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And Look How I Turned Out! - Page 2

post #21 of 36

I also wonder about the reverse judgement that especially moms must face from all quarters:  OH...your kids wouldn't have (whined/cried/hit another kid when they're 2/got addicted to something/mental illness/worked for Lockheed Martin) unless you were a monstrous, neglectful, abusive parent!

post #22 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixMommaToTwo View Post





No, I dont' think that CIO results in PTSD in babies. Not even close. I think that there are mothers out there who are at the end of their rope, sleep deprived and suffering from PPD and other serious mental disorders because of the lack of sleep. I think that these mothers use CIO as a means to gain some sleep and clarity. I do not liken setting your child down, in a safe place, while observing, to cry, abuse. I will not heap more guilt on these mothers by making the leap that CIO leads to PTSD. At all. There have been real and true studies done on PPD and how if effects a mother AND a child. I have yet to see a study linking CIO to PTSD. PTSD results from true trauma and has lasting effects. It's offensive to make the leap that something like letting a child cry would cause such long and lasting effects. Without proof.

 





I'm sorry for the abuse you endured. There's no excuse for someone to treat a child the way that you were.

 

This is getting a bit close to advocation or justification of CIO. Not quite there, but close.

 

I'm sorry if I offended you, I was just sharing my own thoughts which don't require proof, because they are just my thoughts and I was quite clear about that in my post. You are free to think that CIO doesn't result in PTSD- and don't worry, I won't ask you for proof that you think so. winky.gif

And actually, if you do go to the nighttime parenting board resources there are a number of articles that don't say CIO leads to PTSD but do examine the psychological and emotional consequences that I think could be compared to PTSD in some ways (meaning they are lasting negative emotional and psychological effects).
 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyllya View Post

Researchers from Harvard disagree with you.

 

 

The pair [Michael L. Commons and Patrice M. Miller, researchers at the Medical School's Department of Psychiatry] examined childrearing practices here and in other cultures and say the widespread American practice of putting babies in separate beds -- even separate rooms -- and not responding quickly to their cries may lead to incidents of post-traumatic stress and panic disorders when these children reach adulthood.

 


Thanks. I'll have to read this.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rightkindofme View Post




Uhm.  Maybe some of us have PTSD because we were raped, beaten, abandoned, etc.  Seriously.  Humans are highly adaptable and very given to survive.  The idea that we are delicate snowflakes who will melt at the slightest issue really bugs the shit out of me.  Could we stop acting as if ANY MOMENT THAT MAKES US UNCOMFORTABLE is abuse?  

 

Oy.

 

"Uhm"- sorry you are bugged. I'm bugged by your sarcastic tone. Just because humans will adapt to horrific situations doesn't mean that they should have to. No one here is saying that any moment of discomfort is abuse. Now that's a leap.

 

 

I'll return your "oy" to you. orngtongue.gif
 

 

 

post #23 of 36

" I think that there are mothers out there who are at the end of their rope, sleep deprived and suffering from PPD and other serious mental disorders because of the lack of sleep. I think that these mothers use CIO as a means to gain some sleep and clarity. I do not liken setting your child down, in a safe place, while observing, to cry, abuse."

 

My quote function isn't working eyesroll.gif

 

The above isn't CIO though, is it. I have never seen anything but agreement on this forum that separating yourself from your child when you're at the end of your rope is a *much* better thing to do than hurting the child or having a complete meltdown yourself. It is a decision not made in a moment of stress but the implementation of a parenting plan.  It may be tried as a last resort by some (?many) parents but it is not the same as a one-off episode of just needing to get away from the crying.

 

And there is plenty of research emerging that CIO can contribute to stress-related problems in later life, including hypertension, depression and other problems. Children *are* resilient. Everything I have read says that one or two instances of leaving to cry (end of your rope scenarios) are not going to cause a problem in the long-term. What *is* a problem is the prolonged exposure to stress hormones that occurs when a child is left alone to cry, uncomforted, night after night in order to "teach them how to sleep alone". That is CIO and there isn't really a way to spin it in order to protect the feelings of "sensitive snowflake" parents.

post #24 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by katelove View Post

" I think that there are mothers out there who are at the end of their rope, sleep deprived and suffering from PPD and other serious mental disorders because of the lack of sleep. I think that these mothers use CIO as a means to gain some sleep and clarity. I do not liken setting your child down, in a safe place, while observing, to cry, abuse."

 

My quote function isn't working eyesroll.gif

 

The above isn't CIO though, is it. I have never seen anything but agreement on this forum that separating yourself from your child when you're at the end of your rope is a *much* better thing to do than hurting the child or having a complete meltdown yourself. It is a decision not made in a moment of stress but the implementation of a parenting plan.  It may be tried as a last resort by some (?many) parents but it is not the same as a one-off episode of just needing to get away from the crying.


I agree.  To me putting your kid down and letting them scream b/c otherwise you're going to lose your shit on them isn't CIO.  It's the safest of two options which cannot be said when you're sleep training CIO.

 

post #25 of 36

So it sounds like we are getting closer to a definition of "cry it out".  Because so far I haven't really understood exactly what people mean.  So when people say CIO is wrong they are saying that leaving your kid to scream themselves to sleep *every single night* is a problem.  What if it's once a week?  Once a month?  Every other night?  I'm slightly being snarky, but only a little.

 

I get really frustrated with this topic because most people who know my mother think she was a "good mother".  But she helped/permitted her kids to be heinously abused.  But she didn't leave us to cry it out.  So I guess I shouldn't be screwed up?  I counter that the kind of person who can stand to listen to their kid scream night after night after night after night is probably the kind of person who is doing much worse things during the day.  It's not like night time parenting is in a vacuum away from all other parenting.  

 

Elevated stress is a problem, yes.  But people survive situations far far worse on a daily basis and really and truly do turn out ok.  No, I don't take that as a blank check to hurt my kids.  But I think I have a lot less responsibility for how they turn out than people here posit.  If my mother had her way I would be a drug addict with many kids out of wedlock living in poverty.  But I'm not.  Because I have some responsibility for how I turn out.  

 

I think that you shouldn't abuse your kids/ignore their needs/be a raging jerk day in day out because it's just not a nice thing to do.  Not because OHMYGOD your kids will be destroyed if you do.  They might be.  They might not be.  I don't actually have control over that.  What I have control over is the fact that if I'm a jerk day in and day out it's not very pleasant to live my life.  And I'd kind of like to have a pleasant life.  Because I get to control how my life goes (in the main).  

 

I think that CIO is a symbol of other problems, not the problem.  Which is to say, no I don't think it's a great thing to do.  But I'm not going to flagellate someone for doing the best they can.  Even if their best doesn't always look like my best.

post #26 of 36

 

Quote:
I counter that the kind of person who can stand to listen to their kid scream night after night after night after night is probably the kind of person who is doing much worse things during the day.  It's not like night time parenting is in a vacuum away from all other parenting.

I don't think it's as simple as that. People who think CIO is beneficial/necessary/good parenting will often do it even if it tortures them to hear their kids cry: just like parents might "force" their kids to undergo chemo or go to school when they don't want to, because they believe the greater good outweighs the child's pain or discomfort. It's not that CIO parents are angels during the day and monsters at night. Heck, my parents briefly tried sleep-training with my little sister, not because they wanted to hear her cry, but because they felt they were being lazy for cosleeping and "should" do CIO like "real" parents. (Mum was thrilled when I had DD and started talking about cosleeping - she'd never realised it was a legitimate parenting technique with research behind it, she'd always just assumed she was a bad mother!)

post #27 of 36

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lydiah View Post

When people say "We did _____ and we are fine" I always retort with "That's nice, but I dont want my kid to be just fine, I want her to be great."


This reminds me of when I was watching a Real Housewives of Orange County reunion last week redface.gif and one of them was talking about how "well" her 20-something son is doing. She said something like, "I'm really proud of him. He's not in jail, he hasn't had any babies, and he's not on drugs." Uhhhm, yay...?

post #28 of 36


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post

 

I don't think it's as simple as that. People who think CIO is beneficial/necessary/good parenting will often do it even if it tortures them to hear their kids cry: just like parents might "force" their kids to undergo chemo or go to school when they don't want to, because they believe the greater good outweighs the child's pain or discomfort. It's not that CIO parents are angels during the day and monsters at night. Heck, my parents briefly tried sleep-training with my little sister, not because they wanted to hear her cry, but because they felt they were being lazy for cosleeping and "should" do CIO like "real" parents. (Mum was thrilled when I had DD and started talking about cosleeping - she'd never realised it was a legitimate parenting technique with research behind it, she'd always just assumed she was a bad mother!)


After DS was born, my grandmother told me about sleep training my mother.  She used to sit on the floor outside the nursery, sobbing, while my mother was crying.  I'm not saying that my grandparents were always ideal parents, but the only thing their using CIO was a symptom of was their faith in What The Experts Think Is Best.

post #29 of 36
Quote:View Post

I think that you shouldn't abuse your kids/ignore their needs/be a raging jerk day in day out because it's just not a nice thing to do.  Not because OHMYGOD your kids will be destroyed if you do.  They might be.  They might not be.  I don't actually have control over that.  What I have control over is the fact that if I'm a jerk day in and day out it's not very pleasant to live my life.  And I'd kind of like to have a pleasant life. Because I get to control how my life goes (in the main).  

 

 


This. ^

 

Why are children only valued for how they might "turn out"?

 

I don't clobber my mother-in-law because studies show it could cause her to have low self-esteem and could increase the likelyhood that at some point she may become aggressive. *sarcastic smiley*
 

 

post #30 of 36

LOL well to be fair considering how he was in the past seasons it is a good thing. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by limabean View Post

 


This reminds me of when I was watching a Real Housewives of Orange County reunion last week redface.gif and one of them was talking about how "well" her 20-something son is doing. She said something like, "I'm really proud of him. He's not in jail, he hasn't had any babies, and he's not on drugs." Uhhhm, yay...?



 

post #31 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by rightkindofme View Post

So it sounds like we are getting closer to a definition of "cry it out".  Because so far I haven't really understood exactly what people mean.  So when people say CIO is wrong they are saying that leaving your kid to scream themselves to sleep *every single night* is a problem.  What if it's once a week?  Once a month?  Every other night?  I'm slightly being snarky, but only a little.

 

 


I think anytime you make a decision to leave your child to cry uncomforted because you think it is teaching them some useful life lesson then you are practicing CIO. 

 

And I do think it is a problem in itself but it can also be a symptom of a bigger problem. IME the bigger problem is parents getting bad advice and/or not listening to their instincts. I don't think CIO is always, or even often, a flag for abuse. It is a widely recognised, accepted, supported and encouraged parenting practice in the wider world. And I agree with PPs that most parents find it difficult to implement but do so because they believe that it is benefiting (or at least not harming) their child.

 

I guess I'm not really sure what your point is with your last post. "You shouldn't be screwed up" because your mother didn't practice CIO? Well there are plenty of ways to mistreat a child. I'm certainly not saying do anything you like and it's all fine because you didn't CIO. But just because other things are bad doesn't make CIO ok either.

post #32 of 36

I'm not sure what people mean when they say that a parenting technique is or is not "ok".  To whom?  By what standard?  What exactly does that mean?  Because CIO is not abuse.  It just isn't.  No CPS agent is going to take away a baby from a family practicing the Ferber technique if they are otherwise excellently caring for their child.  It seems like the vast majority of people on this site don't like it, and they think people shouldn't do it (totally reasonably!) but that still doesn't make it "not ok".  

 

Does that make sense?  To me "not ok" is you don't beat them.  That's absolutely completely over the line.  But how do you evaluate the things that are more muddy?  What does "not ok" mean exactly? 

 

I swear I am not advocating CIO or being a troll.  This is something I wrestle with.  My 10 month cries the same way if I put her in the pack n play for 15 minutes or if I have a drink in front of her without sharing.  Is one of those occasions horribly traumatic and I am a terrible mother and the other is fine?  Or am I always evil and I just don't know it?

post #33 of 36

I was horribly abused and beaten on a regular basis as well as told how much I was hated and unwanted when I was growing up. I am insecure and needy. I always think people don't like me. I don't know if I am right. I treat my children well and love them very much. End does not justify the means though. And if my being abused is ok, then my treating my children well and loving on them must not mean much either.

post #34 of 36

For me, CIO is "not ok" because it causes developmental trauma. There's a big difference between the times when your kid cries because they can't have something they want and the times when they have a need for something like food, comfort, or affection and they are left to cry for an extended period of time until they go into a dissociative state of consciousness. If a child has a series of unhealed developmental traumas, it can lead to problems when they get older like mood disorders or difficulty with inter-personal relationships. 

 

Speaking from personal experience, there are a lot of ways you can harm your kids without ever beating them. Obviously, CPS isn't going to come knocking on your door for doing CIO, but that's a pretty low bar there. But if you want to raise your kids to be as emotionally healthy as possible, CIO is "not ok".

post #35 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by miami mommy View Post

For me, CIO is "not ok" because it causes developmental trauma. There's a big difference between the times when your kid cries because they can't have something they want and the times when they have a need for something like food, comfort, or affection and they are left to cry for an extended period of time until they go into a dissociative state of consciousness. If a child has a series of unhealed developmental traumas, it can lead to problems when they get older like mood disorders or difficulty with inter-personal relationships. 

 

Speaking from personal experience, there are a lot of ways you can harm your kids without ever beating them. Obviously, CPS isn't going to come knocking on your door for doing CIO, but that's a pretty low bar there. But if you want to raise your kids to be as emotionally healthy as possible, CIO is "not ok".


Yes!

 

post #36 of 36

Actually, sometimes they will. When ds1 was 11 months and a complete zombie from lack of sleep, I tried CIO for a couple hours during the day in a desperate attempt to try to get the poor kids some desperately needed sleep, 2 days in a row. After the 2nd time (using the supposedly gentle pick up put down method) when he was a complete sobbing wreck, I decided I'd never do that again. 2 days later, 2 social workers were on my door step to check on ds. They said it was because someone had reported he wasn't being fed but...yeah, it was the crying.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by miami mommy View Post
Obviously, CPS isn't going to come knocking on your door for doing CIO, but that's a pretty low bar there. But if you want to raise your kids to be as emotionally healthy as possible, CIO is "not ok".


 

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