She eventually did a little better.  Sometimes she still does worse.  I don't talk to her right now because she currently seems to want to offer up more violence for my daughter to see.  Maybe some day in the future I'll be able to set boundaries that allow us to see her.  Or maybe not.  Maybe we will never see her again.

 

But I don't want to make fun of her.  And if my brother were to say to me (and he might), "Mom hit us, and we turned out fine," I'd want to love him more.  Not make fun of him for how stupid and unaware he was.  Not even on the internet. 

 

6:41 pm edit for a little clarity:  I actually do think I turned out alright, all things considered, even though I won't choose the same path for raising my own child.  I am in therapy so that I will learn better ways of dealing with stress and conflict.  I wasn't trying to raise sympathy for myself.  I wasn't really clear, I guess, but the dark feeling I got was because I was a little uncomfortable with the tone of sarcasm in the OP, which felt anything but like compassion for a person who might say, "My parents hit me and I turned out fine, so it must be ok."  I guess I can easily imagine what it would be like to be a person who might say something like that because before I had my daughter, I was a person who said things like that.

 

I guess the idea that this is a logic failure for people who have direct experience with being hit as a child is sort of jarring. (I mean obviously this is not about logic.  This is about your parents.  This is about emotions and patterns set in childhood.  This is about what most people consciously or not experience as the foundations of their beings.  A PP nailed it.)  And then - there's my DP whose parents spanked (not beat) him and his siblings.  And they did it largely without the scary out of control emotional component.  He is completely on board with my "no-hitting thing" and is the gentlest guy I know.  He is that "playful parent" - that "gentle discipline" dad - but he's never read a parenting book.  But he also says he thinks he turned out fine.  I won't hold him in contempt just because he doesn't want to see what his parents did as wrong, and I won't see what my parents did as right.  And a lot of that is a difference of degrees between what his parents did and what mine did, but a lot is probably also a difference in personality between him and I.  I don't know if I can really say what I am trying to say so I will stop now and tend to dinner.  :)

 

 


Edited by cyclamen - 6/22/11 at 4:36pm
post #5 of 36

When people say "We did _____ and we are fine" I always retort with "That's nice, but I dont want my kid to be just fine, I want her to be great."

 

Now this being said, I ended up being an analytical chemist when all was said and done, but that was after a lot of partying and drugs, from about the age of 14, with parents that never disciplined me for anything. I got slapped across the face a couple times when I tried to stab a girl with a butterknife at age 9, when she wouldnt get off my swingset. That is the only reprimand I have ever had, and I turned out "fine". While I didnt swing the pendulum the other way to corporal punishment for my DD, I do discipline her. I do give her structure, and routine.

 

I constantly tell people we turn out they way we are sometimes BECAUSE of the way we were raised, and sometimes IN SPITE of it.

 

The thread does have a bit of a dark tone for me as well.

post #6 of 36

I got a few rug burns.  Now  I understand friction.

 

I ran down a very steep hill... much too steep.  Now I understand math a little better.

 

I got lost in Downtown Chicago, and I learned to pay attention to directions. (and bus signs) I learned to use landmarks.  

 

My brother talked me into sticking my tongue on a 6 volt battery.  (several times)  I learned that he can be a jerk, and I shouldn't do whatever he says without thinking about it first.   90% of the time, he was right, but that 10% of the time, I was expected to listen to my inner voice.  

 

 

post #7 of 36
I could be Debbie Downer but instead I will say, I grew up an inner city street kid and now I garden! It's awesome.
post #8 of 36

I'm not successful yet, so I use, "I was [insert something my parents did that I disagree with], and look how I turned out!"


Works best with anything that's allegedly related, e.g. spanking and violence issues, school and career success, etc.

post #9 of 36

I haaaaaaaaaaaaaate it when people say that.  A lot of times they're not fine.  I have so many friends who had parents that did CIO and then their parents tell them to do CIO when they have kids  b/c they turned out fine.  Fine if not being able to sleep alone, can't sleep without white noise, insomnia, nightmares and inability to sleep without sleeping pills is fine.

post #10 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey693 View Post

I haaaaaaaaaaaaaate it when people say that.  A lot of times they're not fine.  I have so many friends who had parents that did CIO and then their parents tell them to do CIO when they have kids  b/c they turned out fine.  Fine if not being able to sleep alone, can't sleep without white noise, insomnia, nightmares and inability to sleep without sleeping pills is fine.



You're really going to attribute that to CIO?? Seriously? My husband has PTSD, a psychological condition, can't sleep without white noise, insomnia, nightmares and all you described. It has nothing to do with CIO. Where are the studies that attribute these to CIO? I'm not endorsing CIO, I've not practiced it with my kids, but this seems like an insane leap to make. And if kids are being prescribed sleeping pills, I highly doubt it's because of CIO.

 

post #11 of 36

Spinning OT here:

 

I am not trying to be snarky or downplay the severity and seriousness of PTSD and whatever reasons your husband suffers from it. It must  have been an awful experience. hug.gif

But here's a thought- maybe CIO actually results in PTSD for some babies and kids and then leads them to need the same measures that your DH does to sleep? It's possible. Don't you think? 

One of the many reasons I am against CIO is because we just don't know what kind of deleterious effects it has. Who knows if our anxiety, depression, dependency problems, behaviour/social issues etc. could stem from that fragile period of time? 

 

 

post #12 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by expat-mama View Post

Spinning OT here:

 

I am not trying to be snarky or downplay the severity and seriousness of PTSD and whatever reasons your husband suffers from it. It must  have been an awful experience. hug.gif

But here's a thought- maybe CIO actually results in PTSD for some babies and kids and then leads them to need the same measures that your DH does to sleep? It's possible. Don't you think? 

One of the many reasons I am against CIO is because we just don't know what kind of deleterious effects it has. Who knows if our anxiety, depression, dependency problems, behaviour/social issues etc. could stem from that fragile period of time? 

 

 


Uhm.  Maybe some of us have PTSD because we were raped, beaten, abandoned, etc.  Seriously.  Humans are highly adaptable and very given to survive.  The idea that we are delicate snowflakes who will melt at the slightest issue really bugs the shit out of me.  Could we stop acting as if ANY MOMENT THAT MAKES US UNCOMFORTABLE is abuse?  

 

Oy.

 

post #13 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lydiah View Post

When people say "We did _____ and we are fine" I always retort with "That's nice, but I dont want my kid to be just fine, I want her to be great."

 


Thank you!  That's what I say, too. 

 

Besides, I would argue with plenty of adults' definitions of "fine".  Just because you have a good-paying job does not mean you have good sense or that you are a good/loving/kind/ethical person.

 

Seems like even posters on this thread are not aware of that. 

post #14 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by rightkindofme View Post




Uhm.  Maybe some of us have PTSD because we were raped, beaten, abandoned, etc.  Seriously.  Humans are highly adaptable and very given to survive.  The idea that we are delicate snowflakes who will melt at the slightest issue really bugs the shit out of me.  Could we stop acting as if ANY MOMENT THAT MAKES US UNCOMFORTABLE is abuse?  

 

Oy.

 

While I agree that any uncomfortable moment does not equal abuse, I'm not sure what your point is. 

 

Are you saying that CIO is an "uncomfortable moment" for a baby and therefore not abuse?

 

Are you annoyed that anyone would equate PTSD with CIO?

 

What are you trying to say in this quote?
 

 

post #15 of 36

I most definately relate my sleeping troubles to how I was "trained" to sleep as a baby/child. I remember as late as 5 screaming in my bed in the dark and quiet until I fell asleep, night after night. No one ever came to help me. I was terrified, I saw Satan's face in the patterns of the wall(I was abused in the name of gawd and thought I was bad and the devil was watching me), monsters in the curtains, I had to pee but wasn't allowed to get out of the bed, and in the morning when I had wet the bed I got "spanked" with the belt. To this day I feel panicky towards bedtime and lay in the bed, awake for hours. I get up to pee over and over. Being treated that way at night, left to cry night after night, I definately believe influences how we are even as adults. The only way I can handle bedtime in a mentally healthy way is to be exhausted from pregnancy or taking sleeping pills. So I just suffer.

 

My mother has told me a few times she knows she did *some* things wrong but we turned out ok- yes, one of her children is an alcoholic who refused step up and father his children for years even though he is married to their mother and lives with them and the other child ran away as a teenager and and is still lost as a mother to teenagers. I do my best but it's really scary and I tended to go overboard on the GP thing.

 

When I see adults saying, "I was spanked and I turned out ok!" I point out that, "But now you hit your own kids!" I also have a problem with punishing kids in God's name, shepherds did not beat their sheep with rods, they guided them. But these parents are so excited to hurt their kids they claim the bible says to hurt them with the rod. I still remember the look on my mom's face as she raced around trying to find my dad's belt. She seemed excited. She never moved so quick as when she was looking for that damned belt. When I got old enough I rejected all things religious and left home.

post #16 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by expat-mama View Post

Spinning OT here:

 

I am not trying to be snarky or downplay the severity and seriousness of PTSD and whatever reasons your husband suffers from it. It must  have been an awful experience. hug.gif

But here's a thought- maybe CIO actually results in PTSD for some babies and kids and then leads them to need the same measures that your DH does to sleep? It's possible. Don't you think? 

One of the many reasons I am against CIO is because we just don't know what kind of deleterious effects it has. Who knows if our anxiety, depression, dependency problems, behaviour/social issues etc. could stem from that fragile period of time? 

 

 



No, I dont' think that CIO results in PTSD in babies. Not even close. I think that there are mothers out there who are at the end of their rope, sleep deprived and suffering from PPD and other serious mental disorders because of the lack of sleep. I think that these mothers use CIO as a means to gain some sleep and clarity. I do not liken setting your child down, in a safe place, while observing, to cry, abuse. I will not heap more guilt on these mothers by making the leap that CIO leads to PTSD. At all. There have been real and true studies done on PPD and how if effects a mother AND a child. I have yet to see a study linking CIO to PTSD. PTSD results from true trauma and has lasting effects. It's offensive to make the leap that something like letting a child cry would cause such long and lasting effects. Without proof.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by purplerose View Post

I most definately relate my sleeping troubles to how I was "trained" to sleep as a baby/child. I remember as late as 5 screaming in my bed in the dark and quiet until I fell asleep, night after night. No one ever came to help me. I was terrified, I saw Satan's face in the patterns of the wall(I was abused in the name of gawd and thought I was bad and the devil was watching me), monsters in the curtains, I had to pee but wasn't allowed to get out of the bed, and in the morning when I had wet the bed I got "spanked" with the belt. To this day I feel panicky towards bedtime and lay in the bed, awake for hours. I get up to pee over and over. Being treated that way at night, left to cry night after night, I definately believe influences how we are even as adults. The only way I can handle bedtime in a mentally healthy way is to be exhausted from pregnancy or taking sleeping pills. So I just suffer.

 

My mother has told me a few times she knows she did *some* things wrong but we turned out ok- yes, one of her children is an alcoholic who refused step up and father his children for years even though he is married to their mother and lives with them and the other child ran away as a teenager and and is still lost as a mother to teenagers. I do my best but it's really scary and I tended to go overboard on the GP thing.

 

When I see adults saying, "I was spanked and I turned out ok!" I point out that, "But now you hit your own kids!" I also have a problem with punishing kids in God's name, shepherds did not beat their sheep with rods, they guided them. But these parents are so excited to hurt their kids they claim the bible says to hurt them with the rod. I still remember the look on my mom's face as she raced around trying to find my dad's belt. She seemed excited. She never moved so quick as when she was looking for that damned belt. When I got old enough I rejected all things religious and left home.



I'm sorry for the abuse you endured. There's no excuse for someone to treat a child the way that you were.

 

post #17 of 36


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixMommaToTwo View Post

No, I dont' think that CIO results in PTSD in babies. Not even close. I think that there are mothers out there who are at the end of their rope, sleep deprived and suffering from PPD and other serious mental disorders because of the lack of sleep. I think that these mothers use CIO as a means to gain some sleep and clarity. I do not liken setting your child down, in a safe place, while observing, to cry, abuse. I will not heap more guilt on these mothers by making the leap that CIO leads to PTSD. At all. There have been real and true studies done on PPD and how if effects a mother AND a child. I have yet to see a study linking CIO to PTSD. PTSD results from true trauma and has lasting effects. It's offensive to make the leap that something like letting a child cry would cause such long and lasting effects. Without proof.


Researchers from Harvard disagree with you.

 

 

The pair [Michael L. Commons and Patrice M. Miller, researchers at the Medical School's Department of Psychiatry] examined childrearing practices here and in other cultures and say the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds -- even separate rooms -- and not responding quickly to their cries may lead to incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders when these children reach adulthood.
 
The early stress resulting from separation causes changes in infant brains that makes future adults more susceptible to stress in their lives, say Commons and Miller.
 
"Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily harms the baby permanently," Commons said. "It changes the nervous system so they're overly sensitive to future trauma."
 
Now, it's talking about correlation, which is not proof of causation. But where's your proof that CIO cannot cause lasting effects? I think it's offensive to make the leap that something negative that happened to a person could not possibly be "true trauma" but merely "uncomfortable," something only "delicate snowflakes" would be harmed by. Without proof.
 
Really imagine yourself in the shoes of a person that's happening to (i.e. the baby). Keep in mind that babies younger than 8-12 months old do not have object permanence, meaning if they they cannot see/hear/etc something (including their mother), they can't help but believe that it no longer exists.

 

post #18 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post

My brother talked me into sticking my tongue on a 6 volt battery.  (several times)  I learned that he can be a jerk, and I shouldn't do whatever he says without thinking about it first.   90% of the time, he was right, but that 10% of the time, I was expected to listen to my inner voice.  

 

 


My brothers did that too! Except a 9V battery. 

 

I usually hear "Well, I survived" about car seats, bike helmets, etc. Yeah, we didn't do it when it wasn't an option (some of the cars we had when I was a kid didn't even have seat belts in the back seat) but I think most people would have used car seats in the 60's and 70's had they been widely available. My mom has said she wishes she had had carseats, esp. when we were babies. She said it was a big pain to go anywhere.

 

post #19 of 36

 

Quote:
When I see adults saying, "I was spanked and I turned out ok!" I point out that, "But now you hit your own kids!"

That's not really a good argument, though. It's like saying "You breastfed your kid until she was three and swore it wouldn't do any damage, but she grew up to breastfed HER child until he was three too". If people really believe spanking isn't harmful, the fact that successive generations do it will hardly be seen as proof that it is.

 

I don't see that it's absurd to link CIO - at least, aggressive CIO on babies who don't adapt quickly to it - with PTSD-like symptoms or other long-lasting neurobiological changes. We know that babies in a constant state of stress are unable to learn well, and that's a pretty long-term consequence; it sounds kind of wishy-washy at first blush, but there's good research behind it. Flooding a baby's brain with cortisol and adrenaline frequently over a long-term basis does something to the functioning of said brain, and that has nothing to do with babies being "special snowflakes".

post #20 of 36

I don't think you can make a correlation between discipline (unless it solidly trespasses into the "abuse" zone) and future adult behavior.  Because it is true, most people who were spanked turn out ok.  That doesn't mean it's a good thing to do though or that it should be encouraged. 

 

I have often wondered why some cultures that practice the basics of AP (co sleeping, baby wearing, extended BFing) are some of the most violent on earth.  I just don't think you can make correlations... but I choose not to physically discipline my kids because it feels wrong to me, not because I think it will turn them into well rounded adults.

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